[Hollyms]

I know it's not for the inexperienced. I want to learn as much about it as I can. Anyone have tips?

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Hollyms

I know it's not for the inexperienced. I want to learn as much about it as I can. Anyone have tips?

Finding a Schutzhund club nearby would be a good start. You should have a lot of basic training knowledge first, though. Basics before the advanced stuff, etc.

[Keechak]

check out the USA website for a club near you

http://www.germanshepherddog.com/

They do accept more than just German Shepherds even tho their websites says "For the German Shepherd Dog"

[Hollyms]

Originally Posted by RBark

Finding a Schutzhund club nearby would be a good start. You should have a lot of basic training knowledge first, though. Basics before the advanced stuff, etc.

Thanks. Thing is, from the reading I've been doing, it seems there is a big distinction between schutzhund and personal protection/guard dog training. I read one website that even said "don't believe a schutzhund-trained dog is a personal protection dog." Interesting....

[Marsh Muppet]

How much/what type of dog training have you done?

Your best bet would probably be to contact the nearest Schutzhund club and offer to help out carrying equipment and whatnot. If the club puts on trials, they can always use an extra pair of hands. Hang around enough hard dogs, in various stages of their training, and you'll get a good feel for how comfortable you are with being bitten.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Hollyms

Thanks. Thing is, from the reading I've been doing, it seems there is a big distinction between schutzhund and personal protection/guard dog training. I read one website that even said "don't believe a schutzhund-trained dog is a personal protection dog." Interesting....

It's not the same thing, no. But there are steps. You don't jump right into the deep end before testing the shallow waters. Whether it is personal protection, schutzhund, agility, herding.... it is all the same thing. It is about learning to control the dog's drive. That's the fundamental basis of all dog competition.

So instead of learning to control a dog's drive in a area of training which might harm people, learn to do it in a sport like Schutzhund which closely mimics personal protection. You have a lot to learn before you should feel in a position to learn how to train a dog in a potentionally life-threatening task.

[Marsh Muppet]

Originally Posted by Hollyms

Thing is, from the reading I've been doing, it seems there is a big distinction between schutzhund and personal protection/guard dog training. I read one website that even said "don't believe a schutzhund-trained dog is a personal protection dog."

There's truth in that, but there's a good deal of overlap in the different types of training. Good training theory and methodology can be transferred to other canine related endeavors.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by Marsh Muppet

Hang around enough hard dogs, in various stages of their training, and you'll get a good feel for how comfortable you are with being bitten.

LOL Is'nt that the truth!

Although I am constantly being told that the measure of a good trainer of such dogs is in the fewest number of times having been bitten.

[Xeph]

Yes. Schutzhund IS a good place to start BECAUSE it is pattern trained. It teaches you how to bring out the drive in the dog, and how to add adequate pressure but not "break" the animal you're working.

And bringing out drive in a puppy is MUCH different than bringing out the drive in a 4 year old experienced dog.

It will teach you how to alter your style for the individual animal you're working. You could work a relatively nervy dog for 10 minutes and then your next dog could be a sharp, civil dog. The two require very different styles of working and you need to know how to adjust for that.

Schutzhund will teach you how to properly catch a dog so the two of you don't get hurt. It will teach you how to properly gauge how you threaten and pressure a dog.

I personally think that the grip sport closest to PP is French Ring, so that may be a good place to try and start too. Same concepts as schutzhund, but the dogs are allowed to grip more than an arm.

[melgrj7]

Find someone and work like a slave for them for the next few years (or more) in exchange for learning from them.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Xeph

Yes. Schutzhund IS a good place to start BECAUSE it is pattern trained. It teaches you how to bring out the drive in the dog, and how to add adequate pressure but not "break" the animal you're working.

And bringing out drive in a puppy is MUCH different than bringing out the drive in a 4 year old experienced dog.

It will teach you how to alter your style for the individual animal you're working. You could work a relatively nervy dog for 10 minutes and then your next dog could be a sharp, civil dog. The two require very different styles of working and you need to know how to adjust for that.

Schutzhund will teach you how to properly catch a dog so the two of you don't get hurt. It will teach you how to properly gauge how you threaten and pressure a dog.

I personally think that the grip sport closest to PP is French Ring, so that may be a good place to try and start too. Same concepts as schutzhund, but the dogs are allowed to grip more than an arm.

I'm probably misunderstanding, but while I know that it's pretty standard for Schutzhund people to train using aversives, it's not a requirement, just that most Schutzhund people are stuck in the stone age still.

You can easily do Schutzhund work without threatening or pressuring your dog.

[Xeph]

RBark, I'm speaking of the HELPER work, not the handler When moving into the dog and working into the stick hits, this is the pressure and threat I'm referring to Pressure and threat is a necessary part of the work (why bite if there is no threat/pressure to?).

[hulkamaniac]

Get lots and lots and lots of insurance. If you train a protection dog and it bites someone. You and the owner of the dog will likely get sued.

[wvasko]

Let's not put the cart before the horse as it takes a while for a would be agitator to become an agitator/helper that can read a pup/dog properly and that is kindergarten and grade school work to just become a bite dummy. That does not a trainer make that is just the bare minimum start. The training and handling of the dogs is high school and college etc work. My opinion only.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Xeph

RBark, I'm speaking of the HELPER work, not the handler When moving into the dog and working into the stick hits, this is the pressure and threat I'm referring to Pressure and threat is a necessary part of the work (why bite if there is no threat/pressure to?).

Ah, ok, thanks for clarifying.

[wvasko]

A dog when biting and hanging on the arm is given 1 or 2 sharp hits with a stick across shoulders to test their drive and courage.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by wvasko

A dog when biting and hanging on the arm is given 1 or 2 sharp hits with a stick across shoulders to test their drive and courage.

Yeah I knew that, I just assumed that Xeph was saying the handler had to learn how to threaten her dog to the point just before it breaks, in order to train it in Schutzhund work. I thought that idea was bizarre. But now seeing that she's referring to the person getting bitten, I agree. No sense knocking the dog out on it's first time biting a person. Probably won't bite a person ever again, and you'd have a useless schutzhund dog.

That said, I was working on Schutzhund training with Priscilla. However I did not plan on competing, because I'm not a fan of the part where they hit the dog. I understand the goal of it, but doesn't mean I agree with it. So, I just wanted to do the training for fun, without that one part.

[wvasko]

In years past flanking was used to anger some dogs to start biting. To do the job properly flanking is not necessary. Pain is not necessary to make a well bred dog bite somebody. Victories are needed not pain.

Trust me on this, the strikes with stick across shoulders is not done hard enough to damage the dog. I will say 99% of the dogs by the time they get to that phase of training do not feel it. The individual drives in a dog that would feel it, would in all probability never make it that far. These dogs would be weeded out for lack of drives needed.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by wvasko

In years past flanking was used to anger some dogs to start biting. To do the job properly flanking is not necessary. Pain is not necessary to make a well bred dog bite somebody. Victories are needed not pain.

Yeah, I never really needed to force Pris to bite. It's all a game, just like playing tug. The only difference is the tug toy is the material on the person's arm. So you train it the same way you train a dog to grip hard on a tug toy. No punishment needed to do that, just motivation through reinforcement.

[wvasko]

Done properly the bite is the motivation/reward all rolled up into one neat pkg.