[Alpha]

It doesn't take experience to know that alpha rolling has been considered out of date dog training for a while now, at least a decade.

While lately this purely positive stuff has been flying out here and there, I don't neccessarily think purely positive is for EVERY dog, but I'm pretty darn sure that his physical methods, like the alpha roll and in some circumstances the "bite" with his hand are seriously not called for with 90% of dogs out there. Even more so, dogs that already have issues.

For a dog that already has dominance issues, what do you think happens when Cesar leaves? In the dogs mind, this stranger just came into HIS home, DOMINATED him by FORCING him onto the floor and BIT him in the neck than left.

It's going to make it a heck of a lot harder for those owners to become a respectable leader to that dog IMO.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Captbob

You most likely have no idea of what you are talking about and no way to back it up.

I doubt compaq_'s opinion holds any less weight than yours. Care to back up yours?

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I doubt compaq_'s opinion holds any less weight than yours. Care to back up yours?

I am not the one acting like Cesar doesn't know what he is doing and I am an expert.....

[Curbside Prophet]

Interesting, because I didn't see compaq_ doing that either.

[cshellenberger]

Well Said Alpha!

Bob, I believe Ian Dunbar and Patrcia McConnell have alot more experience than Milan have EVER had with every type of dog. Ian Dunbar was the first trainer to have a puppy class as most trainers didn't you could train obedience until 6months, he's a veterinarian as well . I've posted NUMEROUS studies and research on why Milans methods are outdated and could be harmful, which I suppose you've never read. Instead of knocking people, maybe you should open your mind and do your own research.

Karen,
Read this, it explains, in a civil manner, why people are skeptical about Milan.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MGPHL9D1N1.DTL

There are better ways to train your dog.

[Jaylie]

Hey, I don't like all these, "There are better ways to train your dog." There are MANY ways to train "your" dog. Each dog is different. Some need all positive reinforcement, some, (Believe it or not) need NO positive reinforcement. Some just need the correction. With my personal dog, she is a mix of both. She's at about the Cesar Millan type. And then there are OTHER dogs, that freak out if you do any of that type of stuff. I'm just saying, there are MANY ways out there to train dogs, and each different dog NEEDS a different way, that's why there ARE so many ways.

[Alpha]

There are a tonne of ways out there to train your dog, I myself don't agree that purely positive is for every dog out there.

I stated in my first post that Cesar has some ideas I do agree with, but not his physical, super hands on methods that often require physical force and a lot of struggling on the dogs part.

I dare Cesar to come to my house and "bite" Roxy with his hand or try to wrestle her to the floor! I'm sure THOSE scenes are edited out though...

I myself have used what could be called a pretty harsh aversive (e-collar) but I've never physically HURT my dog in an attempt to train them.

Do you honestly think in the day, or few hours he's at their house that it changes the dog's personality and habits THAT much?

Impossible! It's more about educating the OWNERS on what to do, not even really what HE does specifically, of course excepting the NEGATIVE damage done to the dog.

To bring it back to dominant dogs (because I know first hand, Roxy is unashamedly human agressive) I know that's what most important in our household (well at least between me and Roxy) is trust. Yeah, I'm the leader, yada yada yada, that's been established awhile ago, now it's TRUST.

How is your dog supposed to trust you if you allow some strange man to come into your home and man handle them while you stand silently by?

Purely theoretical here, but what I'm pretty sure would happen, is Roxy would relapse into her old ways, being completely right out psycho about strangers and perhaps even become agressive towards me. (She hasn't but I could see it happening)

Jaylie- Just because there are SO many ways, doesn't neccessarily mean all of those ways are "up to date".

We used to think the earth was flat.

We used to think that left handed people had weaker hearts...

So on and so forth. Just like decades ago, "dog trainers" thought it was neccessary to toss their dog onto the ground, on their back and hold them there by their throats.

I agree that there is no one method for any dog out there and I use aversives myself in training, but even I can't see, or understand the use of alpha rolls in "training" other than spiteful, stubborn or just plain uneducated.

[Beckie]

Hi Im Beckie and I m new member here.
I like ceasar to and I like to see his program on tv on
monday here in sweden.
he is great with all dogs he help.

[RonE]

Originally Posted by RonE

don't be surprised if this thread turns into 19 pages of back-and-forth.

Pretty good start, I'd say.

[KarenS46]

Just 16 pages to go! Interesting comments.

[Sketchisfuzzy]

Originally Posted by cshellenberger

Well Said Alpha!

Karen,
Read this, it explains, in a civil manner, why people are skeptical about Milan.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MGPHL9D1N1.DTL

There are better ways to train your dog.

THanks for the link...Good article...I have always been on the fence about Millan...While some of his methods seem pretty good, I have always thought him to be a bit too aggressive. It may indeed "work" but "working" should not necessarily be the guiding factor. One could beat a dog into obeying that doesn't make it right. It's the fruit of the relationship you have with your dog. Do you have a dog who obeys because he fears you'll alpha drop him and "bite" his neck? Or does he obey because you've built a relationship on trust and patience? Perhaps some dogs require more man-handling than others - just not sure this should be the mainstream idea of good training.

But...Good to have different training tools for the "toolbelt". I just wouldn't go exclusively Millan for training my dog.

JMHO!

Helen

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Sketchisfuzzy

But...Good to have different training tools for the "toolbelt". I just wouldn't go exclusively Millan for training my dog.

I couldn't agree more. To those who are seeking as much information as possible, to have a well known show on dog behavior, can open the gateway to knowledge and alternative training techniques. In that sense Cesar's show does motivate learning.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Alpha

There are a tonne of ways out there to train your dog, I myself don't agree that purely positive is for every dog out there.

I stated in my first post that Cesar has some ideas I do agree with, but not his physical, super hands on methods that often require physical force and a lot of struggling on the dogs part.

I dare Cesar to come to my house and "bite" Roxy with his hand or try to wrestle her to the floor! I'm sure THOSE scenes are edited out though...

I myself have used what could be called a pretty harsh aversive (e-collar) but I've never physically HURT my dog in an attempt to train them.

Do you honestly think in the day, or few hours he's at their house that it changes the dog's personality and habits THAT much?

Impossible! It's more about educating the OWNERS on what to do, not even really what HE does specifically, of course excepting the NEGATIVE damage done to the dog.

To bring it back to dominant dogs (because I know first hand, Roxy is unashamedly human agressive) I know that's what most important in our household (well at least between me and Roxy) is trust. Yeah, I'm the leader, yada yada yada, that's been established awhile ago, now it's TRUST.

How is your dog supposed to trust you if you allow some strange man to come into your home and man handle them while you stand silently by?

Purely theoretical here, but what I'm pretty sure would happen, is Roxy would relapse into her old ways, being completely right out psycho about strangers and perhaps even become agressive towards me. (She hasn't but I could see it happening)

Jaylie- Just because there are SO many ways, doesn't neccessarily mean all of those ways are "up to date".

We used to think the earth was flat.

We used to think that left handed people had weaker hearts...

So on and so forth. Just like decades ago, "dog trainers" thought it was neccessary to toss their dog onto the ground, on their back and hold them there by their throats.

I agree that there is no one method for any dog out there and I use aversives myself in training, but even I can't see, or understand the use of alpha rolls in "training" other than spiteful, stubborn or just plain uneducated.

Are you and I watching the same show ( The Dog Whisperer) cause I sure don't see what you are talking about, happening? By the way, where did you get the false notion that an E-Collar is a "harsh aversive"? That is simply not true.

[KarenS46]

Why is everyone so focused on the alpha rolls and hand "bites"? What about what he teaches about getting to know and really understand the dog and to get inside the dogs mind, and to understand that the behavior problems are almost always caused by the owner? What about just postulating that the dog is going to do what you want? Power of positive thinking!

[cshellenberger]

That most problems dog have are due to the owner is one of the things i agree with Milan about. I may not like his techniques, but he's right about that. However he also tends to over use the 'dominance things. I've seen him FORCE a great dane across a floor area that it was scared of. Forcing a dog to do something it's scared of is a good way to turn fear into the dog biting to protect itself.

http://www.animalbehavior.net/PUBLIC...n_Luescher.htm

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

These are some ther very interesting articles you may want to read. Again, written not by amatuers like me, but by behaviorists.

[Alpha]

I myself have used what could be called a pretty harsh aversive (e-collar) but I've never physically HURT my dog in an attempt to train them.

Captbob- Read my post again, I stated the truth, many believe the e-collar is a HARSH aversive, especially when compared to the purely positive/shaping behaviour methods out there today.

I was merely stating that even when training myself, I use aversives, some could be classified as pretty harsh, but even I haven't alpha rolled or "bit" my dogs on the neck.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by KarenS46

Why is everyone so focused on the alpha rolls and hand "bites"? What about what he teaches about getting to know and really understand the dog and to get inside the dogs mind, and to understand that the behavior problems are almost always caused by the owner? What about just postulating that the dog is going to do what you want? Power of positive thinking!

Because many of the people that like to knock Cesar don't really watch the show, so they act like every show is composed of alpha rolls and handbites......

Originally Posted by Alpha

Captbob- Read my post again, I stated the truth, many believe the e-collar is a HARSH aversive, especially when compared to the purely positive/shaping behaviour methods out there today.

I was merely stating that even when training myself, I use aversives, some could be classified as pretty harsh, but even I haven't alpha rolled or "bit" my dogs on the neck.

I see no difference at all between the type of "hand bite" that Cesar does, and using a choke collar or prong collar and a leash.

[Alpha]

Well because *you* can't see the difference doesn't mean that there isn't.

The hand bite he does is NOT comparable to using a prong collar or choke (in which I use neither anyways in training).

The prong collar does not represent a bite, rather just pain to avoid the dog from putting up resistance against the collar. The neck is where we humans choose to lead dogs around, so it makes sense that the neck is where the resistance from dog pulling comes from. On top of that, where we as humans decide to apply pain in the hopes of stopping the dog from pulling on the leash.

Totally different, than in a quick, startling movement, pinching the dogs neck. The "hand bite" Cesar does, I imagine is NOT painful, like prong collars are. It's what it represents that makes it so mentally damaging.

And on reactive dogs, like my Roxy, doing this hand bite, will most likely get you bit. I'll rephrase that, it WILL get you bit.

I think, as humans, we can administer some corrections that in dog language mean something. Perhaps some dogs won't react to that hand bite, I'm not saying that all will, but I don't think it's right to lead the general dog owning public to believe that that's the way they should train their dog.

A lot of the things Cesar does are probably attempted on their own dogs after the show. Without the supervision of a trainer or any real knowledge aside from watching an hour long program designed for entertainment on tv a lot of these "methods" can cause a lot of damage.

Number one IMO, being lost trust between you and your dog.

[RonE]

Originally Posted by Alpha

aside from watching an hour long program designed for entertainment

It's actually a half-hour show - about as long as it takes Lassie to get home and explain to the folks (in some detail) that Timmie has, once again, fallen down the well and they'd better come quick and fish him out.

I watch the show for the same reasons that I watched Lassie religiously when I was attempting to grow up. It's entertaining and it has dogs.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by Alpha

Well because *you* can't see the difference doesn't mean that there isn't.

The hand bite he does is NOT comparable to using a prong collar or choke (in which I use neither anyways in training).

The prong collar does not represent a bite, rather just pain to avoid the dog from putting up resistance against the collar. The neck is where we humans choose to lead dogs around, so it makes sense that the neck is where the resistance from dog pulling comes from. On top of that, where we as humans decide to apply pain in the hopes of stopping the dog from pulling on the leash.

Totally different, than in a quick, startling movement, pinching the dogs neck. The "hand bite" Cesar does, I imagine is NOT painful, like prong collars are. It's what it represents that makes it so mentally damaging.

And on reactive dogs, like my Roxy, doing this hand bite, will most likely get you bit. I'll rephrase that, it WILL get you bit.

I think, as humans, we can administer some corrections that in dog language mean something. Perhaps some dogs won't react to that hand bite, I'm not saying that all will, but I don't think it's right to lead the general dog owning public to believe that that's the way they should train their dog.

A lot of the things Cesar does are probably attempted on their own dogs after the show. Without the supervision of a trainer or any real knowledge aside from watching an hour long program designed for entertainment on tv a lot of these "methods" can cause a lot of damage.

Number one IMO, being lost trust between you and your dog.

I just had along discussion about this very topic two days ago with two trainers that train police dogs. They disagree with you 100%. Each if them has been doing this work for over a decade.