[MoosMom]

Ok, Yoshi is coming up on 7 months old and I still don't think I have gotten thru to him. We decided the prong collar was going to be the best tool to help, and so far it does have him paying more attention, but I don't think enough. I have added a clicker and LOT AND LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of hotdogs to the routine. We walk on a leash in the house and the back yard, we loop into the front yard and he does WONDERFUL! He won't leave my side and will pay perfect attention. But he needs more exercise than that and we have to walk around the neighbor hood. Well the second we leave the drive way, hotdogs don't matter anymore, I don't exist and screw the collar, he doesn't care. I can about face and turn into him until I am dizzy and it's no good. I have tried the stand like a tree thing and every time we took a step forward I have to stop right away. He pays me NO ATTENTION when we are out. As far as the hotdogs, IF he behaves to get one he will about snap my finger to get it so he can be off again. Something he won't do when in the house, yard or driveway. Most of our walks are about 4 miles and it's a struggle the whole way and we have been using the prong for about 3 weeks.
The collar is fitted correctly, it's up under his chin and doesn't slide down. I have been using it with the dead ring and I did try to use the active ring today and he just kept on going.

I know I am using the clicker right because in a matter of 15 minutes I had him laying down on command and I don't even have to treat him anymore and he will also sit pretty. He knows how to sit and wait before going thru any doors. He will sit and wait before coming out of the crate. I just don't know what to do. I have started looking for a dog trainer, but I live in a small area and I am not having any luck finding anyone. I am going to try to call the police academy on Monday, I've talked to a few people that said they hold training classes there. Maybe I am just missing something. In anycase I am going crazy and the hotdog company is making bank.

Oh and we have used a choke, a gentle leader, martingale, and he has no response to these. We tried each of them for at least 2 weeks. The gentle leader had a 5 week run and he went absolutely bonkers every time. We also tried on a gentle leader harness and went for a walk and I thought my arm was gonna be numb because he still had a strong urge to pull into it.

Any other advise or training tool suggestions would be great.

[MoosMom]

Anyone have anything?

[jesirose]

He's a baby. It takes time.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by MoosMom

Any other advise or training tool suggestions would be great.

I would suggest that you start over from the begining in teaching a sit means sit/stay and possibly down stay under about any distractions to include body movements and sound influences.

Then I would suggest researching and study the difference between a reactive correction verses a proactive correction and then you might find a resolution to your attention/distraction issues.. In my opinion and experiences using a prong collar for more than 3 weeks for a walking on leash issue is too long in most cases. I would refrain from using this method and tool untill you can make some important modifications in the usage vise you can start to create more problems than you started with in your relationship.

The conditioning process (as you have aluded to) has escalated to a nagging condition from what I gather in your statements to which in my opinion renders the method and collar/tool less and less effective as time goes on at this point.

In addition I suspect that the failure in usage of a choke collar/GL and other physical aversive tools has compounded the problem in your usage of the prong collar in this case which is why I suggest/point to the issues of understanding how and when to use such tools in deliverly of *TRUE CORRECTIONS"


good luck.

[qingcong]

The real key here, is that everytime he gets to move forward while he is totally excited, he is being rewarded for his excitement by moving forward. The fact that you are going 4 miles on your walks and struggling the whole way leads me to believe that he is being more than adequately rewarded for the behavior that you are trying to get rid of.

I know it's tough because you need to balance training with getting enough exercise, but maybe you need to sacrifice the 4 mile walk for now. Once he pulls, he goes backwards. I've found that the stopping and standing like a tree routine tends to increase a dog's anxiety. Turning the other direction when he pulls seems to be a better method than the tree method. Until he learns to walk on the leash, you can give him physical and mental stimulation through play, training, and interactive toys.

While we are on the topic of quick, immediate solutions, have you tried putting a backpack on him? A lot of dogs will calm down once they have a "job".

[TooneyDogs]

Sounds like you've some of the pieces of the puzzle but, haven't quite put them together. The walking (turning around, turning into him, making like a tree, etc.) is only part of 'game'. You still have to show him exactly where he is supposed to be....at your side. That's where you reward.....with the treat on the hip or the knee....you don't deliver the treat to wherever he's standing...he must be at your hip.

For the attention, do a 'crazy walk.....zig/zag or weave.....don't just walk in a straight line because he'll rush ahead everytime because he knows where you're going. That 'crazy walk' forces him to pay attention to you.

[MoosMom]

We have a LONG stretch of road behind our house with no traffic. I guess I am just going to have to stand back there and walk back and forth and stop. I can't put a pack on him yet, he isn't grown.

I always treat him when he is at my side, never when he is in the process of going to my side, and in the house or yard I can even get him to walk at my side without a leash. That's why its becoming so frustrating for me. He KNOWS what I am asking, he just won't do it away from the house. I have even done about 15 minutes of this at home before walking away from the house with him and it's almost an instant thing for him to "forget" what we started. And there is just no way to sacrifice the walk. He is a 70lb malamute puppy and if he doesnt get exercise we pay dearly for it and just playing ball in the yard wont cut it.

I know training sessions should only be around 15 minutes long, but if I walk him on the road out back for the equivalent of 4 miles(oh gawd) is that just going to be pointless??

[MyklClark]

seems to me that your corrections aren't tough enough, or that your puppy has become inured to them. They were probably to gentle in the beginning.

[qingcong]

Originally Posted by MoosMom

That's why its becoming so frustrating for me. He KNOWS what I am asking, he just won't do it away from the house.

Be careful there. Never assume that your dog KNOWS what he is supposed to do. That's one of the mental blocks owners create for themselves and it does nothing but hinder training. It's putting blame on the dog, which is not fair, and it's a form of humanization as it suggests the dog has some sort of rational defiance. Why should a dog KNOW that he needs to heel walk everywhere? There's no equivalent to the heel walk in the natural canine pack world.

To me it sounds like your dog understands heel walking with regard to the yard and driveway, but the main road represents something else to him. You may just need to seek the help of a professional.

Originally Posted by MyklClark

seems to me that your corrections aren't tough enough, or that your puppy has become inured to them. They were probably to gentle in the beginning.

I don't think upping correction intensity on a 7 month old puppy is the best course of action.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by qingcong

I don't think upping correction intensity on a 7 month old puppy is the best course of action.

I am curious as to why you would think this if having no data on what the previous attempts were at reaching a correction

Other than the OP stating that they had tried both connection rings.

Not trying to sound rude ..just curious to that thought/suggestion/comment

[jesirose]

Originally Posted by qingcong

Be careful there. Never assume that your dog KNOWS what he is supposed to do. That's one of the mental blocks owners create for themselves and it does nothing but hinder training. It's putting blame on the dog, which is not fair, and it's a form of humanization as it suggests the dog has some sort of rational defiance. Why should a dog KNOW that he needs to heel walk everywhere? There's no equivalent to the heel walk in the natural canine pack world.

To me it sounds like your dog understands heel walking with regard to the yard and driveway, but the main road represents something else to him. You may just need to seek the help of a professional.




I don't think upping correction intensity on a 7 month old puppy is the best course of action.

Agreed 100%.

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by qingcong

Be careful there. Never assume that your dog KNOWS what he is supposed to do. That's one of the mental blocks owners create for themselves and it does nothing but hinder training. It's putting blame on the dog, which is not fair, and it's a form of humanization as it suggests the dog has some sort of rational defiance. Why should a dog KNOW that he needs to heel walk everywhere? There's no equivalent to the heel walk in the natural canine pack world.

To me it sounds like your dog understands heel walking with regard to the yard and driveway, but the main road represents something else to him. You may just need to seek the help of a professional.

I know that's whats going on with my dog. She does not know what I want from her. In the house she's fine, outside on a walk not.

And now the bad walks have been reinforced to a level it is going to be more difficult and confusing for her to communicate what I do want.

Bottom line I should not have put the priority on the length of the walk and exercise, over teaching her to walk correctly on a leash.

[MoosMom]

I certainly don't think I would want to make a harsh correction with a prong collar! My understanding was it should never be jerked or yanked on. I give him a quick pull on the leash and never use it to manually move him into place, as that is also not its purpose I have read. I did go ahead and pretty much start ALL OVER with him. On Monday we worked on Sit/Stay and Down/Stay in the house. We took a lap around the house after every practice where he heeled nicely. No prong. Yesterday I took it the drive way for Sit/stay and Down/Stay and we heeled on the street. I would only walk as far as we could before he made the attempt to pull and then we IMMEDIATELY changed directions and rewarded for returning to my side. Yesterday was good, I was a bit dizzy but he was paying attention to me. No prong again. Just his jingle bell Christmas collar. I figure I will only continue to walk forward with him providing he doesn't pull. We got a whole block before turning and he really got quite bored with it and that "explore" mentality started going away.

And qingcong thank you thank for reminding me that he may know what to do in the house. I should have thought about that and known better!

[DobManiac]

My first suggestion would be to up the reward. Try something smellier, and harder to resist for the treat. I like to sprinkle hotdogs with garlic powder, and then nuke them in the microwave. The dog can smell that from miles away.

I would also change the location. Move away from your neighborhood, and find somewhere with even less distractions. Work the dog there for awhile, and then change locations again. And maybe this time let the area be a little busier, but not by much. Slowly up the ante with each move of location.

Keep in mind that dogs aren't able to associate the way we do. Just because he knows how to sit in the backyard, does not mean he knows how to sit in front of the neighbor’s house. You will most likely have to teach him in at 6 or 7 locations before he starts to connect the dots.

You also said you are using a clicker. With a prong color, plus treats and clicker I bet your hands are pretty busy for the walk. Change to a marking word or vocal sound instead of the clicker. That should help you to improve your timing as well. Many people will say, “Yes” in a very short but definite manner. It’s not supposed to be praise, just a mark for the behavior.

[RedyreRottweilers]

Using your clicker, teach the dog to target the palm of your left hand by touching it with his nose.

Once you have the dog targeting your palm enthusiastically and reliably, give this behavior a name.

Next, start with just a couple steps of the dog targeting your palm with movement.

Fade the target, and you have a heeling dog. If you run into rough spots, show the target again.

Shape your behavior with visitors the same way. Click and treat for 4 on the floor, and when the dog is consistent, give the behavior a name.

[qingcong]

Originally Posted by sparkle

I am curious as to why you would think this if having no data on what the previous attempts were at reaching a correction

Other than the OP stating that they had tried both connection rings.

Not trying to sound rude ..just curious to that thought/suggestion/comment

I was simply responding to the poster who suggested that the OP should be tougher with their corrections.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by qingcong

I was simply responding to the poster who suggested that the OP should be tougher with their corrections.

By definition no correction was ever administered......

Only a attempt at reaching a correction was instituted/administered and not knowing/observing what that attempt was in my opinion makes it impossible from this vantage point in making a judgement as to what may or may not be approrpriate or needed. I would assume that the stumli level (which was not conveyed other than which connection rings was used) never reached the threshold of acting aas a correction. That is why I was curious as to the comment/opinion on not upping the stimulis level...without having observed or having more details as to the specifics of the implied correction.

I would hope that my curiousity is reasonable when considering what may or may be a appropriate level. Simply putting on a prong collar will not nec gain a resolution....it is all about the many details to how a attempted correction achieves the threshold to act as a correction.

[MoosMom]

Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers

Using your clicker, teach the dog to target the palm of your left hand by touching it with his nose.

Once you have the dog targeting your palm enthusiastically and reliably, give this behavior a name.

Next, start with just a couple steps of the dog targeting your palm with movement.

Fade the target, and you have a heeling dog. If you run into rough spots, show the target again.

Shape your behavior with visitors the same way. Click and treat for 4 on the floor, and when the dog is consistent, give the behavior a name.

Thanx Red, this is a good idea