[winniec777]

I like Milk Duds.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by sparkle

You of all people should know that that aversive approach will not act as a correction.



Why is it that people who against compulsion based training feel a need to resort to name calling?

That would make for a intersting intelligent adult conversation would it not?

Because you are not my dog, not my friend, and I don't care about helping you. Repeatedly talking about how joyful putting dogs to sleep is, sarcasm or not, is cruel and childish.

[wvasko]

Not going to jump in to argue with what is right/wrong etc. I will say this, as a trainer from the dark-side I have never in 50 years had to alpha roll a dog, never found a need for that type of treatment. The golden-doodle breeder should be placed on a deserted island far far away from people and dogs.

[DukesMom]

Originally Posted by winniec777

I like Milk Duds.

This just strikes me REALLY funny.

I'm new here and have lots of opinions, but nothing to add to this heated exchange. Disturbing comments from purposefully antagonistic people like Sparkle really make me not want to come back here.

[winniec777]

Originally Posted by DukesMom

This just strikes me REALLY funny.

I'm new here and have lots of opinions, but nothing to add to this heated exchange. Disturbing comments from purposefully antagonistic people like Sparkle really make me not want to come back here.

Can't take credit for it. It's inspired by the occasional "I like turtles" comment from another DF member, which cracks me up every time I see it.

It does get a little intense sometimes but most people mean well. You learn to ignore the ones who don't and enjoy the outrageousness of the just plain crazy ones.

[sparkle]

Why not all of you that find my comments disturbing simply click on the REPORT icon and have me banned.. It would make it easier on everyone to include me.. Just use some force conditioning on me .

I think what I said about people who would rather euth a dog then use compulsion conditioning is a truism regardless of how insulting it might seem.

You can silence me but the truth runs rampant even though some cannot or do not want to admit it.

I deal with it everyday. I have people tell me this this all the time. My Vet friends try and talk many people out of it. Some don't even bother anymore.

In order not to freak people out ..this is all I will say ..regardless..so pile on if you think it will change the facts.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by sparkle

Why not all of you that find my comments disturbing simply click on the REPORT icon and have me banned..

You ask and you shall receive.

Now on to more important things...

Originally Posted by winniec777

I like Milk Duds.

They're okay, but darn it, I prefer to eat my dulce without a jack hammer.

Goobers on the other hand...

[Cracker]

OOOH I ignored Twinkle and now she's gone...EXTINCTION DOES WORK! LOL...thanks to CP of course. LOL

Marsh Muppet...I agree that punishment USED CORRECTLY does work, the unfortunate truth though is many, if not most, average dog owners do not have the timing and ability to apply a correction so that it does not have to be "nagging" nor excessive force. Since many cannot do it correctly, the odds of fallout are very high. Better to apply R+ with these folks...there is MUCH less to mess up, though no training method is completely perfect.

My preference, ESPECIALLY on puppies is R+, P-, management and a lot of patience and understanding.

This part is not addressed to MM, just to be clear! LOL

I have no agenda against 'coercion', though our banned friend seems to think I do, but that doesn't mean I can't hope that it fades away into a more patient and gentle approach for the dogs. Either way, recommending any sort of correction based work without an experienced AND capable trainer in person to attend is risking a lot.

I find it interesting to see that the use correction or euth the dog thing came up..this seems to be a popular statement from people like Twinkle, I find it disingenuous at the very least. My findings after being a staff member at a vet was not seeing people RATHER euth than punish...it was most often, if a behaviour problem was that severe, that punishment WAS used and used badly and they ended up handler aggressive due to the misapplication.

[Dog_Shrink]

Originally Posted by Marsh Muppet

A human who repeatedly gets nailed for DWI may very well blame "the !@#$% cops" for their trouble, and grow to despise police officers. I actually know a few people like that. Humans are much more clever when it comes to outsmarting themselves. A dog will just avoid doing the thing that results in unpleasant consequences.

Not true... when you have a dog that lives in a constant state of hyper like cooper is then like purley said any attention is good attention good bad or otherwise. If you have an attention starved dog then they will do WHATEVER it takes to get you to respond to them whether it's with a beating or a cookie makes no nevermind to them. THIS I have seen.

Originally Posted by Marsh Muppet

That would be very bad...if it were true.

This is true... and I have also seen this. Take for example the dog who is self taught how to use an electric fence. he runs to the line, gets zapped as a child walks by... associates the child with the fact that he got zapped. Take dog away from property... sees child... acts assertively remembering the correction from when he was in his own yard. I have a dog that lives across the street from me with this problem and have seen this several times as well. Dogs don't reason... they don't think like that "oh I got zapped because I got too close to the boundary". They way they put 2 and 2 together doesn't always equal logic...

Originally Posted by wvasko

Not going to jump in to argue with what is right/wrong etc. I will say this, as a trainer from the dark-side I have never in 50 years had to alpha roll a dog, never found a need for that type of treatment. The golden-doodle breeder should be placed on a deserted island far far away from people and dogs.

Amen dinosaur man God I love your way of thinking... I'd love to pick your brain for a day

[CoverTune]

Originally Posted by Purley

Do you agree that the dog has to see you as the Alpha dog? And if so, how do you achieve this if you never correct the bad behaviour - only rewarding good? Will the dog come to respect you with this method? I don't think Cooper respects me at the moment. He doesn't respect my granddaughter and I haven't seen him around my son, but even with my son, he is hyper at my house - around my dogs!

No, I don't agree that my dogs have to see my as the Alpha dog. I am not a dog. Plain and simple. So why would my dogs ever see me as such?

I don't claim to be a dog trainer AT ALL and am only speaking from the experience of training my two dogs from 8 week old puppies. I used positive training methods, clicker training for "tricks" and positive reinforcement for desired behaviours.

Without exaggerating, I can teach my dog a new trick within 5 minutes by using clicker training. Now, not EVERY trick is learned that quickly, but a lot are and it's an incredible thing to experience.

Do my dogs respect me/my authority? Absolutely! And they love me too, and are not afraid of me.

I can say, with 100% honesty, that I have only ever swatted Corona (my 2.5yr old) 3 times. These were cases where I was at fault.. I lost my temper. Did the dog learn anything from it? NO!

Anywho.. that's just my 2 cents.

[alphadoginthehouse]

Originally Posted by winniec777

I like Milk Duds.

I prefer M&M's myself...and I'm glad Twinkle is gone too...

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Dog_Shrink

Not true... when you have a dog that lives in a constant state of hyper like cooper is then like purley said any attention is good attention good bad or otherwise. If you have an attention starved dog then they will do WHATEVER it takes to get you to respond to them whether it's with a beating or a cookie makes no nevermind to them. THIS I have seen.



This is true... and I have also seen this. Take for example the dog who is self taught how to use an electric fence. he runs to the line, gets zapped as a child walks by... associates the child with the fact that he got zapped. Take dog away from property... sees child... acts assertively remembering the correction from when he was in his own yard. I have a dog that lives across the street from me with this problem and have seen this several times as well. Dogs don't reason... they don't think like that "oh I got zapped because I got too close to the boundary". They way they put 2 and 2 together doesn't always equal logic...



Amen dinosaur man God I love your way of thinking... I'd love to pick your brain for a day

Shrink
That would indeed be very slim picking.

I think that some of the dogs that I have trained through the years must have been from the twilight zone, because self preservation taught me a long time ago that the very last place in the world I wanted to be was on the ground trying to alpha roll a 100 lb (name your breed) dog from the twilight zone. With some of them I actually thought being on a ladder would be better physically for me. (at least I would live with all my fingers/hands intact) I am probably 4 or 5 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier than Milan (I'm not pro or con him) I've had the physical tools necessary to do the roll job but not the mental attitude to get in and out without getting hurt. He*l I'm still trying to perfect the installation of a muzzle on a large dog that's main goal in life is trying to bite me.

I actually think if I did an alpha roll on a small dog I would just be a bully.

This still is not an argument against alpha rolls, it's just not the way I approached the problem.

[Cracker]

Regarding associations dogs make:

Would you rather a dog that won't misbehave because you happen to be there and can apply a correction, but who still thinks that kid/cat etc is something to grab, or a dog that has such positive associations with kid/cat that even if you are not there, he doesn't WANT to grab the kid/cat.

[Elana55]

Originally Posted by Purley

With regard to punishment, I can certainly tell with Cooper that any attention is good. It doesnt matter if its BAD attention ..... its still attention. So therefore I would think that it would follow that if all he gets is yelled at for not doing the right thing, then surely he will continue to be bad just so he gets attention ---- won't he??

Yup. I have a dog that doesn't care... as long as she is the center of the Universe. There is a behavior tht she did and I finally went to corrections and it was not until the correction came with no "pre" warning and no after "positives" that she quit. She was actually doing the behavior to get the warning and then get the attention after. Two times with no pre or post for this ONE behavior on thie ONE dog and that was the end of it.

It was, and I must emphasize this, AFTER I had tried pos. Reinf. to the end of my ability. I will also say that a great Pos. Reinf. trainer might never have ahd to use the correction. I do not know.

Originally Posted by Purley

I have read all the posts and I can certainly see that whereas the human thinks the result will be one way --- there is a good chance that the dog will not see things in the same light, as in the example of being punished by having the chain collar snapped, for lunging at a child. Before this was pointed out to me, I would definitely have thought - the dog needs a snap to correct him and from that correction the result will be that he will walk by my side. But I can now see how, from the dog's point of view, it might very well suggest that the child is a bad thing because it caused a pain in the neck for the dog!

This is exactly true and it is exactly what CAN happen. I know of a dog who no longer walks this earth because the trainer E Collared him over going after other dogs on leash. The result was the dog escalated IMMEDIATELY from being threatening to biting and ended up being a true danger and he was PTS'd.

Originally Posted by wvasko

Not going to jump in to argue with what is right/wrong etc. I will say this, as a trainer from the dark-side I have never in 50 years had to alpha roll a dog, never found a need for that type of treatment. The golden-doodle breeder should be placed on a deserted island far far away from people and dogs.

For years and a few dogs I was all about correction based training. At least in today's context. I hnever heard of siding or Alpha rolling a dog until I watch Cesar Milan on Nat Geo. I never alpha rolled a dog for aversive training purposes. Seemed like a good way to get bitten and scratched by the dog's feet.

I now use mostly Pos. Reinf. methods and find even less reason to alpha roll a dog (and I had no reason before).

[Purley]

Cooper isn't aggressive. He is just "nuts". He wants to play with the other dogs, but as neither my grandddaughter nor I are very tall or very strong - and being on the other end of a leash to even a medium sized dog such as Cooper - its very hard on the hands, even with a wide webbing leash!!

To change the subject slightly - I have three shih-tzus. The middle one, Sam, is Mr Congeniality. However, I have problems getting him to come in. When I got Tyson, Tyson likes to eat poop - and now Sam does it too. I have a big yard and when I call Tyson - he amost always comes running because he will often get a treat when he gets in. Sam on the other hand - he will just "thumb his nose" at me if he is out there eating poop! Even if i say "Want a cookie?" in an excited voice, Sam will keep on doing what he's doing. You can see the look on his face "to heck with you - I'm finishing what I'm doing".

So why, when Sam knows he would probably get a reward for coming in - does he often just ignore me? And when he finally does come racing in -- does he get no treat for ignoring me the first time -- or get a treat for finally coming in without my having to go out there and make him come???

[Marsh Muppet]

I've never given much thought to the training value of siding a dog, though I suppose it has some. I've done it as a way to keep an over excited dog from hurting me, himself, or somebody else. I will entertain the argument that it may not be the best management technique, but it was the one I had at the time. Whatev....

One thing I will say is that if you are going to do something that may start a brawl, you'd best be able to end it--ideally with no one getting injured. Best not to rely on your ability to bluff your way through.

As relates to the OP (now slightly OT), I know very well about how Cooper responds to good attention/bad attention. My dog is just like him. As much as it seems like the craziness is impossible to manage, that gonzo attitude is the best thing you have going for you. Once you learn how to key into it, he will do absolutely anything to be part of the action. In some ways, they are the easiest dogs to reach.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Purley

Cooper isn't aggressive. He is just "nuts". He wants to play with the other dogs, but as neither my grandddaughter nor I are very tall or very strong - and being on the other end of a leash to even a medium sized dog such as Cooper - its very hard on the hands, even with a wide webbing leash!!

To change the subject slightly - I have three shih-tzus. The middle one, Sam, is Mr Congeniality. However, I have problems getting him to come in. When I got Tyson, Tyson likes to eat poop - and now Sam does it too. I have a big yard and when I call Tyson - he amost always comes running because he will often get a treat when he gets in. Sam on the other hand - he will just "thumb his nose" at me if he is out there eating poop! Even if i say "Want a cookie?" in an excited voice, Sam will keep on doing what he's doing. You can see the look on his face "to heck with you - I'm finishing what I'm doing".

So why, when Sam knows he would probably get a reward for coming in - does he often just ignore me? And when he finally does come racing in -- does he get no treat for ignoring me the first time -- or get a treat for finally coming in without my having to go out there and make him come???

It's a matter of your dog's priorities. The reward you have is obviously not nearly as good as the poo he's eating. So you have two choices. You can up the reward (is there anything other than poo that he likes more than the treat you're having? How about a better treat? Most dogs are crazy for a piece of chicken, liver, or Natural Balance Roll). Or you can control the environment. In this case, it's picking up poop immediately. Annoying, sure, but it's just temporary management.

Or you can teach him the recall, and keep him on leash in the backyard at all times. Eventually through reinforcement, coming to you will be better than poop. Though your self esteem might take a deadly blow. I know I'd be crying in a corner if my dog liked poop better than me.

[wvasko]

One thing I will say is that if you are going to do something that may start a brawl, you'd best be able to end it--ideally with no one getting injured. Best not to rely on your ability to bluff your way through.

That's what I'm talking about, if the dog is big enough to roll mentally and physically, that whatever trainer thinks rolling is proper, much hurt can follow.

[Purley]

Originally Posted by RBark

It's a matter of your dog's priorities. The reward you have is obviously not nearly as good as the poo he's eating. So you have two choices. You can up the reward (is there anything other than poo that he likes more than the treat you're having? How about a better treat? Most dogs are crazy for a piece of chicken, liver, or Natural Balance Roll). Or you can control the environment. In this case, it's picking up poop immediately. Annoying, sure, but it's just temporary management.

Generally I do pick it up immediately. The only time I don't is when its 12 below or 30 below and I am in my housecoat!! And when he's way down the garden - how is he going to know if I have the usual Rollover or something really yummy??

[Marsh Muppet]

Originally Posted by bauxer

I am not sure but I do not think that I have ever seen a Alpha roll could someone point me to a video on the internet that shows some real Alpha Rolls

Here's one that shows quite clearly how not to do it. It gives a good idea of what's being attempted, but...jeeze...keep yer face away from the pointy bits.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb6Dd9-AMGc&NR=1&feature=fvwp[/YOUTUBE]

Here's another from a guy of rather dubious character.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Jvfn3kHi8[/YOUTUBE]