[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Captbob

I see no difference at all between the type of "hand bite" that Cesar does, and using a choke collar or prong collar and a leash.

If I'm not mistaken, the choke collar and prong collar came before "dominance" theories existed. And I'm sure you're aware "dominance" techniques (like using your hand to simulate a bite) derived from studying wolf packs, and only a small percentage of wolf life at that. Techniques like, and the alpha roll, are misplaced simply because our dogs are not wolves, and do not mimic wolf behavior. They are superficially similar, but not even the same species. So what do those people do if they don't believe in dominance theories do? They aim for cooperative training using motivations other than fear, and guide the dog with leadership and communication more applicable to dog behavior.

So although Cesar may not choose to alpha roll a dog every episode, he often does do leash corrections, and neck jabs. Again, it looks perfect to be "made for tv," but these types of techniques are a last resort at best, and are largely unnecessary. If you don't believe the rocket scientist, ask Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, or Virginia Woolf, just to name a few non-rocket scientists. However, you'll never get from A to B unless you actually study the relevance of dominance theories, and actual dog group behavior, including the evolution of our beloved companions.

BTW, I watch the show any chance I can...but only for the entertainment, and because there aren't enough dog shows on TV.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

If I'm not mistaken, the choke collar and prong collar came before "dominance" theories existed. And I'm sure you're aware "dominance" techniques (like using your hand to simulate a bite) derived from studying wolf packs, and only a small percentage of wolf life at that. Techniques like, and the alpha roll, are misplaced simply because our dogs are not wolves, and do not mimic wolf behavior. They are superficially similar, but not even the same species. So what do those people do if they don't believe in dominance theories do? They aim for cooperative training using motivations other than fear, and guide the dog with leadership and communication more applicable to dog behavior.

So although Cesar may not choose to alpha roll a dog every episode, he often does do leash corrections, and neck jabs. Again, it looks perfect to be "made for tv," but these types of techniques are a last resort at best, and are largely unnecessary. If you don't believe the rocket scientist, ask Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, or Virginia Woolf, just to name a few non-rocket scientists. However, you'll never get from A to B unless you actually study the relevance of dominance theories, and actual dog group behavior, including the evolution of our beloved companions.

BTW, I watch the show any chance I can...but only for the entertainment, and because there aren't enough dog shows on TV.

If that is all true, how come trainers using the methods recommended by these "modern experts" can't seem to help the dogs that Cesar wiinds up with. In just about every episode, the dogs that Cesar helps have been to multiple trainers who gave up, or told them they should euthanize the dog. Cesar fixes the problem. I will say it again, if there are so many great trainers out there, why doesn't one of them get their own show and demonstrate how they can do it " better than Cesar"? If you are going to wait for this to happen, I wouldn't hold your breath. It is really easy to criticize someone else, when you don't have to demonstrate how you can do a better job of it.

[cshellenberger]

If you read the article I posted from the San Fran paper you'll seee that Ian Dunbar has had shows. They just weren't flashy enough for the American public. Cesar makes dog training look glamorous, it isn't. It's tedious and repetative. I'll bet if the people who went to several trainers before Cesar were honest, they didn't follow through on what the trainer instructed. You can't go to a trainer once a week and not followup at home. I wonder how many of those dogs have fallen back into the bad habits because the owners have not followed through with Cesars advice either.

[Curbside Prophet]

Because your average jo blo trainer doesn't have the study or the degree in animal behavior like those that I named. I doubt the nameless people you refer to even knew what kind of credentials a behaviorist should have. Again, like Cesar's show, this points to the ignorance of the owner. One TV series does not make a trainer good. If that's your criteria for a good trainer, I find that laughable. Instead of defending the "wizardry" of Cesar, why not attend a seminar by the trainers that I mentioned, and see their approaches yourself. I'm sure you'll be equally mystified by their wizardry too. I don't need a TV show to demonstrate how I need to train a dog. I need fundamentals in sound theory, and methods that are applicable to me and just about every companion dog. I don't need some self proclaimed "whisperer" telling me and showing me how an alpha wolf dominants other members of the pack. I can pick up a dog training book from the 60's to do that.

He's right on some things like setting boundaries, being calm and assertive, but those are all the qualities of being a leader, not of a alpha dog displaying dominance. Who knew NILIF was an applicable fundamental for dogs? *waves hand*

BTW, I don't discredit the dogs he does help, I think that's great. Many of the same pitbulls you run away from at the dog park, he helps rehabilitate with his dog group. However, to those who understand the role of the alpha dog in a dog group, watching someone who still believes in dominance theories, is frustrating. Because the same people who claim to have failed with other trainers are also calling trainers complaining that they've tried what Cesar does, but it doesn't work, and in some cases these people are bitten. Thus the disclaimer. Owners are ignorant, with or without Cesar's show.

Another btw, I've never seen or heard the behaviorists that I mentioned openly criticize Cesar. In fact, I've only heard them say the similar things to what many of us have been saying, but only when asked...that he's intuitive, but dominance theories are out of place.

Again, if you want to see other techniques demonstrated, be proactive and attend a seminar. Heck, attend one by Cesar, and one by Jean, and compare. To me this is much more proactive than Tivo-ing a neck jabbing "whisperer."

[KarenS46]

Cesar's methods work for me, I have never had to resort to the alpha roll, but many of his other methods have worked for me. I have a sensitive breed that seeks to please and I have well behaved dogs and that says it all for me.

[Alpha]

Captbob, I would LOVE to hear what parts they disagree with.

Keeping in mind that MOST canine units use positive reinforcement/shaping methods now, even for the more agressive, bite work, and MOST DEFINITELY are using shaping/positive methods for scent work. (Most k9 cops are toy driven for scent work now)

People that use those types of tools with, excuse my language, feed you crap by hand to defend their use of those tools. Period. I've seen it done here. (I know people that use prongs for bite work, (which is about the only sport/activity where I personally think it should ever be used) while I understand why they do, even when I eventually do get involved with bite work, personally, I'll be using an agitation collar, no matter how big my dog is)

Besides, most people here are average pet owners, so I have no idea why you'd be planning on using any of those tools, because I can guarentee the average pet owned dog does NOT require those tools.

I agree cshellenbuger and curbside.

I have to reiterate, and as my name implies, especially in our household, leadership on my part, is *very* important. I did not achieve my place in this household, by alpha rolling my dog or biting her in the neck, or as some people have done, quite literally holding her down and actually biting her ear etc.

I controlled her resources, we worked together, working with your dogs is a GREAT way to build bonds and trust. NOTHING physical, and Roxy is the definition of a dominant dog. Not, she's dominant right now, but if given the chance, she'd take over in a heartbeat.

She's a prime example of why the new methods work, and why the old ones do not.

And as for the length of the show, I see it all the time, and it's always an hour long program, perhaps where I am it's so unfortunately popular that they've increased the length of the show.

I believe it's the National Geographic channel? I'll have to double check, usually I try not to watch too much of it, and pass by it on the guide list cursing a bit.

I think what's most important with "dog stuff" is instead of just regurgitating what you've heard, or what "so and so" told you last week about said topic, LEARN ABOUT it yourself.

Don't take anyone's word, no matter their degree/experience as the gospel.

While they can give you good information, it's up to you, to research it yourself and in general apply it to what you've hopefully already learned.

My trainer is awesome. People at our school have countless titles. Do I do everything she says? No!

I used a method from a lady her on the internet for the retrieve on my guys and it worked fabulously!

Now, I love my trainer, but she was not happy with me. Of course not! I pay her, and I didn't use her method! Although she did admit it worked quite well, she still will not tell other people at school how I did it, same with the drop.

You'll find in the dog world, people are quite stubborn. Not willing to give up their methods for the new ones. Even if the new ones work better.

But it's something you'll have to find out on your own...

ETA- I HAD to add, if I were to speak with these police officers who train k9's, I would HAVE to ask, why they use a prong... I mean, what... are you not strong enough to restrain the dog with an agiation collar??!!? ROFL

Most likely they'll reply they use it to administer corrections, but I'd have to say it... LMAO

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Alpha

Captbob, I would LOVE to hear what parts they disagree with.

Keeping in mind that MOST canine units use positive reinforcement/shaping methods now, even for the more agressive, bite work, and MOST DEFINITELY are using shaping/positive methods for scent work. (Most k9 cops are toy driven for scent work now)

People that use those types of tools with, excuse my language, feed you crap by hand to defend their use of those tools. Period. I've seen it done here. (I know people that use prongs for bite work, (which is about the only sport/activity where I personally think it should ever be used) while I understand why they do, even when I eventually do get involved with bite work, personally, I'll be using an agitation collar, no matter how big my dog is)

Besides, most people here are average pet owners, so I have no idea why you'd be planning on using any of those tools, because I can guarentee the average pet owned dog does NOT require those tools.

I agree cshellenbuger and curbside.

I have to reiterate, and as my name implies, especially in our household, leadership on my part, is *very* important. I did not achieve my place in this household, by alpha rolling my dog or biting her in the neck, or as some people have done, quite literally holding her down and actually biting her ear etc.

I controlled her resources, we worked together, working with your dogs is a GREAT way to build bonds and trust. NOTHING physical, and Roxy is the definition of a dominant dog. Not, she's dominant right now, but if given the chance, she'd take over in a heartbeat.

She's a prime example of why the new methods work, and why the old ones do not.

And as for the length of the show, I see it all the time, and it's always an hour long program, perhaps where I am it's so unfortunately popular that they've increased the length of the show.

I believe it's the National Geographic channel? I'll have to double check, usually I try not to watch too much of it, and pass by it on the guide list cursing a bit.

I think what's most important with "dog stuff" is instead of just regurgitating what you've heard, or what "so and so" told you last week about said topic, LEARN ABOUT it yourself.

Don't take anyone's word, no matter their degree/experience as the gospel.

While they can give you good information, it's up to you, to research it yourself and in general apply it to what you've hopefully already learned.

My trainer is awesome. People at our school have countless titles. Do I do everything she says? No!

I used a method from a lady her on the internet for the retrieve on my guys and it worked fabulously!

Now, I love my trainer, but she was not happy with me. Of course not! I pay her, and I didn't use her method! Although she did admit it worked quite well, she still will not tell other people at school how I did it, same with the drop.

You'll find in the dog world, people are quite stubborn. Not willing to give up their methods for the new ones. Even if the new ones work better.

But it's something you'll have to find out on your own...

ETA- I HAD to add, if I were to speak with these police officers who train k9's, I would HAVE to ask, why they use a prong... I mean, what... are you not strong enough to restrain the dog with an agiation collar??!!? ROFL

Most likely they'll reply they use it to administer corrections, but I'd have to say it... LMAO

I think I asked this question on another thread. Are you hitting your enter key after every sentence? On my browser, each sentence is showing up as a separate paragraph....

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Captbob

I think I asked this question on another thread. Are you hitting your enter key after every sentence? On my browser, each sentence is showing up as a separate paragraph....

White space = pause for thought.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by Captbob

I think I asked this question on another thread. Are you hitting your enter key after every sentence? On my browser, each sentence is showing up as a separate paragraph....

I second what Curbside said. I love the way Alpha posts...you can see where each thought ends and the next begins.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

White space = pause for thought.

DaVinci didn't even do that..

[eley]

And here we are, once again. Is Cesar Millan the best thing to happen to dogs since their domestication, or is he the incarnation of evil itself?

My opinion, he's somewhere in between. It's not like the guy is discovering a whole new way to deal and communicate with dogs, he's just bringing it to prime time tv. It's not like he brutalizes and beats dogs, it just so happens that he doesn't see leash corrections as harmful to a dog, which in the hands of a pro, aren't.

Far be it for me to agree 100% with anything, specially someone with all this media hype around him. Lets face it, people who HATE him, HATE anyone that doesn't live and breath operant conditioning. Carla is pretty vocal and open about her opinion, parts of it I agree with, like, there are better, more efficient ways to deal with problems. Other parts I don't agree, the guy is NOT evil, incompetent, stupid or cruel(I know that's not literally what you've said but by the tone and wording of your posts it's safe to assume that's how you feel).

Others simply ADORE him, some of those fans I have to wonder if they like him because they are into dogs, or if they got into dogs cuz they saw the TV show. I also have to wonder if many of his hard core fans have and use any other source of information, or in their mind does learning about dog behaviour starts and stops with "The Dog Whisperer"?.

And then, somewhere in between loving him and hating him, there's people like me. I think his show is great entertainment, I've heard the "why not Dunbar or McConnell?" question more than once, and it's simple, because, educative as it may be, it would not be entertaining for the general public.
At the same time, I also think that if someone has a problem that they can't seem to deal with, well, trying something you saw on tv may not be the best of ideas, consult a pro, that's what they do.

There are parts of his thinking and methodology that I do think are WAY over emphasized and over rated, like "The walk". I agree that dogs need excercise and to go out of the house for mental stimulation, but come on, I honestly doubt that the world stops spinning if you don't "walk your dog properly".

I've noticed that he is very very very misinterpreted by both fans and haters alike, and that seems to stem from people deciding on whether they agree or not before they even start thinking or listening.

Some of Millan's philosophy is common sense put on paper and made into a few catchy phrases. Excercise, Discipline and Affection, pretty straightforward, and I would be hard pressed to find any dog pro that doesn't agree with that in some form. Rules, boundaries and Limitations, same thing.

Then there's the part where it's a little more open to interpretation, the part where in my opinion Millan sounds like someone talking about alternative medicine or something along those lines. "Project the energy" "live in the moment", that sounds more like motivational speaking than dog training/behaviour to me.

The one thing I CANNOT stand, and I've repeated this a number of times. Is all the ignorant people that have this "as seen on tv" mentality. They TiVo "The dog whisperer" and in their minds that makes them fit to give advice and pass judgement on what a person is doing wrong. They talk about stuff they have learned and observed, which from where I sit means "I saw it on tv". I've had numerous arguments with this kind of nutjob, no matter who wrong you prove CM to be they ALWAYS come with an alternative explanation on how he was right, I mean, the guy is human after all isn't he?. Something isn't true or false based on who said it, any statement must stand by it's own merit and logic.

THOSE are the people that are a disservice not only to CM, but to dogs in general.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by eley

And here we are, once again. Is Cesar Millan the best thing to happen to dogs since their domestication, or is he the incarnation of evil itself?

My opinion, he's somewhere in between. It's not like the guy is discovering a whole new way to deal and communicate with dogs, he's just bringing it to prime time tv. It's not like he brutalizes and beats dogs, it just so happens that he doesn't see leash corrections as harmful to a dog, which in the hands of a pro, aren't.

Far be it for me to agree 100% with anything, specially someone with all this media hype around him. Lets face it, people who HATE him, HATE anyone that doesn't live and breath operant conditioning. Carla is pretty vocal and open about her opinion, parts of it I agree with, like, there are better, more efficient ways to deal with problems. Other parts I don't agree, the guy is NOT evil, incompetent, stupid or cruel(I know that's not literally what you've said but by the tone and wording of your posts it's safe to assume that's how you feel).

Others simply ADORE him, some of those fans I have to wonder if they like him because they are into dogs, or if they got into dogs cuz they saw the TV show. I also have to wonder if many of his hard core fans have and use any other source of information, or in their mind does learning about dog behaviour starts and stops with "The Dog Whisperer"?.

And then, somewhere in between loving him and hating him, there's people like me. I think his show is great entertainment, I've heard the "why not Dunbar or McConnell?" question more than once, and it's simple, because, educative as it may be, it would not be entertaining for the general public.
At the same time, I also think that if someone has a problem that they can't seem to deal with, well, trying something you saw on tv may not be the best of ideas, consult a pro, that's what they do.

There are parts of his thinking and methodology that I do think are WAY over emphasized and over rated, like "The walk". I agree that dogs need excercise and to go out of the house for mental stimulation, but come on, I honestly doubt that the world stops spinning if you don't "walk your dog properly".

I've noticed that he is very very very misinterpreted by both fans and haters alike, and that seems to stem from people deciding on whether they agree or not before they even start thinking or listening.

Some of Millan's philosophy is common sense put on paper and made into a few catchy phrases. Excercise, Discipline and Affection, pretty straightforward, and I would be hard pressed to find any dog pro that doesn't agree with that in some form. Rules, boundaries and Limitations, same thing.

Then there's the part where it's a little more open to interpretation, the part where in my opinion Millan sounds like someone talking about alternative medicine or something along those lines. "Project the energy" "live in the moment", that sounds more like motivational speaking than dog training/behaviour to me.

The one thing I CANNOT stand, and I've repeated this a number of times. Is all the ignorant people that have this "as seen on tv" mentality. They TiVo "The dog whisperer" and in their minds that makes them fit to give advice and pass judgement on what a person is doing wrong. They talk about stuff they have learned and observed, which from where I sit means "I saw it on tv". I've had numerous arguments with this kind of nutjob, no matter who wrong you prove CM to be they ALWAYS come with an alternative explanation on how he was right, I mean, the guy is human after all isn't he?. Something isn't true or false based on who said it, any statement must stand by it's own merit and logic.

THOSE are the people that are a disservice not only to CM, but to dogs in general.

I agree 100%! I am completely in between too. I like CM, the show is very entertaining, but IT'S A SHOW. Yes, I do think some of his methods are useful and work...but most of those "methods" are more like common sense to anyone who understands dogs.

I think people need to realize that this is a show and it's made for tv. The people who claim they HATE or LOVE him just need to relax and remember that it's a show. He's an good guy and he loves dogs, but it's television.

[Alpha]

eley, crazybrit *bows down*

My first post states that there are a few ideas Cesar has that I do agree with. Even I use leash corrections!

I agree wholeheartedly, that it's the people that JUST watch the show and think they know all, is where the problem arises. When people think that the ONLY way to "fix" a reactive dog is to alpha roll it.

Once again *bows down* to the above posts.

And as for the way I post, both Curbside and crazybrit answered for me. There's nothing I can't stand more than people who post their whole reply in one huge paragraph. To be honest, I usually just skim it or don't read at all Something I shouldnt' do because there could be useful information there, I just find it a lot easier to digest something when it's split up, like crazybrit said, into a thought process.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by Alpha

eley, crazybrit *bows down*

My first post states that there are a few ideas Cesar has that I do agree with. Even I use leash corrections!

I agree wholeheartedly, that it's the people that JUST watch the show and think they know all, is where the problem arises. When people think that the ONLY way to "fix" a reactive dog is to alpha roll it.

Once again *bows down* to the above posts.

*blushes* Aww thanks!

It's true though! I like to watch Iron Chef and 30 Minutes Meals...but if started spouting out information on how one should cook there'd be a heck of a lot of people burning their kitchens down! I enjoy watching Emergency Vets...but god forbid I started to perform surgeries on my pets just because i have watched plenty of them on Animal Planet!! Ahh!

Just because you watch a lot of something on a television show does not make you an expert!

Originally Posted by Alpha

And as for the way I post, both Curbside and crazybrit answered for me. There's nothing I can't stand more than people who post their whole reply in one huge paragraph. To be honest, I usually just skim it or don't read at all Something I shouldnt' do because there could be useful information there, I just find it a lot easier to digest something when it's split up, like crazybrit said, into a thought process.

I am sometimes guilty of typing a lot into one paragraph...but I think seperate thoughts or issues should be split up. I also skip really lengthy posts that have no breaks whatsoever...they are SO hard to follow.

Especially when the poster uses no capital letters or periods! Arg!

[eley]

Originally Posted by Alpha

I agree wholeheartedly, that it's the people that JUST watch the show and think they know all, is where the problem arises. When people think that the ONLY way to "fix" a reactive dog is to alpha roll it.

Funny you should mention, my dog is leash reactive, easily mistaken with aggression by someone who doesn't know better. I was told by some id... not very smart person, in another forum that I wasn't showing good pack leadership.

I mentioned that I didn't feel comfortable with my 100lb wife walking our 120+lb reactive fila brasileiro, because I feared that if he had a reactive episode, my wife, the dog, or both could be seriously injured. This geniuse's answer? "IF you had the right walking technique that wouldn't be a problem".

Can you see where my frustration and aggrevation stems from?

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by eley

Funny you should mention, my dog is leash reactive, easily mistaken with aggression by someone who doesn't know better. I was told by some id... not very smart person, in another forum that I wasn't showing good pack leadership.

I mentioned that I didn't feel comfortable with my 100lb wife walking our 120+lb reactive fila brasileiro, because I feared that if he had a reactive episode, my wife, the dog, or both could be seriously injured. This geniuse's answer? "IF you had the right walking technique that wouldn't be a problem".

Can you see where my frustration and aggrevation stems from?

I sure can!

I saw a guy in Petsmart the other day that was doing CMs 'biting' thing. Now I am not 100% sure the guy got this idea from the Dog Whisperer, but I'd be willing to bet he did. This guy was basically just hitting his dogs chest over and over. And all because he stopped to sniff at some puppies.

I think that is why there is a disclaimer on the show. It's because some stupid people decide they watch the show enough and they are now professionals, and can use his techniques.

[cshellenberger]

Originally Posted by Captbob

I think I asked this question on another thread. Are you hitting your enter key after every sentence? On my browser, each sentence is showing up as a separate paragraph....

I like the way she posts too, besides, WHAT does her technique of posting have to do with the discussion?

[Alpha]

I think it's avoidance

Instead of answering my questions or relating anything back to what I've stated, just bang the way I post. LOL

[RonE]

Originally Posted by KarenS46

Cesar's methods work for me, I have never had to resort to the alpha roll, but many of his other methods have worked for me. I have a sensitive breed that seeks to please and I have well behaved dogs and that says it all for me.

KarenS46, not to change the subject, 'cause I KNOW we all have a lot of new opinions to express about the Dog Whisperer, but what kind of dog do you have there?

That's a very handsome dog.

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

Originally Posted by Alpha

I think it's avoidance

Instead of answering my questions or relating anything back to what I've stated, just bang the way I post. LOL

Okay this was probably discussed somewhere else...but for some reason I want to assume that you are a male, but are you? Some say he; some say she...lol. I just hate using the wrong pronoun!