[Dog_Shrink]

OK mike so you would rather crush your dog's larynx with a choke chain because it does exactly like the name says... chokes... and being more aggressive with a choke collar is just going to make a dog more resistant. A prong collar is actually designed to simulate the natural correction that a dog would have received from it's mother or litter mates... put one on your thigh some day (if it'll fit) and try it...

Now I know why your pup is soooo stotic... you yell at it and force it and are hostile with it... you're gonna ruine your mutt. THAT is no way to train a dog through hostility. My 13 week old pup walks beautifully on a lead and has from the first time she ever had one on with NO experience coaxing or hostility. And she had never been on lead either... went from the shelter in West virginia to the rescue in latrobe Pa... never ever saw a leash or collar in her life.

lastly I don't know how you think I got "served" but whatever... the way I use prong collars is to MINIMIZE the amount of un-needed correction and the porper correction on prongs is slight pops not nagging pulling. Keeping a prong higher and tight on the neck is going to give dog constant correction and THAT is cruel. And yes e-collars are EXTREMELY hostile... remember lightening is also just a "static" discharge.

ps..."You'll need to musle him fwd and raise your voice may help. Learning to walk on the leash is always a painful lesson and you can use negative re-enformacement, but only use it on those important things." THIS is a crock of $h*t... do this and I guarantee you that dog will NEVER come around and only associate the leash and walking on it with a negative expereince... but go ahead and try this on a sensitive breed like your mutt and see where it gets you. You might want a dog that works out of the fear of reprocussion rather than the anticipation of reward but most don't. Using a prong collar properly is indirect corretion... the dog realises I pull therefore I get pinched and has no hostility towards You because it was his action that caused the reaction... not some jackass shouting and choking them to get them to move.

"Again I would just be a bit more forcefull with what you have. Learning to walk is painful for the dog and usually involves negative re-enforcement. A 40lb dog you'll really have to muscle him and you might think your really hurting him but don't worry about it. It's part of training and he wont hold it against you." This is also a HUGE crock of $H*t... the dog will absolutely hold it against you... a good leader is suppose to be firm but fair not hostile and aggressive... Learning to walk on lead or training in general should NOT be a painful experience for the dog... and BTW prong collar points are rounded and don't JAB the dog... it applies EVEN pressure all the way around the neck and is designed to NOT crush the larynx like traditional choke chains which should be sitting right next to the iron maiden.

Why don't you stick to what you do best Mike... whatever that is but it certainly isn't canine behavior or training. I'm pretty sure the OP would rather listen to a certified behaviorest with 17 years experience rather than some know nothing mainstream idiot like yourself. Please call me out again... I love making you look like the idiot you are.

[DobManiac]

Originally Posted by Dog_Shrink

lastly I don't know how you think I got "served" but whatever... the way I use prong collars is to MINIMIZE the amount of un-needed correction and the porper correction on prongs is slight pops not nagging pulling. Keeping a prong higher and tight on the neck is going to give dog constant correction and THAT is cruel. And yes e-collars are EXTREMELY hostile... remember lightening is also just a "static" discharge.

I've always been instructed to not allow a prong collar to hang loose on the dog’s neck. My dogs were it about an inch under their ears, but it isn't actually poking into their skin. It just lays snug enough against the fur to keep the collar from falling down their neck. After all, the goal is to always have slack in the leash. For instance, my leash always hangs about a couple of feet loose when the dog is in a heel position. If your leash is lose, then there won't be any pressure in a properly placed prong collar.

ETA: I also always use the itty bitty links since they don't look as harsh on the dog. I have noticed that people tend to view a dog on a prong as aggressive or unruly. And I've never had a problem using the little links. The only way I can see an issue is if the dog constantly pulled and you were having to do repetitive corrections. Mine don't have an issue with that. Dusk is 80 lbs, and I've never had to replace a link.

[Dog_Shrink]

Yes Dobmaniac that is the traditional ideal behind prong collar is to use them high and tight and I have always disagreed with that philosophy... I find it to be too stressful for overly sensitive breeds and we don't want to increase anxiety while training but relieve it. I'm glad that you realise that you are using the wrong size link for your breed of dog and are smart enough to use it properly or it could be disasterous for the dog. Again tho this arguement comes down to personal preference and this is how I instruct my client's to use the prong... if the dog ends up needing more correction then the collar is raised to high and tight but 98% of the time we never have to get to that point. After a couple of correctins of the collar being loose the dog generally gets the idea that "I shouldn't pull" and we never need to be more hostile than that. I aklso agree that people do look at you funny when you use the prong collar but that is just because the don't understand the premice behind it. I have had several people comment to me abut them at PetSmart duing socializing ventures and even had them put ther hands between my dog's collar and his neck just to see for themselves how little the collar actually produced as far as pain.

[DobManiac]

Originally Posted by Dog_Shrink

Yes Dobmaniac that is the traditional ideal behind prong collar is to use them high and tight and I have always disagreed with that philosophy... I find it to be too stressful for overly sensitive breeds and we don't want to increase anxiety while training but relieve it.

Well, I can’t comment on how different breeds would react, as I have only trained Dobermans. But Ollie does tend to be on the more sensitive side, so I added the plastic tips on to her collar. And that made the correction a good deal gentler. I also tend to use mostly voice corrections with her anyway. She is super willing to please, and I don’t see the point in using a collar correction unless the dog is distracted or trying to be outwardly stubborn.

Originally Posted by Dog_Shrink

I'm glad that you realise that you are using the wrong size link for your breed of dog and are smart enough to use it properly or it could be disasterous for the dog.

I wouldn’t say I “realize” that I’m using the wrong collar. My training facility recommends this size collar for Dobermans. And this was from someone that competes regularly in obedience with my breed. But as you said, it all comes down to personal preference, and the temperament of that individual dog. Dusk is horribly strong, but he is also putty in my hands. So it really has never taken much to get all 80 lbs of him to give me his attention. But he’s also a bit of a pushover.

[Dog_Shrink]

Awww I have an Ollie too but Mine is an 80 pound boxer/am bull mix... he's an 80 pound cat tho...he rarely gets off the couch



I love it when he gives me the stink eye... just like "geesh there's that stinkin camera again... I'd love to see more pics of your dobermans... I've always admired their beauty and intelligence.

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by mikedavid00

Again I would just be a bit more forcefull with what you have. Learning to walk is painful for the dog and usually involves negative re-enforcement. A 40lb dog you'll really have to muscle him and you might think your really hurting him but don't worry about it. It's part of training and he wont hold it against you.

Interesting, My 70lb and 48lb GSD's walk fine, both from a shelter, without a prong or choke or a shock collar...

I must be really lucky.

A prong does sound like a cheap easy thing to try though.

Or you can try instead of stopping, reversing direction, or circling when he pulls. You may look goofy reversing directions every few minutes for days, but it can work. Basicallly see if he will learn a pull to go somewhere=going the opposite way from what he wants, and not pulling means he gets to go there.

Also watch your route. Dogs will pull more a lot if they have a set route to walk, change it up every time a bit, go the opposite direction around blocks, keep it so it's not so much of a routine that he can predict and anticipate.

Hounds can be pretty stubborn though, good luck.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Dog_Shrink

Yes Dobmaniac that is the traditional ideal behind prong collar is to use them high and tight and I have always disagreed with that philosophy... I find it to be too stressful for overly sensitive breeds and we don't want to increase anxiety while training but relieve it. I'm glad that you realise that you are using the wrong size link for your breed of dog and are smart enough to use it properly or it could be disasterous for the dog. Again tho this arguement comes down to personal preference and this is how I instruct my client's to use the prong... if the dog ends up needing more correction then the collar is raised to high and tight but 98% of the time we never have to get to that point. After a couple of correctins of the collar being loose the dog generally gets the idea that "I shouldn't pull" and we never need to be more hostile than that. I aklso agree that people do look at you funny when you use the prong collar but that is just because the don't understand the premice behind it. I have had several people comment to me abut them at PetSmart duing socializing ventures and even had them put ther hands between my dog's collar and his neck just to see for themselves how little the collar actually produced as far as pain.

Kellee
Ditto on everything.

DobManiac is correct also because if the dogs she works perform properly you can't argue with success. This silly stuff, working dogs does not come down to a one size fits all program. The time allotted for training individual dogs is a huge ingredient to add to the dog training recipe.

[RedyreRottweilers]

IMO, the "secret" to teaching a dog to walk on a loose lead is GETTING a loose lead so you can reward the dog for it.

This is a lot more technique and management than it is what kind of collar you are using. I have worked with a LOT of dogs and I have never seen a one that I could not get to walking fairly consistently on a loose lead in MINUTES.

A major problem is that so many people unconsciously keep their dogs on a tight lead! While *I* can take their dog and instantly get a loose lead, and reward the dog for the loose lead, and never let them get it tight again, this involves technique, timing, and skills that have to be developed.

The leash is like a security blanket for so many people and they just don't feel comfortable unless they can feel the dog on the other end.

In 30+ years of training dogs, I have never used an electronic collar, and I have used prong collars only for polishing a dog for the competition obedience rings. (FWIW, I fit the prong high up on the neck right behind the ears with little to no slack. The dog is on a LOOSE LEASH unless I am giving a correction).

As time has gone by I have gravitated to much more positive training methods, and my prong collars have been hanging un used for several years.

I routinely walk 2 adult Rottweilers together around my town, and they also pull me in a sulky. In the past I have walked THREE at a time. There is simply no pulling allowed, EVER, unless it's the cart.

[mikedavid00]

If you support the use a prong collar, then you suppor the use of choke chains, shock collars, etc.

Same thing.

I never wanted to get one because I felt it was cruel. The choke or mild shock doesn't hurt the dog. The prong collar actually inflicts pain.

I hope some new potential dog owners are whitnessing the hypocracy with the enthusiasts. This is another example. Also the pit bull not being agressive and great family pets, yet they not trust their own dog alone with their children. That is hypocracy. The dog is either safe or it's not. You are inflicting pain on the dog to get it to what you want or you are not.

To the OP,

The dog is going to have pain if he's going to walk on the leash and with a full grown dog it might suprise how much you have to muscle him.

Or, you can do the lead trick which is positive and non painful. Someone mentioned it. It's where you lure it forward by treats.

Chocke chains are the most popular dog chain for a reason. When you tug the dog where you want him to go, he will go. My dog is no problem on the leash. But trust me, he was flipping and flayling all over the place the moment he got it on. It took a few days for him to get use to it and now if he goes near mud or something, I just need a small tug and he'll move away. He knows what happens when he resists the collar. This is WHY a choke chain is the MOST POPULAR CHAIN SOLD.

I'm suggesting with a 40lb dog and not a puppy, You'll really have to really pull. If you hear an audible choking sound from the dog, ease off. Don't pull that hard. Try to pull and give a treat at the same time. Since the dog isn't a light puppy, the chance of the dog having some broken neck or something is highly, highly, unlikely.

That's how you train a dog to walk. The prong collar also works in the same way but if neighbours and such see it they will think it's cruel. I personally wouldn't use it becuase it doesn't sit well with me if the dog gets cut and such.

After the 3rd day, he'll be walking fine and after a week will be responding to tugs.

But wow at 40lbs your going to have to musle him.

[Marsh Muppet]

Originally Posted by mikedavid00

Blah blah blah blah...non sequitur...blah blah blah....

Fascinating.

[Dog_Shrink]

Again Mike all I can say is WOW to your ignorance... thank you SO much for pointing out exactly how to NOT train a dog but instill fear based behaviors. Prong collars and choke chains are NOT the same except that they are both made of metal. Prong points are blunt and dull and can even be capped for a lesser degere of correction. They do not Cut the dog, they aren't cruel and no where near as hostile as a shock collar... btw what kind of idiot are you to put a 9-ish week old pup on a choke chain to the point of them flipping and flailing at the end of the lead... you truly are an idiot. I DO NOT SUPPORT CHOKE CHAINS AND E-COLLARS... THEY are inhumane. You can not "break" a dog's neck using a prong collar but you CAN crush their Larynx (their windpipe for the stupid) using a choke chain very easily esp. on a small or young dog. Why are they the most popular collar... because they are cheap and most people have been programmed that those are the way to go, BUT even at that most people are smartening up to the fact that there are much better options out there aside from the cruelty inflicted by choke chains.

Wow just so much stupidity to refute... You shouldn't have to constantly "pull" your dog to cotrrect it on lead... have you ever heard of VERBAL direction??? My 13 week old pup responds wonderfully to clicks and kissy noises and she is walked on a simple flat nylon collar,and at that age you still have the beauty of the laws of social attraction that makes them WANT to stay close to you so if your pup is heading for the hills when you grab it's lead... well you put 2 and 2 together. Training does not equal Pain... a dog should NOT have pain if he is going to walk on a leash and inflicting pain while training a dog to walk on lead (yet again repeating myself) is ONLY going to make the dog averse to walking on lead. Dogs should work out of anticipatin of reward and it should not be out of fear of reprisal... Wow you never learn... I would HATE to be a dog in your home.

Redy you offered some wonderful advice in your tips for loose lead walking and I would love to go carting with your rotties... that sounds like a blast! Please people take the replies of the educated dog PROFESSIONALS and not the misguided ramblings of an alcoholic misfit as gospel. (yes Mike that was directed towards You).

[RedyreRottweilers]

Originally Posted by mikedavid00

If you support the use a prong collar, then you suppor the use of choke chains, shock collars, etc.

Same thing.

All the above are training tools. I know people who use electronic collars to train their dogs. They are not used in an abusive manner. They are, like any other training tool, as kind or as cruel as the hand that is using them.

Slip collars should not be called choke collars. They are NOT intended to choke the dog. If a dog on a slip collar has a tight lead, the collar is USELESS, and the handler needs education and help with technique.

Originally Posted by mikedavid00

I never wanted to get one because I felt it was cruel. The choke or mild shock doesn't hurt the dog. The prong collar actually inflicts pain.

I hope some new potential dog owners are whitnessing the hypocracy with the enthusiasts. This is another example. Also the pit bull not being agressive and great family pets, yet they not trust their own dog alone with their children. That is hypocracy. The dog is either safe or it's not. You are inflicting pain on the dog to get it to what you want or you are not.

Everything in this above paragraph is WRONG. People who do not leave dogs and children alone together are using their BRAIN. Kids will be kids, and dogs will be dogs, and they should NOT be left together to make their own decisions as to how to interact. ANY dog will bite if put in a situation which it finds overwhelming. What these situations are vary widely from dog to dog, according to the inherited temperament and the early training and socialization of the dog. SMART PEOPLE do not take chances, with the kids, or the dogs.

Originally Posted by mikedavid00

To the OP,

The dog is going to have pain if he's going to walk on the leash and with a full grown dog it might suprise how much you have to muscle him.

I invite you to come to my home and try to muscle one of my dogs into doing something. This statement is actually SO IGNORANT I can hardly believe I am reading it. The most powerful training tool for ANY dog is the human brain. All my dogs except the baby puppies who are here, are stronger and much quicker and more powerful than I am. I use my BRAIN to train these dogs. They NEVER pull me, or pull on the leash, because I am smart enough and I have made it my business over many years to learn other ways of dealing with these training issues. NO DOG should arbitrarily be subjected to pain in training! My dogs work WITH me, as a team, using their intelligence to earn the rewards that they know are coming if they interact with me and perform.

Originally Posted by mikedavid00

Or, you can do the lead trick which is positive and non painful. Someone mentioned it. It's where you lure it forward by treats.

I don't use much luring once puppies are past 8-12 weeks and have learned, in a VERY positive way to follow along with me and not pull BACKWARDS on the leash. They are NEVER put in a position to feel pressure on the leash. NOT EVER. I am very careful of this from the very beginning. The collar and leash for my dogs is ALWAYS a positive experience. If I pick up a leash or a collar around here, my dogs MOB me, hoping to be the one who gets to play with me. And yes, that is what they think it is!

Originally Posted by mikedavid00

Chocke chains are the most popular dog chain for a reason. When you tug the dog where you want him to go, he will go. My dog is no problem on the leash. But trust me, he was flipping and flayling all over the place the moment he got it on. It took a few days for him to get use to it and now if he goes near mud or something, I just need a small tug and he'll move away. He knows what happens when he resists the collar. This is WHY a choke chain is the MOST POPULAR CHAIN SOLD.

I'm suggesting with a 40lb dog and not a puppy, You'll really have to really pull. If you hear an audible choking sound from the dog, ease off. Don't pull that hard. Try to pull and give a treat at the same time. Since the dog isn't a light puppy, the chance of the dog having some broken neck or something is highly, highly, unlikely.

That's how you train a dog to walk.

TO ANYONE READING THIS: YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER GET INTO A PULLING CONTEST WITH YOUR DOG. YOU CAN INJURE THE DOG'S NECK FOR LIFE BY DOING THIS, PLUS YOU WILL NEVER TEACH THE DOG NOT TO PULL BY PULLING YOURSELF.

This is NOT how you train a dog to walk. IF it were, there would not be numbers of people every single day on this and other forums asking how to STOP their dogs from pulling.

Originally Posted by mikedavid00

The prong collar also works in the same way but if neighbours and such see it they will think it's cruel. I personally wouldn't use it becuase it doesn't sit well with me if the dog gets cut and such.

PRONG collars do not cause injury to the dog. IMO, prong collars should not be used to address a pulling issue except in isolated circumstances, VERY UNUSUAL, where nothing else works, and it is a situation that is dangerous to the dog and the handler.

One thing no one has mentioned, and that is SOME dogs, when subjected to the actions of a prong collar, will retaliate by biting or attacking the handler. I call it "going up your arm". Prong collars in the beginning should ALWAYS be used with a second collar and leash that are not attached to the prong collar. Once a dog is accustomed to the prong, and his reactions have been observed, you can eliminate the second leash, but a second collar should always be used as a backup, because the prong can release unexpectedly if the links come apart.

[ara28]

Originally Posted by mikedavid00

The dog is going to have pain if he's going to walk on the leash and with a full grown dog it might suprise how much you have to muscle him.


I'm suggesting with a 40lb dog and not a puppy, You'll really have to really pull. If you hear an audible choking sound from the dog, ease off. Don't pull that hard. Try to pull and give a treat at the same time. Since the dog isn't a light puppy, the chance of the dog having some broken neck or something is highly, highly, unlikely.

But wow at 40lbs your going to have to musle him.

mike, That is some of the worst advice I have ever heard.

At 57lbs, my dog is more than half my weight and he doesn't pull. I've never used anything other than a flat nylon buckle collar on him.

If he wanted to drag me down the road, I'm sure he could because he is strong.

We work together and all of our walks are very pleasant for us both.

[Herrick's Mommy]

I never wanted to get one because I felt it was cruel. The choke or mild shock doesn't hurt the dog. The prong collar actually inflicts pain.

Um, weren't you the one that actually suggested the use of a surgery to calm down a barking dog? and you say that you don't want to cause a dog pain? You're an idiot, but we already figured that

[sparkle]

The TRUTH as I see it

1. Actually some prongs can and DO cut when you consider the usage of the cheaply made ones that you can buy . These cheap brands usually have rather sharp cut off edges (verses the smooth rounded edges on the better machined ones) on them and are likely to cut into a dogs skin depending on the placement, usage, and dogs coat/neck condition ect.

2. Prong collars can be snug fitting , loose fitting, and positioned anywhere on a dogs neck depending on the dog and application/situation.

3. On many models there is a secondary loop for attaching the leash too to allow for a different stimuli/effect.

4. Whether a e-collar (or any collar/tethering device) is inhuman DEPENDS entirely/specifically on the many ways in which one can be used. Flat collars/buckle collars CAN BE used in a inhuman manner depending on the specifics.

5. Actually it is possible to break a dogs neck on a prong collar but highly less likely to choke a dog.

6. Prong collars and choke collars are designed as a tool to administer discomfort or pain DEPENDING on specifically how one uses one or the other. In summary the dogs behavior is (hopefully) changed in extinguishing a targeted behavior in a manner that would cause the dog (to change a behavior) not to want to experience such a discomfort or pain again..Thus meeting the definition of a aversive physical correction . The use of such a tool in a way that administers discomfort or pain amounts to conditioning behavior by force, intimidation, fear or reprisal/aversive consequence.

7. The use of a prong collar along with the wrong method/approach/process can not only cause physical injury but can condition a host of backlash negative behaviors to include but not limited to flight or fight behaviors, associations, distrust, disrespect, ect, ect, ect ,ect ,ect.

8. Everyone seems to have different opinions..who is telling the truth?

What do I type in the search engine to google the real truth?

[FilleBelle]

Originally Posted by sparkle

5. Actually it is possible to break a dogs neck on a prong collar but highly less likely to choke a dog.

How is a prong collar any more likely to break a dog's neck than a flat buckle nylon collar? I can't imagine myself being able to tug hard enough on ANY collar to break a dog's neck. Could you explain the mechanics of this to me?

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by FilleBelle

How is a prong collar any more likely to break a dog's neck than a flat buckle nylon collar? I can't imagine myself being able to tug hard enough on ANY collar to break a dog's neck. Could you explain the mechanics of this to me?

I was not clear at all on #5 .

I meant to say (IN reference to a previous post in this thread)

[quote]I DO NOT SUPPORT CHOKE CHAINS AND E-COLLARS... THEY are inhumane. You can not "break" a dog's neck using a prong collar but you CAN crush their Larynx (their windpipe for the stupid) using a choke chain very easily esp. on a small or young dog. [\quote]


that although a prong collar is far less likely to choke a dog compared to a choke collar it can still be used in a manner as to break a dogs neck...so can a flat/buckle collar under certain situations/circumstances.

[lizziedog1]

I don't think there is a right or wrong collar, just right or wrong way to use them. Just like there are right and wrong ways to use just about any training method.

If you go to your local feed store and buy a sack of dog treats, then come home and smack your dog in the head with it, it has lost its effectiveness as a training method.