[qingcong]

Originally Posted by sparkle

I am under the impression that MOST trainers/people/advertisers,ect report that this (the GL) is a non aversive approach that causes no discomfort or stress to the dog. ?? Maybe I am wrong.

Maybe that was in the beginning and things have since changed with more data.

Originally Posted by sparkle

Well said in my opinion and I would agree

As is my point that a GL is designed as (according to the manufacturers various discriptions over the years) and can be/is used in a aversive way.

Is it possible for someone to use a GL in a nonaversive way..Yes... but highly unlikely when considering what many have said and reported in the usage of the GL...

I think we can safely assume that we will just have to agree to disagree...

I don't get it. One minute you are saying the GL is supposed to be a non aversive because trainers/manufacturers say it's non aversive, the next minute you are saying that the GL is designed as an aversive because trainers/manufacturers say it's an aversive.

Did trainers and manufacturers change what they had to say all of a sudden? Why must you always disagree with me? Woe is me!

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by qingcong

I don't get it. One minute you are saying the GL is supposed to be a non aversive because trainers/manufacturers say it's non aversive, the next minute you are saying that the GL is designed as an aversive because trainers/manufacturers say it's an aversive.

Did trainers and manufacturers change what they had to say all of a sudden? Why must you always disagree with me? Woe is me!

Are you serious?

My comment was a tongue-in-cheek counter opinion as many do report that there are issues with a dog stressing out on a GL for a host of reasons and on the contrary it is my opinion and experience in talking with and listening to people it is somewhat common for dogs not to LIKE the GL.

JUst google it.

Actually many trainers in the beginning who where/are primarily against the use of aversives jumped on the GL band wagon and did not see the usage of a GL as aversive....a lot has changed since then. I have talked with many trainers who have changed there viewpoints on the GL when considering the issues that have arisen in thier usage over time as being somewhat less than pleasurable,.

I hope your not upset in having to come to terms with the fact that a GL was designed to be used aversively...


I may not have been so clear in making my point....something I do need to work on apparently.

just my 2 cents worth

[ypperin]

My favorite no pull harness is the EZYdog

An ezy dog harness is a specialized harness perfect for large breed dogs, to be completely successful it should be paired with an ezy dog leash.

The harness has a durable, reinforced with a flexible rubber (though fully covered and very stylish I might add) pad that sits from the collar bone down between the dogs front legs and with time moulds to fit the dog's shape. It is a one step harness meaning that the dog's front foot must be placed and then the harness is closed with two clips. The harness serves multiple purposes.

1. with the pad position and unique way of holding the straps it stops the rubbing and pinching under the arms typically caused by common harnesses.

2. When the owner pulls on the lead, pressure is applied in a down/back motion on the collar bone with out causing issues on the dogs airway and neck.

3. Should the dog continue to pull, instead of the owner being thrust forward the dog is pulled, supported by the central pad, so that his front legs are no longer on the ground thereby removing leverage over the owner.

As well the harness has a seatbelt attachment which comes in very handy for those pooches that have issues in the car.

The lead I use with the harness is a "mongrel" lead with 2 extensions. This offers versatility to the owner on several levels.

The "mongrel" is a t-bar (like a water skiing handle) format with a comfortable grip that won't squeeze the hand if/when the dog pulls. It is ultra short (12") and when used alone, is great for teaching the "heel" command as the dog is incapable of pulling away and because of it's length he is kept close to you. It is highly useful when dealing with a dog near busy streets and highways as well when an owner is unsure of a dog's response to a new situation.

The entensions are a "bungy" style and are 24" long. For large breeds two, in my opinion, is necessary. This bungy works on multiple levels as well. When placed side by each, both attached to the mongrel and the harness, this bungy will act as shock absorption for the owner, while relaying tension to the dog, deterring the dog from pulling. This bungy is encased in a mesh lead so it is not exposed though definitely not recommended as a "chew toy" LOL.

When wanting a longer lead, the extensions are easily placed one after the other still giving shock absorption but allowing a long lead for the dog.

When we became fosters of Augie, who had never been walked on a leash and is an 80lb, perfectly toned and muscular weim, it was physically impossible for me to walk him outside our backyard without it (believe me I tried). I have tried halti's and easy walkers, having had the luxury of working in the pet industry, reps like me to use my pooch as a guinea pig for their contraptions, and every time I've had to foster a puller, I end up right back with the EZYdog. As well, after five days with us, Augie, who gleefully pulled the rescue across my lawn with a regular lead, is now pacing beautifully beside me on a slacked lead and I can comfortably control him, this harness has proved invaluable over and over and over again, and if you get the option to see it and see how it works, I would definitely recommend it to anyone dealing with pulling issues.

[jesirose]

You lost me at "relaying tension to the dog, deterring the dog from pulling". Have you never heard of opposision reflex?

[qingcong]

Originally Posted by sparkle

Are you serious?

My comment was a tongue-in-cheek counter opinion as many do report that there are issues with a dog stressing out on a GL for a host of reasons and on the contrary it is my opinion and experience in talking with and listening to people it is somewhat common for dogs not to LIKE the GL.

JUst google it.

Actually many trainers in the beginning who where/are primarily against the use of aversives jumped on the GL band wagon and did not see the usage of a GL as aversive....a lot has changed since then. I have talked with many trainers who have changed there viewpoints on the GL when considering the issues that have arisen in thier usage over time as being somewhat less than pleasurable,.

I hope your not upset in having to come to terms with the fact that a GL was designed to be used aversively...


I may not have been so clear in making my point....something I do need to work on apparently.

just my 2 cents worth

Okay okay, I didn't get your TIC comment at first as the internet hides tone of voice.

I don't need to google it, I know dogs generally don't like the GL, that's what I've been saying all along. I've experienced it with my dog, the local Petsmart trainer acknowledges it, I've seen it on TV, etc. You don't have to convince me that dogs don't like it.

No, I'm not upset over anything and no one has really convinced me that the GL is an aversive tool. Really, I think labeling the GL as an aversive tool is mostly a matter of semantics. An argument can be made for either viewpoint.

The definition of aversive in terms of behavior modification is: Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification.

What I would like to point out in this definition of aversive, is that the punishing stimulus has a direct effect causing avoidance of something.

You use a prong or choke collar to lessen a certain behavior using a punishing stimulus (leash correction). Prong and choke collars clearly fit the definition of aversive.

You touch a hot stove and burn your finger. In the future you learn to avoid touching hot stoves because of the punishing stimulus. The hot stove clearly fits the definition of aversive.

A dog wearing a flat buckle collar who hasn't been trained in loose leash walking, lunges to the end of the leash and chokes. Is this an example of an aversive stimulus? Not exactly, even though there is an apparently punishing stimulus, dogs don't avoid lunging in the future. If they are never taught loose leash walking, they will continue lunging no matter how painful it is.

A gentle leader is designed to stop pulling. In order to say that the GL is an aversive training tool, one would argue that a dog learns to stop pulling because the GL provides an aversive stimulus that creates an avoidance of pulling. There are some flaws to this argument that I will describe below -

A dog finds the nose loop of the GL uncomfortable. Does that make the nose loop aversive? I suppose it does, but the aversiveness of the nose loop has nothing to do with teaching a dog to avoid pulling. All that means is that the dog learns to avoid the GL, as the GL itself has become an aversive stimulus.

The aspect of the GL that gets a dog to stop pulling is the fact that it dictates the direction of a dog's head. When a dog pulls, his head gets yanked to the side. So the real question is, when the dog gets his head yanked to the side, is that a clear example of aversive? No, it is not, it's not as direct effect as the hot stove example. Clearly, the act of getting your head yanked to the side is an unpleasant stimulus, but is it this unpleasant stimulus that causes a dog to avoid pulling? No, the reason the dog stops pulling is that he no longer has control over where he wants to go - because we are controlling his head.

Like I said, to me it's a matter of semantics. Certainly there are unpleasant aspects of the GL, but that doesn't necessarily make it a clear cut aversive training tool. If professionals want to start calling the GL an aversive training tool, fine, whatever. My stance is stated above, and I ask that you consider for yourself what it means to be aversive before blindly going along with what the internet says or what an advertiser says.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by qingcong

The definition of aversive in terms of behavior modification is: Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification.

What I would like to point out in this definition of aversive, is that the punishing stimulus has a direct effect causing avoidance of something.

A.

I think possibly one should not confuse a aversive or punisher with a CORRECTION.

It is quite possible and quite probable in many cases that a dog experiencing a physical aversive (sometimes quite severe) might not and will not change/modify it's behavior to prevent the aversive from being introduced again. Same thing with a punisher I would assume.

So to say that a aversive WILL always modify a behavior seems incorrect in my opinion. A physical aversive or punisher can be anything from unpleasant, discomfortable, to painful in my opinion and have no bearing on changing behavior to still qualify as a aversive..I believe.


If one studies the design of the GL it seems to me that it is obvious what/where stimuli is being administered at various degrees of tension or force present on the leash. Maybe it all is a matter of what the dogs feels and possibly we can never know for certain in some/many cases......especially in the cae of MILD aversives. I wonder if stress can be considered a aversive? Would anyone consider force training a aversive or compulsion training aversive or a aversive? What about restraint? Is flooding considered a aversive?

IF HOWEVER the definition of a aversive requires that behavior must be extinguished from re-occuring than I would certainly be wrong in my understanding of the term....which could be the case????? LOL and not the first time. In which case would not a correction and a aversive have the same definition?
HMMM

[ypperin]

Originally Posted by jesirose

You lost me at "relaying tension to the dog, deterring the dog from pulling". Have you never heard of opposision reflex?

Very much so, this harness does not continuously apply pressure, and has worked wonders for me, and being a foster of large breed dogs, and regularily having dogs who are either not trained or ill trained and already 80-120 lbs, this has not only worked, but has trained and the dog has retained a good easy walk after a few weeks use.... in Augie's case after 5 days use. I no longer have to use the system with him, I can use a simple buckle collar and a slack lead. This to me in invaluable..... let alone not having to go to the doctor because of the abuse on the arm. Hey it's just my two cents and thought it might help to relay what worked for me with numerous large breeds.

[nico8]

aversive- Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification.


If we are going by this definition of aversive, then IMO it does not fall into the category of an "aversive". There is no unpleasant or punishing stimulus, if used correctly.The dog not being able to control where it goes is not a "punishing stimulus". If used incorrectly, with jerking and tugging motions on the dogs head and neck as soon as they exhibit an unwanted behavior, then yes it would be aversive.

The collar itself is a restraint. It allows the handler to more easily restrict the movement of the dog, but in no way does the collar use an "unpleasant or punishing stimulus".

A CORRECTION is aversive, an anti-bark collar is aversive, a choke collar is aversive,a shock collar is aversive, a prong collar is aversive... all of these were designed to inflict a sudden, unpleasant stimulus at the exact moment the dog "screws up". The stimuli mechanism is literally built in to the collar; therefore the collar itself is aversive.

With the GL there is no stimuli mechanism. Just saying the collar is unpleasant to wear doesn't make it aversive. It's unpleasant because it's itchy, poorly fitted, or just not a natural feeling for the dog. There is no mechanism built into the collar that produces an unpleasant or punishing stimuli at the point of unwanted behavior.

The GL can be used as an aversive, just like any other collar, that just depends on the handler. The second a correction is made, the collar has been used aversively. But, in my opinion, that just puts the GL in the same group as a flat collar...selectively aversive. It's all up to how you use it. Just my 2 cents...

Originally Posted by ypperin

Hey it's just my two cents and thought it might help to relay what worked for me with numerous large breeds.

Thank you for the recommendation ypperin. I hadn't heard of the EZYdog, but I will definitely check it out.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by sparkle

I hope your not upset in having to come to terms with the fact that a GL was designed to be used aversively...

Maybe this applies to me



http://www.johnknowsdogs.com/gentle-leader-explained.htm

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_arti...le_leader.html


In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (such as an electric shock). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive. There are two types of aversive stimuli:
[edit] Unconditioned aversive stimuli
Unconditioned aversive stimuli naturally result in pain or discomfort and are often associated with biologically harmful or damaging substances or events. Examples include extreme heat or cold, bitter flavors, electric shocks, loud noises and pain. Aversives can be applied naturally (such as touching a hot stove) or in a contrived manner (such as during torture or behavior modification).
[edit] Conditioned aversive stimuli
A conditioned aversive stimulus is an initially neutral stimulus that becomes aversive after repeated pairing with an unconditioned aversive stimulus. This type of stimulus would include consequences such as verbal warnings, gestures or even the sight of an individual who is disliked.


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[qingcong]

Originally Posted by nico8

aversive- Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification.


If we are going by this definition of aversive, then IMO it does not fall into the category of an "aversive". There is no unpleasant or punishing stimulus, if used correctly.The dog not being able to control where it goes is not a "punishing stimulus". If used incorrectly, with jerking and tugging motions on the dogs head and neck as soon as they exhibit an unwanted behavior, then yes it would be aversive.

The collar itself is a restraint. It allows the handler to more easily restrict the movement of the dog, but in no way does the collar use an "unpleasant or punishing stimulus".

A CORRECTION is aversive, an anti-bark collar is aversive, a choke collar is aversive,a shock collar is aversive, a prong collar is aversive... all of these were designed to inflict a sudden, unpleasant stimulus at the exact moment the dog "screws up". The stimuli mechanism is literally built in to the collar; therefore the collar itself is aversive.

With the GL there is no stimuli mechanism. Just saying the collar is unpleasant to wear doesn't make it aversive. It's unpleasant because it's itchy, poorly fitted, or just not a natural feeling for the dog. There is no mechanism built into the collar that produces an unpleasant or punishing stimuli at the point of unwanted behavior.

The GL can be used as an aversive, just like any other collar, that just depends on the handler. The second a correction is made, the collar has been used aversively. But, in my opinion, that just puts the GL in the same group as a flat collar...selectively aversive. It's all up to how you use it. Just my 2 cents...



Thank you for the recommendation ypperin. I hadn't heard of the EZYdog, but I will definitely check it out.

Yep, I agree with this. You said it in a much clearer way than I did.

[sparkle]

In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (such as an electric shock). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive.



Would it then be accurate to say (from the text book definition of a aversive) that any stimulus *regardless* of the discomfort level that does not meet this specified critera of eliminating behavior from repeating/avoidance ....IS NOT/would then not be CONSIDERED AVERSIVE?

In otherwords does the administered or experienced stimuli have to act as a correction (not a attempted one) in order to be defined as a aversive?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????

[nico8]

Originally Posted by sparkle

In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (such as an electric shock). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive.



Would it then be accurate to say (from the text book definition of a aversive) that any stimulus *regardless* of the discomfort level that does not meet this specified critera of eliminating behavior from repeating/avoidance ....IS NOT/would then not be CONSIDERED AVERSIVE?

In otherwords does the administered or experienced stimuli have to act as a correction (not a attempted one) in order to be defined as a aversive?

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????

Wow you're diving way deep into this...but to answer your question, no. The administered stimulus doesn't have to immediately change the dog's behavior for it to be considered aversive. The fact that there is *administered stimulus*, with the intention to correct, makes it aversive. Some dogs can walk right through prong collars, choke collars, spray collars, shock collars with no problem, but the collars are still aversive if by intent alone.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by nico8

...but to answer your question, no. The administered stimulus doesn't have to immediately change the dog's behavior for it to be considered aversive. The fact that there is *administered stimulus*, with the intention to correct, makes it aversive.

SO based on your answer/explaination then would this be a accurate shortened MODIFIED definition of a aversive.............certain elements omitted.

In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is *possibly but not necessarily reduced.*

Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (such as an electric shock).

I am not sure if the omissions to the original definition would not dramatically change the intent.


To go deeper... based on the above modification in the definition of a aversive I would assume then that we could then define a correction as a stimuli that likely will reduce/extinguish/modify behavior but does not neccessarily have to in order to qualify as a correction.
????????????????????????//

[qingcong]

Sure, a correction is basically a euphemism for aversive stimulus. The effectiveness of a correction does not really have anything to do with whether or not it qualifies as a correction. If an aversive stimulus is applied with the intent to decrease a behavior, then it is a correction. If it doesn't work, it's still a correction, just an ineffective correction.

Back to the GL argument, probably the most unpleasant aspect of it is the nose loop. Dogs generally hate the nose loop. The nose loop itself becomes an aversive stimulus, because dogs try to avoid it. My dog even started running away from the sight of the nose loop. In this respect, sure, you can argue that the nose loop of the GL is an aversive, but the GL wasn't designed to scare dogs of nose loops was it?

The intended operation of the GL is to guide a dog's head. This makes the GL a non aversive training tool. Certainly you can make it an aversive tool by jerking the dog's head around, just as you can make a pen a weapon by stabbing someone with the tip.

[sparkle]

Ok I get it now.. I think

A correction does not really have to change anything to be a correction.

A aversive does not have to change anything to be a aversive..

In dog training, positive punishers are typically called "corrections" or "compulsion" and involve the addition/use of force, discomfort, a startle reaction, irritation,or even pain and fear.

Certain forms of Force training may not be aversive but is considered compulsion so therefore if used correctly a GL is simply designed as a compulsion training tool. The force that a GL is design to generate is not (should not act as) a aversive but could be considered a correction in that the GL can condition a dog not to pull,jump up,bark,lunge,ect according to the designer and manufacturer as referenced in a prior post. The administration of a correction does not need to be aversive, punishing, or result in a change of behavior to be considered one.

so when considering the below definition....
verbal warnings and gestures can be a aversive as long as they (have been paired) are considered unpleasant/irritating and induce changes in behavior as a punisher.

In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (such as an electric shock). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive.

Contents [hide]
1 Types of aversive stimuli
1.1 Unconditioned aversive stimuli
1.2 Conditioned aversive stimuli
2 Use in ABA
3 References
4 See also
5 External links

[edit] Types of aversive stimuli
Main article: Classical conditioning
There are two types of aversive stimuli:

[edit] Unconditioned aversive stimuli
Unconditioned aversive stimuli naturally result in pain or discomfort and are often associated with biologically harmful or damaging substances or events. Examples include extreme heat or cold, bitter flavors, electric shocks, loud noises and pain. Aversives can be applied naturally (such as touching a hot stove) or in a contrived manner (such as during torture or behavior modification).

[edit] Conditioned aversive stimuli
A conditioned aversive stimulus is an initially neutral stimulus that becomes aversive after repeated pairing with an unconditioned aversive stimulus. This type of stimulus would include consequences such as verbal warnings, gestures or even the sight of an individual who is disliked.





Am I confused or what?

Is thier someone with a skillset that can get through to a hard skull like mine?

I need help!

The only thing I have learned for sure is that the GL was not designed to be used aversively but rather compulsively regardless of the likelyhood that aversive results can occur.

[nico8]

Originally Posted by qingcong

Back to the GL argument, probably the most unpleasant aspect of it is the nose loop. Dogs generally hate the nose loop. The nose loop itself becomes an aversive stimulus, because dogs try to avoid it. My dog even started running away from the sight of the nose loop. In this respect, sure, you can argue that the nose loop of the GL is an aversive, but the GL wasn't designed to scare dogs of nose loops was it?

The intended operation of the GL is to guide a dog's head. This makes the GL a non aversive training tool. Certainly you can make it an aversive tool by jerking the dog's head around, just as you can make a pen a weapon by stabbing someone with the tip.

Well said.

[2houndsdesign]

We offer a patented no-pull harness that has a front connection and a martingale loop connection on the back of the dog. This allows you to walk your dog from the back, keeping the spine in alignment, while the martingale loop tightens slightly around the chest to prevent pulling.

We are in the process of launching a new site, let us know what you think! http://www.wiggleswagswhiskers.com/newsite.html

[REB]

When we first got Mac he didn't know how to walk on the leash without pulling, and he'd end up choking himself when we passed a dog or a squirrel or... anything. The Gentle Leader definitely kept Mac from pulling and gave us more control over his head. We thought he'd get used to the nose loop over time, but after 2 months, he still hated it (pawing at his face to get it off!). We switched to the Easy Walk and have had much better luck. He's learned to walk with the leash loose with the harness, and on the rare occasions that I clip the leash to his regular collar, he doesn't really pull much on that anymore, either.

Quick question about the Easy Walk, though-- the last week or two, Mac has started shying away slightly as we put the harness on him, although he loves his walks and knows that harness=walk. It's not too tight, and I thought maybe I'd accidentally pinched him once as I put it on without knowing it, and so he started getting nervous? Mac's not generally an anxious dog, so this is kind of weird and unusual for him. Any theories?

[jesirose]

Hadley and Sadie did the same thing.

I spent a few weeks giving them a treat every time I put the harness on, and it stopped. Just give the treats through the harness, they can't eat it unless the harness goes on.

[Love's_Sophie]

I'm not really one for harnesses, as the original general concept FOR a harness was for pulling...Lol! I think for a dog who's been taught how to walk nicely on a lead, it can be an option for walking, however, I think it is easier for a dog to revert to behaviors like pulling, because a harness makes it easier, due to not having control of the head or neck.

A dog may not 'like' a GL but that is my tool of preference over a 'no pull' harness. You just have to spend a bit of time getting the dog to accept a GL, but once that's done, you can resume training easily. I use treats to help a dog understand the GL isn't something to be feared.