[Purley]

I remember that one, or maybe both of you had said ages ago that pinning a dog, such as Cesar Milan recommends, is not good for a breed such as a Goldendoodle.

I have been told by a friend who teaches obedience and also by the breeder of Cooper, that they have always used methods such as Cesar Milan's. The breeder told me "pinning is what the mother does to make the pups behave". They both do that with their dogs and at their classes.

So now I am totally and utterly confused. In the past, I also have used those kind of tough measures with all my dogs, including my Shih-tzus. Its only recently that I have discovered that there is a totally different school of thought - i.e. positive training.

Could either of you - or anyone else for that matter - please tell me why tough training and pinning a dog such as a Goldendoodle, is not good? What kinds of things do you consider can happen if you are tough with a Goldendoodle? And are there breeds that do respond to "tough" treatments and if so why do they respond and a Doodle wouldn't?

I am totally not disagreeing with you. I am taking positive classes. I would just like to understand the reasoning behind each school of thought.

Thanks in advance.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Purley

I remember that one, or maybe both of you had said ages ago that pinning a dog, such as Cesar Milan recommends, is not good for a breed such as a Goldendoodle.

I have been told by a friend who teaches obedience and also by the breeder of Cooper, that they have always used methods such as Cesar Milan's. The breeder told me "pinning is what the mother does to make the pups behave". They both do that with their dogs and at their classes.

So now I am totally and utterly confused. In the past, I also have used those kind of tough measures with all my dogs, including my Shih-tzus. Its only recently that I have discovered that there is a totally different school of thought - i.e. positive training.

Could either of you - or anyone else for that matter - please tell me why tough training and pinning a dog such as a Goldendoodle, is not good? What kinds of things do you consider can happen if you are tough with a Goldendoodle? And are there breeds that do respond to "tough" treatments and if so why do they respond and a Doodle wouldn't?

I am totally not disagreeing with you. I am taking positive classes. I would just like to understand the reasoning behind each school of thought.

Thanks in advance.

Pinning a dog should not be done to ANY breed whatsoever. True, dogs do it to each other SOMETIMES. Rarely. Very very rarely. But are you a dog? Do you think you can pin a dog with half the precision, body language, and intent as another dog? Nope. Trying to pretend you're a dog is just as bad as trying to pretend the dog is a human. You are a human, your dog is a dog, and your dog knows it. As such, you need to bridge the barrier in communication with a language you both can understand. That's the basis of clicker training.

No dog responds "better" to tougher training. They respond differently, maybe. But certainly not better. I don't know about you, but if someone tried to train me with a whip and with their fists, I'd probably end up doing what they say. But I won't be happy, and I certainly won't enjoy it. I'm exaggerating greatly to make a point, because that's not universal. Many dogs, I'm sure, learn to tolerate their handlers rough actions.

Next, Cesar Milan says himself that 1) Nobody should copy his training. 2) He is not a trainer, but a behaviorist. Now, I'm not going to argue either of these. Let's assume for a minute that both of those are true. Why would a TRAINER be using a method meant for Behavior Rehabiliation? That fact alone, should tell you they don't really know what they are talking about.

Cesar's methods can all be defined by the Learning Theory. All learning, actually, can be defined by it. It is universal to all living things. However, Cesar's methods are not used based on knowledge of how all things learn. It's based on pretending you are a dog.

It might "work" but it's not half as precise, clear, and easily understandable as clicker training.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by Purley

Could either of you - or anyone else for that matter - please tell me why tough training and pinning a dog such as a Goldendoodle, is not good? What kinds of things do you consider can happen if you are tough with a Goldendoodle? And are there breeds that do respond to "tough" treatments and if so why do they respond and a Doodle wouldn't?

I am totally not disagreeing with you. I am taking positive classes. I would just like to understand the reasoning behind each school of thought.

Thanks in advance.

I would be interested in this perspective also as I have observed a few Goldendoodles and Labradoodles being sided/pinned with some great results/resolution for some specific issues.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by sparkle

I would be interested in this perspective also as I have observed a few Goldendoodles and Labradoodles being sided/pinned with some great results.

For who? The owner or the dog? I have a itsy bitsy feeling the dog didn't appreciate it so much.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by RBark

For who? The owner or the dog? I have a itsy bitsy feeling the dog didn't appreciate it so much.

I am quite sure/positive it was stressful in the beginning but then a calm dog came through at the end of session and the dog/s clearly had a different attitude and understanding. No doubt about it.

No more muzzles and drugs needed at the vets office or when getting the nails clipped/grooming. The vets who worked with these dogs commented that they could not believe it in the beginning untill they experienced this resolution with other dogs.

I should mention that previous attempts at conditioning the dog/s to except grrooming/nail clipping/handling had failed after paying 2 or 3 skilled professionals in a few cases to address the the issues with incentive based approaches.

I am also not saying that pinning/siding a dog will work in all cases or should be attempted. I have certainly observed failures even by so call experts at it let alone those who have/had no clue what they were doing.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by sparkle

I am quite surepositive it was stressful in the beginning but then a clam dog calm through at the end of session and the dog clearly had a different attitude and understanding. No more muzzles and drugs needed at the vets office or when getting the nails clipped. I should mention that previous attempts at conditioning the dog/s to except grrooming/nail clipping had failed after paying 2 or 3 skilled professionals to address the the issues with incentive based approaches. I am also not saying that pinning/siding a dog will work in all cases or should be attempted.

You'll have to define a calm dog. Most people confuse a dog that shut down for a dog that is calm. Most dogs that I saw when I watched and participated in obedience classes, eventually shut down and let the owners do whatever they want to them. That's not a healthy state of mind for a dog. Nor is it a desirable trait.

And saying that positive trained failed after 2 or 3 professionals failed doesn't mean much of anything. Just like only 1 out of 10000 correction-based dog trainers actually know what they are doing, only 1 out of 10000 positive trainers actually know what they are doing. The only difference is the other 9999 aren't hurting the dog.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by RBark

You'll have to define a calm dog. Most people confuse a dog that shut down for a dog that is calm. Most dogs that I saw when I watched and participated in obedience classes, eventually shut down and let the owners do whatever they want to them. That's not a healthy state of mind for a dog. Nor is it a desirable trait.

And saying that positive trained failed after 2 or 3 professionals failed doesn't mean much of anything. Just like only 1 out of 10000 correction-based dog trainers actually know what they are doing, only 1 out of 10000 positive trainers actually know what they are doing. The only difference is the other 9999 aren't hurting the dog.

Such are the semantics..I think I will pass on further comment.

I am not talking about a temporary basis. The dog/s never had to be sided again and we are talking several years. Some people do not have the resources or time to find the real trainer when the trainers they spent good money on were advertised and had the reputation and CERTIFICATION of being one of those expert trainers.

I do understand your point however as I am always thinking...concerning failed resolutions...." I wish I could have worked with that xxxxx dog because I think "I" could have found a resolution" Incentive based or complusion based approaches aside. When I clip my dogs nails I would rather/ desire that they stay clam because they want to rather than because they have to, eitherway it has to happen.

[Curbside Prophet]

***Must resist anteater post***

I alpha roll my dog ALL the time...she very much enjoys the belly rub.

The difference between the context in my example and our humanity in general is whether the dog is willingly rolled or forcibly rolled. Forcibly rolled dogs ARE threatened dogs, and threatened dogs need more of our humanity...they have teeth ya know. Willingly rolled dogs ARE "conditioned" dogs, and conditioned dogs find such an experience pleasurable/acceptable.

Some don't care to weigh the dog's conditioning or their humanity, and this is exactly when learned helplessness may occur.

[sparkle]

And then there is the reality in that some of my vet friends tell about the dogs they terminate/murder because the human refuses to use compulsion conditioning I enjoy sitting in from time to time and watching the dogs go to sleep. NO STRESS AT ALL For the dog.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by sparkle

And then there is the reality in that some of my vet friends tell about the dogs they terminate/murder because the human refuses to use compulsion conditioning I enjoy sitting in from time to time and watching the dogs go to sleep. NO STRESS AT ALL For the dog.

I find this comment sick and twisted, but I don't suspect you meant it as such.

[qingcong]

You have to understand that Cesar Millan, like any good dog trainer, does not go and forcibly alpha roll every dog for doing something wrong. A dog steals food from the counter, does Millan go and alpha roll this dog? No, he teaches it manners by body blocking and telling the dog that the counter belongs to the human.

There is nothing wrong with being assertive, but there is a difference between assertive and violent. Millan's alpha roll is not the violent pinning that some people describe. He only uses this technique on dogs that have severe aggression issues, dogs that have the urge to kill. He never forcibly pins the dog down, it's generally a 50/50 cooperation where the dog complies to what he's asking. He's not pinning the dog to show it who's bigger and stronger, he's asking the dog to lay on its side to just relax, to give up all the negative energy and just trust that everything will be okay.

That said, the alpha roll technique is not for everyone. If you have Millan's skill and understanding, that's fantastic. For the rest of us who don't know how to do it, you probably shouldn't try it.

About not doing it to a goldendoodle, the breed doesn't really matter. All techniques are about the individual dog.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I find this comment sick and twisted, but I don't suspect you meant it as such.

I find it sickening also ...having worked in rescues and observing/knowing of so many dogs getting EUTH"D.

[Purley]

This is the email I got from Cooper's breeder.

Morning Liz; None of my Doodles are hyper and all are very obedient, I am getting raving reports of how quick they are too learn...maybe Cooper got too babied when he was so sick...have you ever read Cesar Millan's books? He is a no nonsense dog trainer that pins them down like the mother does when educating her pups....I have used this method my whole life and it really shows them that they have to listen..

Of course, I have not seen any of her dogs. I suppose she is telling the truth when she says they are obedient. Cooper didn't get babied at all. He got sick within days of my son getting him and once he was better nobody babied him.

I honestly think I would prefer my dogs to do what I wanted because they wanted to - not because they were afraid of the consequences. However, all the dogs that I have ever trained have been quite calm and seemed reasonably willing to learn. With Cooper its hard to get his attention because all he is interested in - given half the chance - is leaping at the other dogs. He is definitely IN NO WAY aggresive.

The only time he got at all aggressive was when my oldest shih-tzu, Mickey, who likes to cause trouble, got in Cooper's face and then Cooper got hold of him with his front legs and squashed him on the floor. Mickey growled and snapped, Cooper growled and snapped and I think it could have been a dog fight if I hadn't got hold of Cooper's leash.

So, I guess my question is - does the positive kind of training work on a dog that is hyper? If I had Cooper on his own, he would be easier to train. At the class - not so much!

Do you agree that the dog has to see you as the Alpha dog? And if so, how do you achieve this if you never correct the bad behaviour - only rewarding good? Will the dog come to respect you with this method? I don't think Cooper respects me at the moment. He doesn't respect my granddaughter and I haven't seen him around my son, but even with my son, he is hyper at my house - around my dogs!

[sparkle]

Oh My!

I see too many issues here and would not know where to start except to say that you take a chance in experimenting with siding a dog let alone in deciding when to do so. I honestly feel that pinning your dog for the issues that you describe especially with what your breeder supposedly said is very problematic. You can try it if you dare but I would first make a reasonable effort to exhaust other approaches incentive based or complusion based regardless. I am not sure what I think about what (in the manner) your breeder said. That was scarey for me.

I am sure others can give you more detailed suggestions than I am capbable at the moment.

[Dog_Shrink]

First off let me say that I do NOT endorse Caesar or his techniques. he is just a person that knows dog "stuff" and isn't even certified in animal behavior or canine training. I would LOVE to see al his outtakes where he got his ass bit for trying to roll an unmuzzled dog, and you certainly never see any follow up on his "worst clients...

Next... the alpha roll and the theory of "forcing" a dog to be respectful of you by implimenting those kind of harsh techniques is absurd. The most reliable way to train your dog is through POSITIVE reinforcement and positive association that you are a FIRM FAIR leader who insists on self control and the punishment is simply that he doesnt get the pleasure of your company if he is going to misbehave. To most dogs that is the worst thing they can imagine. Dogs aren't loyal to us because we feed them, they are loyal to us because we grant them companionship.

As much as people would like to debate the whole pack theory doesn't exist in our domesticated dogs I highly disagree, and ANY dog that is trained by using methods that play on those primitive instincts will be a lot more responsive than a dog trained by harsh alpha techniques. I train using pack leadership ideals and in the 17 years I've been implimenting them can count the number of failures on one hand. This does not mean being brutal to your dog... it means taking their willingness to serve and their desire for leadership and using them to your advantage. Not every dog is cut out to be a leader and to those it can be VERY stressful when they have to assume the leadership roll because their human dropped the ball. Some one HAS to be in charge.

Back to the alpha roll... like another poster said we are trying to impliment CANINE boduy language and simulate a response that is usually canine to canine based not human to canine based. The unexperienced person has NO IDEA what and when it is appropriate to impliment those rolls, whereas another dog does. Most people can not pick up on the subtle nuances of canine body language well enough to communicate using similar language. Mother dogs DO NOT roll their pups when they misbehave until it is the absolute last straw and all her other language has been ignored. First thing mom does is mouth their neck... then apply pressure, then a light shake, then if all else fails they might do a roll. Personally I see more rolling between pups then I ever see from a mother to a pup. Pups KNOW mom is dominant and there is no need for her to be unfair by exerting something that is already known.

This question brings to mind a current client... a husky/mamaute mix... He was trained employing harsh techinques... shock collars, K-9 police dog tactics, alpha rolls and the sort... he is a stressed out emotional wreck even now almost 6 years later. When you employ those kind of harsh techniques to someone who sees you as the leader who should be fair it breaks trust and wreaks emotional havoc on those poor dogs. ANYTHING that gets the dog working for you puts you in a leadership position with out harsh techniques and BUILDS trust rather than breaks it. Obedience drills, constructive games, canine competition events... all get a dog working for you. A goldendoodle... 2 breeds that are meant to work closely with man, who look to you for direction will be ruined by implimenting such harsh techniques.

I can go on and on and on about this whole debate but I'm gonna stop now because I can already see that I'm kinda all over the place with this. Bottom line... DON'T DO IT... if you have a problem with respect, TRAIN.. correct and redirect, praise don't punish... dogs work for the anticipation of the reward and it should NEVER be out of fear of reprocussion.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by sparkle

I find it sickening also ...having worked in rescues and observing/knowing of so many dogs getting EUTH"D.

Ya, I don't see how these comments follow in this discussion, but, okay.

[Dakota Spirit]

Originally Posted by Purley

I honestly think I would prefer my dogs to do what I wanted because they wanted to - not because they were afraid of the consequences. However, all the dogs that I have ever trained have been quite calm and seemed reasonably willing to learn. With Cooper its hard to get his attention because all he is interested in - given half the chance - is leaping at the other dogs. He is definitely IN NO WAY aggresive.

That's kind of the key. A lot of methods 'work' in the sense that they will get you a response, maybe even the one you are looking for - but there can be a definite difference in why and how the dog is preforming.

Now my first suggestion would be to limit the distractions. When you are training him, it should be just you and Cooper. No other dogs present to pull his attention away from the task.

Another tip would be to really tire him out before training. You need to at least take the edge of his energy beforehand otherwise you're going to be combating that 'gotta run now!' urge the entire session. So before you start, take him out and run awhile. Throw the ball or whatever gets him going and spend a good chunk of time doing so. Once he's had that opportunity, he should mellowed out some better prepared to focus on you and your commands.

So, I guess my question is - does the positive kind of training work on a dog that is hyper? If I had Cooper on his own, he would be easier to train. At the class - not so much!

Yep, definitely. It's just a matter of finding the the right approach for that individual dog.

When you are training at home, you can slowly begin introducing distractions back into the environment once he has the commands close to mastered. Start with something like one dog or a person making some kind of distracting noise. Practice keeping his focus in the environment and build up his ability to respond with that one distraction. Once you've done that you can continue adding distractions until he is consistently ignoring them for your commands.

I think right now Cooper is just way overstimulated when you are training him and it's preventing and of the 'learning' from really occurring.

Do you agree that the dog has to see you as the Alpha dog? And if so, how do you achieve this if you never correct the bad behaviour - only rewarding good? Will the dog come to respect you with this method? I don't think Cooper respects me at the moment. He doesn't respect my granddaughter and I haven't seen him around my son, but even with my son, he is hyper at my house - around my dogs!

Not really...or at least not in the classic sense. Dakota responds to me because I control her food, her play time, her outings, things she enjoys. I don't know if that amounts to respect and her believing I'm the alpha, but she knows if she does what I ask that good things will possibly follow. I haven't had to use anything by positive methods to accomplish this.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by Dog_Shrink

A goldendoodle... 2 breeds that are meant to work closely with man, who look to you for direction will be ruined by implimenting such harsh techniques.

I can go on and on and on about this whole debate but I'm gonna stop now because I can already see that I'm kinda all over the place with this. Bottom line... DON'T DO IT... if you have a problem with respect, TRAIN.. correct and redirect, praise don't punish... dogs work for the anticipation of the reward and it should NEVER be out of fear of reprocussion.

OH MY

I would have a hard time (and I am sure others ) in believing that my GSD, Lab` Border Collie's, Aussie, Cattle dog ,ect are ruined and have no respect for me...OH MY

Sometimes these dogs just work themselves regardless of what the human desires.... I have seen it...

I wonder why this approach (incentive based only)does not always work for us humans???

so many absolutes to debate.

Start the rollacoaster

[RBark]

Originally Posted by sparkle

Such are the semantics..I think I will pass on further comment.

I am not talking about a temporary basis. The dog/s never had to be sided again and we are talking several years. Some people do not have the resources or time to find the real trainer when the trainers they spent good money on were advertised and had the reputation and CERTIFICATION of being one of those expert trainers.

I do understand your point however as I am always thinking...concerning failed resolutions...." I wish I could have worked with that xxxxx dog because I think "I" could have found a resolution" Incentive based or complusion based approaches aside. When I clip my dogs nails I would rather/ desire that they stay clam because they want to rather than because they have to, eitherway it has to happen.

I would dare say that the reason pinning the dog appears to work for "years" is because it also appears to be the first thing done to shut the dog down. Then in the years after that, they continue correction-based training. So the further compliance would be due to the continued training, not the pinning of the dog.

Originally Posted by sparkle

And then there is the reality in that some of my vet friends tell about the dogs they terminate/murder because the human refuses to use compulsion conditioning I enjoy sitting in from time to time and watching the dogs go to sleep. NO STRESS AT ALL For the dog.

Irrelevant, sick, and disturbing. I have seen dogs that were abused into submission in rescue multiple times, and when surrendered, never able to trust a human being again. My Horo was like that, and I was not given enough time to help her, and I was not competent enough to help her. Complusion training would have done nothing for her. Using that invalid logic as a justification is sick.

Originally Posted by Purley

This is the email I got from Cooper's breeder.

Morning Liz; None of my Doodles are hyper and all are very obedient, I am getting raving reports of how quick they are too learn...maybe Cooper got too babied when he was so sick...have you ever read Cesar Millan's books? He is a no nonsense dog trainer that pins them down like the mother does when educating her pups....I have used this method my whole life and it really shows them that they have to listen..

That he calls him a dog trainer, and says he pins the dogs down in any frequency, it absurbd and shows his own lack of understanding of dog behavior. I would attribute his dog's eagerness to learn to the fact it's a Poodle and a Golden, two of the most impressive dogs in the obedience world, than to his tatics.

Of course, I have not seen any of her dogs. I suppose she is telling the truth when she says they are obedient. Cooper didn't get babied at all. He got sick within days of my son getting him and once he was better nobody babied him.

There's nothing wrong with babying your dog. Encouraging bad behaviors, yes, that's not good. But babying them? Nope, that's perfectly fine. And her dogs are probably obedient- out of fear of consequence, not because they find it pleasurable.

I honestly think I would prefer my dogs to do what I wanted because they wanted to - not because they were afraid of the consequences. However, all the dogs that I have ever trained have been quite calm and seemed reasonably willing to learn. With Cooper its hard to get his attention because all he is interested in - given half the chance - is leaping at the other dogs. He is definitely IN NO WAY aggresive.

This is a training issue. When a dog is at the point of leaping at another dog, he is WAY over threshold. Think about it as when you are completely emotional. When your emotions get the best of you, are you able to focus well? Reason well? Likely not. I know when I'm angry, I'm completely illogical. Same as when I'm way too excited and eager. Dogs are the same. The training involved is desensitizing. If your dog is even reacting at all to another dog, you are too close to it to do any training.

The only time he got at all aggressive was when my oldest shih-tzu, Mickey, who likes to cause trouble, got in Cooper's face and then Cooper got hold of him with his front legs and squashed him on the floor. Mickey growled and snapped, Cooper growled and snapped and I think it could have been a dog fight if I hadn't got hold of Cooper's leash.

Dog fights don't mean dog aggression. Just like people do, dogs have to learn each other's boundaries. The more well socialized a dog is, the more "clear" his signals will be. Growling and posturing is normal part of dog socialization. A growl is just a way to say "hey, back off!" Most fights don't end with any blood at all, except maybe some scrapes. And they, too, are just ways to say "I really did not like what you did. Better not do it again."

It doesn't mean you need to encourage it, or not stop it, but recognizing it as a natural part of dog behavior helps understanding of what's going on.

So, I guess my question is - does the positive kind of training work on a dog that is hyper? If I had Cooper on his own, he would be easier to train. At the class - not so much!

A overstimulated dog will always be hard to train, no matter the method. The compulsion based method involves shutting down a hyper dog, and possibly into what Curbside mentioned, learned helplessness. A positive based method involves teaching the dog to be calm in situations like these, through reward based socialization.

Do you agree that the dog has to see you as the Alpha dog? And if so, how do you achieve this if you never correct the bad behaviour - only rewarding good? Will the dog come to respect you with this method? I don't think Cooper respects me at the moment. He doesn't respect my granddaughter and I haven't seen him around my son, but even with my son, he is hyper at my house - around my dogs!

No, the dog doesn't need to see you as an Alpha dog. Like I said, humans are not dogs. When I had several dogs, Ollie would be what some people define as the alpha dog. All my other dogs deferred to him. However, Ollie did not see himself as my leader. How does this heirarchy work? Am I the extra-Alpha, and he is the regular Alpha? Way too confusing. Best thing to do is toss out any idea of Alpha.

You are your dog's companion. If you want your companion to get along with you, both human or dog, compromise is needed. You teach him what you want, and he will teach you what he enjoys. He will teach you he enjoys running, and you teach him to not run too far. He teaches you he enjoys fetch, you teach him that you enjoy it when he puts the ball at your feet and sits for the fetch. You give, and receive. It's not war, it's not politics. It's just a friendship.

The dog is not capable of respect. He is, however, capable of not knowing what you want. Just because you think he does, doesn't make it so. Most issues of "lack of respect" "trying to be leader" are just matters of confusion, not dominance.

Originally Posted by Dog_Shrink

...snip...

Sorta agree, sorta disagree. Leadership implies that it's all about what you want. If the dog doesn't do what you want, he is challenging leadership. I disagree with that. Perhaps that's not your intent. But my dogs have a lot of say in my methods.

Originally Posted by sparkle

OH MY

I would have a hard time (and I am sure others ) in believing that my GSD, Lab` Border Collie's, Aussie, Cattle dog ,ect are ruined and have no respect for me...OH MY

Sometimes these dogs just work themselves regardless of what the human desires.... I have seen it...

I wonder why this approach (incentive based only)does not always work for us humans???

so many absolutes to debate.

Start the rollacoaster

Incentive-based training surely works for humans. It's a matter of priorities. A guy who doesn't care about money, is not going to be incited by money. Does that mean it doesn't work? No, it just means you're not finding and utilizing the right reward.

And the fact dogs are extraordinarily able to adapt to our many very confusing behaviors, doesn't make it ok.

[Dog_Shrink]

Originally Posted by sparkle

OH MY

I would have a hard time (and I am sure others ) in believing that my GSD, Lab` Border Collie's, Aussie, Cattle dog ,ect are ruined and have no respect for me...OH MY

Maybe it was a pretty broad generalization but what is meant is that ANY sensitive dog will be ruined by employing such harsh techniques. A dog who is only in need of a harh word for correction insted of a physical one... overcorrection is often the leading way down the path to ruining a dog, and that trust a dog has in you. Our job as their leader is to guide them, educate them, and KEEP THEM SAFE... not just from the threats of the outside world but often those things that harm the most come from home.

Ok this just iisn't coming out right...

"Sorta agree, sorta disagree. Leadership implies that it's all about what you want. If the dog doesn't do what you want, he is challenging leadership. I disagree with that. Perhaps that's not your intent. But my dogs have a lot of say in my methods."

When I say leadership.. a leader is only as good as the team behind them and how much they're willing to work for you. This is where the fair part comes in. If you're a dictator then it's exacty as it implies a D**k... That in my mind is NOT a leader... a leader I guess would be better summed up as a teacher, a director, a choreographer, a cop, all rolled into one. Compromise and flexability are all parts of good leadership... I serve my dogs just as much as they serve me... it is a give and take but in the end yes they do serve me, because they want to not because they are forced to.

Like others have said... a dog who is pinned isn't offering "calm submissive" but they have emotionally shut down... NO learning can happen when a dog shuts down.