[GrittyDog]

Hi folks, I'm new to this forum and figured I'd start off with a training question.

I have a 6 year old German Shepherd. He's a chronic barker, and is very reactive to people and noises.

We have taught him that he needs to be quiet in the car, even when people are walking around. He is quiet when we are there, but if we leave him in the car for 10 minutes to run into a store, we come back to fogged up windows and slobber all over the windshield, dashboard, steering wheel, and all the side windows, because he's been barking at everyone within 6, maybe even 7 miles radius.

This in itself isn't our biggest issue - since we can just crate him in the back of the car, now that we have an appropriately sized crate that fits in the car, and he'll be quiet.

However - the problem comes with his behavior in our back yard. Again, if I am out there with him he is quiet. If he is left alone, he simply doesn't shut up! He was raised as a house dog where these things aren't a big deal, he is quiet in the house and just lies down and sleeps, or chews on a bone.

Unfortunately, for the past year we've been living in a house where the landlords don't allow dogs inside. We do have a very nice barn, and a fenced off section of yard. Quite a big section, plenty of space. The barn door is left open and he has access to a cozy stall with bedding, a crate-without-door if he wants to sleep in his crate, and a covered porch area outside if he wants to be outside but sheltered.

He is always with our little (36lbs 21") female dog, and they are best friends. She is typically quiet unless there really is something to be barking at, which is rare, and she stops barking as soon as whatever she was barking at is gone.

Due to our living situation, he's had to get used to being in the yard with the female. We spend a lot of time exercising the dogs, taking them to parks, playing with them, training with them etc. I'm sure there's times when he's bored, but it's not because there's nothing to do, it's because he's just that type of dog. He wants to be in the house, and he will leave a meaty bone after 5 minutes of chewing to go sit at the fence, no matter how hard it's raining, and stare at the house through the fence... which eventually leads to aimless yipping.

Before we fixed his in-car barking issue, it was clear that he doesn't NEED to bark, he does it out of habit. He will actually start barking looking in the wrong direction, then start looking around to see if there's actually something worth barking at. In the meantime, the female (who only barks when there is something worth barking at) will look at him like he's an idiot. She used to look around anxiously trying to find what he was barking at, but because he doesn't bark at anything in particular, she stopped paying attention to his barking.

Incidentally, we ignore his barking rather than thinking someone is coming up to our front door. Only when the female barks do we think "oh someone must be coming up the driveway!" His barking is just ridiculous now.

We have tried:

- Yelling at him to shut up. He doesn't understand what he's being told to do, even though he does know his "speak" and "quiet" commands. He just acts submissive, then as soon as you walk away he is back up and running around, even barking immediately after.

- E-collar. He has ridiculously long fur around his neck, so the e-collar doesn't contact his skin. I have even trimmed the hair around his neck, and the e-collar will work, but the rest of the fur is so thick that the strap doesn't sit tight (short of putting it TOO tight and him having difficulty breathing), so the e-collar contacts (even the 24 hour contact pad I recently bought) end up rubbing a big sore into his neck. So I no longer will use the e-collar on him. I had tried the e-collar several years ago and gotten the same result (after only a few hours of wearing it). I gave it another try when I got the 24 hour contact pad, but it still rubs him raw.

- Muzzle. Your typical vet-type muzzle that holds the mouth shut. He used to bark in the crate, and wearing the muzzle for a few nights (still able to breath, and in cold weather) fixed the barking-in-the-morning habit. But in the yard, he still barks through the muzzle.

- Husher Muzzle. A muzzle that is elasticized to make it strenuous to keep his mouth open to bark, but allows panting and drinking. He barks through this too. It does quieten him some, but it's a bandaid rather than a fix. He doesn't get that he shouldn't be barking, he just tries to bark through it. Less so, but he still does it.

I don't really know what to do. Even as I type this, he's been in the yard barking away. Not at anything in particular. I just hear woof.... woof.... woof.... woof... woof woof.... woof.... woof.... and I want to go outside and kill him right about now.

Does anyone have any ideas? Putting stuff out there to occupy him doesn't occupy him long enough. He would rather sit at the fence barking for hours in the harshest pouring rain, than go into the barn where it's warm and cozy and chew on a bone.

I'm at a loss. One of these days the neighbors are going to change their "oh we don't really notice it" attitude to "we're going to shoot your dog if he keeps this up!"

[Elana55]

Move to a place where the dog can come inside with you or ask the landlord if he will take extra money each month for the dog living inside.

[canteloupe]

Originally Posted by Elana55

Move to a place where the dog can come inside with you or ask the landlord if he will take extra money each month for the dog living inside.

What she said.

[Thracian]

Yeah, this sounds like a dog that just desperately wants to be with you. You've tried a lot of things that haven't worked. It's extremely difficult to train a dog to do something (not bark) when you aren't out there with him.

Is there any way he can come inside, even part of the time? I'd talk to the landlord. If you've been tenants for a while, he might know you're responsible and will lighten up a little.

[canteloupe]

I think this landlord's rule is kind of dumb. If anything, having outdoor-only dogs creates much more of a liability.

[NRB]

place the dog in a new home where he can be inside and with his people?? Have you thought of that option?

[didee]

I completely agree. If you can't move, can you make a deal with your landlord that part of the house would be used by the dog but the rest wouldn't, e.g., it would be restricted to the first floor? What's happening now is not fair to the dog or the neighbors and, tick tock, if the dog is barking that much, I am surprised no one has called Animal Control yet. You don't want that. Schmooze your landlord.

[FaithFurMom09]

Not to sound mean, but why did you get the dog if he is outside 24/7?

If youve had him and then moved to where you cant have him, then you should of picked a better place or re-homed.

[Xeph]

I must agree :-/

A GSD is a "Be with my people" kind of dog. This has nothing to do with boredom...he wants to be with his family.

These dogs have been bred for 107 years to be extremely loyal, biddable, and attached to their people. They've worked in extremely close proximity with their handlers for a century and that genetic bond cannot be broken (regardless of the dog's breeding).

[TxRider]

Have you tried any of the anti barking devices that makes an ultrasonic sound each time they bark?

Like some of these?

http://www.ultimatebarkcontrol.com/

http://www.barkingdogs.net/soundremoteneighbor.shtml

Many come with a money back guarantee.

I have used a similar kind of thing with neighbors barky dogs that bark non stop when I go outside. I just make a weird noise that makes them stop and listen each time they bark, and eventually they don't bark non stop when I go out and sit outside any more.

These do it with a different kind of noise automatically. But if he is barking because he wants to be with you and wants your attention it might or might not work so well.

Other than that maybe a remote baby monitor or walkie talkie type thing out in the barn so you can call him in there with a voice remotely when he sits at the fence barking? Maybe retrain him to think the barn is the closest place to be near you?

[GrittyDog]

This is just ridiculous!

I've had the dog for 6 years, he doesn't like anyone else, he's moved with me to 3 countries on 2 continents and been on 30,000 miles worth of road trips, been in countless hotels and accompanied us everywhere. Rehoming him just isn't going to happen. We're moving next year, but our lease isn't up till July and he needs to shut up until then.

If I came on here posting about rehoming a dog, I'd get reamed for not keeping a dog LOL. I know how this pet-owner stuff works. I've trained working/police dogs for over 10 years, I've bought, sold, and trained many many dogs over the years. The only reason this guy gets to stick around is because he is "MY" dog, and while he is the most disobedient, stubborn, borderline untrainable pain in the ass dog I've ever owned, I really like him.

The ultrasonic post was the best one on the thread, unfortunately it also means the non-barking dogs get corrected when the big guy barks, so that's not an option.

So to recap: Moving next year, can't have dog in house, dog has 5 acres to run around and do what he likes, not rehoming him, looking for training solution that I haven't already thought of myself. Any takers?

Thanks.

[canteloupe]

Only two people suggested rehoming. You didn't respond to all the suggestions that you discuss it further with your landlord. And possibly see if s/he would accept an additional pet security deposit, or extra money each month.

[Elana55]

What Canteloupe said. If there were a good training solution, that would have been suggested or you, with all your reported experience, would have thought of it.

There is one more solution and likely one you won't like and won't be acceptable to most of the posters on this forum:

Take the dog to the Vet and Debark the dog.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by GrittyDog

This is just ridiculous!

I've had the dog for 6 years, he doesn't like anyone else, he's moved with me to 3 countries on 2 continents and been on 30,000 miles worth of road trips, been in countless hotels and accompanied us everywhere. Rehoming him just isn't going to happen. We're moving next year, but our lease isn't up till July and he needs to shut up until then.

If I came on here posting about rehoming a dog, I'd get reamed for not keeping a dog LOL. I know how this pet-owner stuff works. I've trained working/police dogs for over 10 years, I've bought, sold, and trained many many dogs over the years. The only reason this guy gets to stick around is because he is "MY" dog, and while he is the most disobedient, stubborn, borderline untrainable pain in the ass dog I've ever owned, I really like him.

The ultrasonic post was the best one on the thread, unfortunately it also means the non-barking dogs get corrected when the big guy barks, so that's not an option.

So to recap: Moving next year, can't have dog in house, dog has 5 acres to run around and do what he likes, not rehoming him, looking for training solution that I haven't already thought of myself. Any takers?

Thanks.

You do realize that with the dog training experience you have, your just not gonna find much help if any here. Especially when asking about a dog that you admit is

he is the most disobedient, stubborn, borderline untrainable pain in the ass dog I've ever owned, I really like him.

and then expect people online to help and then vent at these people. I think this dog falls into the "you grew it, you chew it" niche. As a long, long, long time trainer, I too have through the years met dogs that were very tough dogs to train. I liked and respected these dogs for various reasons.

I knew that I would never get help I needed on a DF as people here are basically well meaning amateurs with a few more advanced people tossed in. But the advanced still are not going to be able to long-distance train your dog. Especially when you do an online sissy slap at the people that did try to help. Good luck with your problem dog.

[Cracker]

This is a tough situation for you and especially for your dog. Does he do any other behaviours besides the barking? Does he hypersalivate or dig or chew on the fence or barn doors? Could this be a separation anxiety issue rather than a "training" issue?

It seems you spend a lot of time taking the dog out and about (exercise and social time) which is great..but how much time do you spend interacting with the dog in the yard and barn itself? Could it be he associates the yard with little or no human contact?

Can you teach him to go to his kennel in the barn on cue?

If this is anxious behaviour (combined with the genetic propensity for guarding/vocalization) you may want to consider a relaxation protocol combined with medication to help him adapt to outside living.

Punishment in this case obviously is not effective, so finding a creative way to reward him for quiet and calm is probably the best approach I could recommend.

It's also important to realize that the folks here care about your dog, and any suggestions that you don't like are not meant to be insulting or anything else...so if you don't like the suggestion, just ignore it and move on. None of us here deserve to be "slapped" as WVasko called it...and as you see it only increases the difficulty in communications already inherent in online discussion.

[js19]

Originally Posted by Cracker

This is a tough situation for you and especially for your dog. Does he do any other behaviours besides the barking? Does he hypersalivate or dig or chew on the fence or barn doors? Could this be a separation anxiety issue rather than a "training" issue?

It seems you spend a lot of time taking the dog out and about (exercise and social time) which is great..but how much time do you spend interacting with the dog in the yard and barn itself? Could it be he associates the yard with little or no human contact?

Can you teach him to go to his kennel in the barn on cue?

If this is anxious behaviour (combined with the genetic propensity for guarding/vocalization) you may want to consider a relaxation protocol combined with medication to help him adapt to outside living.

Punishment in this case obviously is not effective, so finding a creative way to reward him for quiet and calm is probably the best approach I could recommend.

It's also important to realize that the folks here care about your dog, and any suggestions that you don't like are not meant to be insulting or anything else...so if you don't like the suggestion, just ignore it and move on. None of us here deserve to be "slapped" as WVasko called it...and as you see it only increases the difficulty in communications already inherent in online discussion.

+1

I'm amazed how many posts it took to get here. It sounds like classic separation anxiety. I wouldn't be surprised if the dog thought he was the alpha in the pack.

The OP should ask himself:
who eats first?
who goes through doors first?
does he ever pull on the leash?
does he come and put himself on you/in your lap/on your furniture without permission from you first?

If yes to any of those questions, you need to establish your dominance. Once you've done that, you should practice leaving the dog like it's no big deal. There's tons of stuff you can read on this subject. The thing is, with a GSD you're going to have to be consistent. Make the rules and stick to them. Your dog will be happier that way. Oh and yelling won't help at all. I'm sure you get frustrated, but yelling makes it worse. We had a dog like this when I was a kid (actually a GSD/collie mix), and it never stopped barking. Unfortunately, my parents never too the time to understand dog behaviour, so the problem was never really fixed. We lived on 5 acres and we still got thousands in fines and neighbors that hated us over the years.

[Elana55]

Originally Posted by js19

The thing is, with a GSD you're going to have to be consistent. Make the rules and stick to them. Your dog will be happier that way.

Oh and yelling won't help at all. I'm sure you get frustrated, but yelling makes it worse.

FWIW, these are the only statements that have a basis in dog training in the above post.

And also FWIW, you need to be consistant with ANY dog. BUT, you KNOW that because of the experience you have indicated you have.

[Cracker]

Originally Posted by js19

+1

I'm amazed how many posts it took to get here. It sounds like classic separation anxiety. I wouldn't be surprised if the dog thought he was the alpha in the pack.

The OP should ask himself:
who eats first?
who goes through doors first?
does he ever pull on the leash?
does he come and put himself on you/in your lap/on your furniture without permission from you first?

If yes to any of those questions, you need to establish your dominance. Once you've done that, you should practice leaving the dog like it's no big deal. There's tons of stuff you can read on this subject. The thing is, with a GSD you're going to have to be consistent. Make the rules and stick to them. Your dog will be happier that way. Oh and yelling won't help at all. I'm sure you get frustrated, but yelling makes it worse. We had a dog like this when I was a kid (actually a GSD/collie mix), and it never stopped barking. Unfortunately, my parents never too the time to understand dog behaviour, so the problem was never really fixed. We lived on 5 acres and we still got thousands in fines and neighbors that hated us over the years.

Thanks for the support JS..but I have to say..SA has NADA to do with dominance and that who eats first, goes through doors first etc also has nothing to do with dominance...there is also alot of information out there about WHY this line of thinking is incorrect. I'm glad you've had success with it, but being Calm Assertive is a lot more than where the dog is in relation to you physically and as much as it is a great way to interact with a dog (being calm and assertive, that is) it is NOT training, nor is it rehabilitation...it is a way of "being". Dogs don't give a hoot who goes first. As long as they get to go.

[FaithFurMom09]

and i wasnt trying to be mean towards you, I was asking because i care. Dogs, although some (maybe?) are meant to be inside, not outside.

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by GrittyDog

The ultrasonic post was the best one on the thread, unfortunately it also means the non-barking dogs get corrected when the big guy barks, so that's not an option.

It shouldn't harm the other dogs to hear the sound, it's not a painful sound it's more of a noise to get their attention and break their focus on their barking state of mind. Like a little tap on the shoulder every time it barks.

It might not even work if he's really really wanting to get inside to you, and not just barking to make himself feel better.

Originally Posted by Cracker

Thanks for the support JS..but I have to say..SA has NADA to do with dominance and that who eats first, goes through doors first etc also has nothing to do with dominance...there is also alot of information out there about WHY this line of thinking is incorrect. I'm glad you've had success with it, but being Calm Assertive is a lot more than where the dog is in relation to you physically and as much as it is a great way to interact with a dog (being calm and assertive, that is) it is NOT training, nor is it rehabilitation...it is a way of "being". Dogs don't give a hoot who goes first. As long as they get to go.

Yeah it sounds like it could be a mild case of SA, but maybe not. So many of these things you really can't see without being there.

I agree calm and assertive is a state of mind. A very good state of mind to maintain when interacting, but unless you are communicating with the dog in a way it understands what you want that state of mind does nada.

I teach my dogs they don't go out a door unless I say it's ok. In front of me, behind me, or even whether I go out with them at all is of no matter.

I'm aware of SA with every dog I get, I work on the assumption the dog will have some level of SA when I bring any dog home. I start desensitizing any dog day one, and until the dog shows no signs of it.

Better an ounce of prevention right off the bat than a chance on needing 50lbs of cure. IMO it might even be a good thing for all rescues to hand out a paper on doing just that, setting up from day one to prevent it.