[brecken]

I LOVE THAT SHOW and so does my dog she loves watching him, and he also has great ways to help train your dog....

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by Cracker

Greys, I guess my point was not clear. What I meant by relationship building is to get to the point where the dog WANTS to participate in the learning and training process and wants to take risks and make attempts at learning new skills.

Relationships as we all know between a dog and human can form in many ways but usually revolve around respect and trust or lack there of IMHO. There are so many process along the way in which we can either get a dog to work for us or with us and anything in between and sometimes it does not always mean that the dog has to like it or want to do it. Of course I would think that we all would choose to have a dog want to enjoy doing what we want,need, or like for them to do. I do not believe that in the many realities (the many different circumstances ) that is alway possible/probable at all times for every situation and there are times when it is beneficial to use approaches or methods that best fits our needs verses ones that are most enjoyable .



It is interesting the many perpectives to trust and respect verses do it for me because I say so verses because you want to verses do you enjoy it and find it rewarding verses do you not.

Some say you can gain trust with a cookie but not nec respect and others feel that you can both trust and a form of respect thru fear and then those who believe in all of the other combinations inbetween.

I think that often we tend to blur out the important line/distinction between shaping, motivating, and creating desired behaviors verses eliminating undesired ones. I think a big part of the confusion and misunderstanding in which operants one might attempt/choose to use is seldom clarified in many if not most of the debate/argument in conditioning/training dogs taking particular distinctions into account..to include resource factors that include time,knowledge,skillset,understanding, needs,wants,desires,philosophy,patience, and specific environment concerns ECT. There are just so many complicated things to consider when attempting to generalize approaches for solutions.

I certainly can understand and agree with the suggestion and for me the reality that it is far more beneficial, joyful, and EASY to condition/teach/train a dog to go over a jump, run through a tunnel, and go over a high walk, ect using primarily incentive best approaches. But... this is not(for me) to say that all training has to be exclusively incentive based and that a combination of the 4 quads cannot be used at some point for certain issues in a training session. Personnaly I refrain suggesting absolutes.

There are times depending on a wide range of circumstances that I do not want my dog to experiment, make other descisions, or take risks and thus I find it easier and better for me in gaining a high standard to a boundary behavior to use P+ at various points in the conditioning/training process.
Often the dog might have to experience a period of stress and quite probably not enjoy the moment in having to be forced to in essence (not to mix or sugar coat words) give somewhat reluctantly to a demand. For some/many this concept and way of thinking is considered somewhat unethical, uneducated, lazy, outdated, misinformed,stupid,ignorant, inhumane,can under all circumstances be done differently OR SHOULD BE, politically incorrect (ECT>ECT>ECT>), and boarding on being criminal to say the least.


On the other hand when I desire, need, want, or have no issue with behaviors that require being creative/experimental, free spirited, risky,non-boundary, ect.
I simple use primarily R+ or incentive based approaches.

The complicated reality to choices however that I have experienced is that all 4 quads can be utilized to gain success and resolution at almost any time in a total process.

For example when I train for agility I use bribes,lures,motivation,cues,clickers,target training,heavy praise,a number of rewards,ect..... and at certain times for certain behaviors I still can resort
to using some levels of *aversive* POSITIVE PUNISHMENT . For example if a dog continously jumps off of a walk after all other non aversive attempts have failed I simply apply a customized physical correction appropriate for the circumstance and the behavior is eliminated. When I am training a working dog for herding, SAR, service dog,ect I use lots of P+ at times because there are many circumstances in which I want the dog to understand certain boundaries to behavior quite clearly under intense distractions and external influences and have confidence in knowing that certain boundaries to behavior are highly unlikely to be broken. Another example is that if a dog over a period of times fails to maintain learned sit/stay I will use a aversive correction that always seems a solution for me that provides for a clearer understanding to maintaining that standard.

But then again there is the element of intelligent disobedience which must be taken into account. Thing is we could go back and forth all day on the what if's which is why things can be so complicated to discuss and expecially generalize as we seem to reflex to in such discussions which again I think causes all of the amiguity and counter arguments but most noticably the (often inapropriate) tagging/labeling, ctritisims, name callig, and character assination.







[/quote] Clicker training is FOR new skills and then the click/treat is faded...so for those of you who are not familiar it is NOT necessary to always have your clicker nor is it always necessary to have food rewards on hand unless you are in a training session or working on a specific behaviour. There are also different sorts of rewards used, it is not always food...it's just food, in the beginning is the simplest to deliver timing wise and the clearest for the dog to understand.[/quote]

There will always be the debate and agreement/disagreement on how to intially create or extinguish certain behaviors but often the dirty little secrets on how to maintain them is often never honestly discussed which I find to be missing in much many discussions. For example what are the possibilities of having to re-introduce the intitial training approach for behaviors that diminish or deteroriate outside of the desired standard/s? Do we not have to apply those "things" again in some form to maintain the behavior/s or get the behavior back on track?

So many what if's to consider when generalizing and understanding the many different circumstances possible.

[/quote] I also politely request that you try not to call rewards bribes. Used PROPERLY they are not bribes...the biggest mistake people make with any sort of reward training is not fading the lure after two or three reps and that is how the "my dog won't do unless I have a treat in hand" happens..this is the fault of the trainer/handler..not the method itself.
[/quote]


Same problems with P+ conditioning methods




[/quote]I also don't believe that there are many dogs out there that perform in training sessions without rewards of SOME KIND. Unless a good reinforcement history of some kind has been evident in training, creating a conditioned reinforcement response (where the dog starts to find the training Itself rewarding) is very difficult to do. [/quote]


Although there are in fact many training sessions performed daily (and quite successfully) across the world with what could be considered NO treats,lures.bribes,praise,+incentives, ect. It would be difficult to judge wether or not a dog finds a training session rewarding simply because it follows the program at the moment.????? How can we tell other than physical demeaner/body language. I have witnessed time and again dogs that have been taught to sit, heel, down, not pull against a leash, ect and in one or two sessions by all accounts seem to be happy,confident, and content to include tail wagging and licking the handler. I am not sure exactly what your point is about working for rewards/being rewarding?

[/quote]I'm not saying it can't be done, but if the handler wants results, the dog must find something about the work rewarding. There are some dogs who will gladly work simply for praise or attention but they are pretty dang rare.[/quote]

I would agree that it can be/might be considered rewarding to the dog to simply have a peaceful relationship that is simply based on a "good relationship"

[/quote]Chris..no worries..I hope the above paragraphs clear up the "having treats all the time issue". Remember as well that the tv shows do not show the whole story...treats are faded after behaviours are learned. We don't get the whole picture.[/quote]


This debate for me and ones like it is sort of like saying those that use P+ always do and never do anything else. I know for a fact that Ceaser has used and suggests in cases incentive based conditioning that included treats,rewards,lures,bribes,target training,toys,lots of effection ect. and for some reason many seem to overlook this fact as they judge him and his variable approaches.

The interesting and uniqe thing about dogs in my experience is that generally they want to please the human in a relationship and sometimes a dog can just find that rewarding regardless of the things that go on in a relationship. Which is sometime a joyful thought and in some cases a somber thought in reality.

[Cracker]

I think you can see from my posts that I do not argue P+ as ineffective, nor do I participate in character assassination..I do my best to explain the risks/pitfalls of any and all quadrants when the issue comes up.

Yes, I've also seen dogs that with use of the P+ seem happy to obey their commands/handler. But also being very familiar with behaviour it is important to point out that a wagging tail or a hand lick does not necessarily indicate happiness, a lot depends on the particular dog and on any other signals given. The hand lick COULD be an appeasement behaviour and the tail wag could be one of many things as well. I don't think that the PROPER application of P+ is wrong and in emergencies or any situation where safety of the dog or anyone else is in question you do what you have to do in that moment to mitigate the circumstance. I simply choose not to use it for many reasons, the most important being that the majority of the dogs I work with are fearful and the risks are too high.

When I speak of a dog that wants to work and is willing to take risks I speak of a dog that does not fear punishment in TRAINING and so is willing to try to new things, not one who suddenly decides to go off and do something inappropriate while you are out and about on your walks. Training is meant to be transferred into real life, but the actual training does not START there, it starts in low distraction, low pressure situations and is gradually proofed for higher distractions etc.

As for training with punishment exclusively...I don't believe anyone (or at least a very small number) use P+ all the time, the same way I don't believe people who ONLY use R+ exist in a large number. Effective use of the quads almost always includes at least two of the four. My preference is not to use R- nor P+. I make liberal use of R+ and of P- but am not totally averse to using an occasional aversive if absolutely necessary (squirt bottle, verbal reprimand).

When it comes to conditioned reinforcers..some dogs find R- and P+ to be a conditioned reinforcer...phew I didn't get in trouble, that makes me happy sort of thing. But in my mind (IMHO) working to avoid punishment is not what I want my dog and the dogs I work with to do. I want them to work to GAIN something. Same way I don't work to avoid bad things, I work to gain good things. This is important to me from a philosophical point of view and so it is in my life.

I guess I'm a glass half full kind of girl..and I work hard to maintain that. It ain't all wine and roses, but when it's not, that half a glass helps me through.

[Marsh Muppet]

Originally Posted by sparkle

But then again there is the element of intelligent disobedience which must be taken into account.

I think too many people give the concept a short shrift.

[sparkle]

Cracker;661208]I think you can see from my posts that I do not argue P+ as ineffective, nor do I participate in character assassination..I do my best to explain the risks/pitfalls of any and all quadrants when the issue comes up. .[/quote]


I do apologize if you thought I was referring to you in terms of the character assination issue that was not a reference to you. I do appreciate and find it valuable that a person chooses/strives to expalin ALL the pitfalls associated with any approach although I am sure many people find that rarely the norm in a sence . I feel like I am that way also. Although we are alike in that way it seems we (anyone/people) are so different in our beliefs and experiences, and approaches.


[/quote]
Yes, I've also seen dogs that with use of the P+ seem happy to obey their commands/handler. But also being very familiar with behaviour it is important to point out that a wagging tail or a hand lick does not necessarily indicate happiness, a lot depends on the particular dog and on any other signals given. The hand lick COULD be an appeasement behaviour and the tail wag could be one of many things as well.
.[/quote]

Again it is all about the semantics in the details as to what one derives from what they observe at any given moment or in the total picture of a relationship. I have used and do use P+ with all of my dogs and they are exhuberently happy and have been commended many times over on maintaining so many such often exhubernetly happy dogs?

However they are not ALWAYS "happy" ..especially when/at the moment of recieving a correction.



.[/quote]
I don't think that the PROPER application of P+ is wrong and in emergencies or any situation where safety of the dog or anyone else is in question you do what you have to do in that moment to mitigate the circumstance. I simply choose not to use it for many reasons, the most important being that the majority of the dogs I work with are fearful and the risks are too high. .[/quote]


For me allowing for P+ in emergencies and for issues that concern dog or human safety covers a huge spectrum of everyday situations. You used a modifier that confuses me
..which is ..."you do what you have to do in that moment to mitigate the circumstance"

So I take it that you mean you only feel it appropriate to use P+ exclusively as a reactive response under such condtions and not for/within a training program? May I ask if this P+ acts as a true correction to condition/teach the/a dog not to behave in a particular manner again? Or used simply as a punisher that could result in continual administration under such condtions time and again? To be more clear... not to act as a true correction?

To illustrate our different opinions I too/also work with fearful dogs across a wide range of disciplines to include training dogs to work (safely and appropriately) around dangerous livestock,rescue work, rehab of extreme cases, training of dogs around very dangerous situations in various extrme environments, and any other phobes and fears that all dogs/any dog can experience. Thing is I use P+ succesfully in many of the cases along with incentive based approaches. I also do not teach dogs not to have fear but hopefully how to control some of the more critical behavior aspects presented by that fear which can and often does incorporate the usage of P+. To which I have documented over the years for constant review/study and referal in my never ending research in understanding what may work to resolve any particular issue.






.[/quote]
When I speak of a dog that wants to work and is willing to take risks I speak of a dog that does not fear punishment in TRAINING and so is willing to try to new things, not one who suddenly decides to go off and do something inappropriate while you are out and about on your walks. Training is meant to be transferred into real life, but the actual training does not START there, it starts in low distraction, low pressure situations and is gradually proofed for higher distractions etc. .[/quote]


A difference we have is that I find value in fearing punishment especially when other approaches are not working according to specific circumstances. For me it is a realistic part of understanding and utilizing nature. I too start conditioning at the lowest distraction level possible so as to be as clear and communicative as possible in teaching the desired or undesired behavior/s. I then add increasingly intense often xxxxx extreme distrations/influences that are needed in dealing with real life and often times things that most dogs might not need to deal with in real life.. I do extreme proofing also as for me that is the measure of a standard.

I probably again should point out that I use a mixture of quads but for the purpose of my point is that I do use P+ in these circumstances at some point in the process.


.[/quote]
As for training with punishment exclusively...I don't believe anyone (or at least a very small number) use P+ all the time, the same way I don't believe people who ONLY use R+ exist in a large number. Effective use of the quads almost always includes at least two of the four. My preference is not to use R- nor P+. I make liberal use of R+ and of P- but am not totally averse to using an occasional aversive if absolutely necessary (squirt bottle, verbal reprimand).

When it comes to conditioned reinforcers..some dogs find R- and P+ to be a conditioned reinforcer...phew I didn't get in trouble, that makes me happy sort of thing. But in my mind (IMHO) working to avoid punishment is not what I want my dog and the dogs I work with to do. I want them to work to GAIN something. Same way I don't work to avoid bad things, I work to gain good things. This is important to me from a philosophical point of view and so it is in my life.

I guess I'm a glass half full kind of girl..and I work hard to maintain that. It ain't all wine and roses, but when it's not, that half a glass helps me through.[/quote]

We then are the same in some ways and different in others... I like using that boring word *DEPENDS*.

For me and what I do I with the many dogs/people that I deal with yearly is that I have learned that what I WANT,NEED, or DESIRE and how to achieve it.... often just...DEPENDS..


revised
I also like that recent new age addage that maybe we should just agree to disagree and that does not mean that we cannot sit down somewhere and have a beer, wine, or a stiffer drink.. Just depends on what would work for me/us at the moment I guess. In terms of training methods and approaches I like to think of myself as a DEPENDS on whats in the glass and how much for my current situation kind of girl LOL!

IS that how it goes?

Have a good one

[Cracker]

For me allowing for P+ in emergencies and for issues that concern dog or human safety covers a huge spectrum of everyday situations. You used a modifier that confuses me
..which is ..."you do what you have to do in that moment to mitigate the circumstance"

So I take it that you mean you only feel it appropriate to use P+ exclusively as a reactive response under such condtions and not for/within a training program? May I ask if this P+ acts as a true correction to condition/teach the/a dog not to behave in a particular manner again? Or used simply as a punisher that could result in continual administration under such condtions time and again? To be more clear... not to act as a true correction?

Yes. It is management I mean, more so than punishment for the sake of learning a behaviour or consequence. For example: Say I am walking a leash reactive dog and get suprised by a large off leash dog around a corner and the dog I am walking goes ballistic, he is over threshold and dangerously so and I need to both keep him away from the other dog AND prevent him from transferring his aggression to me. In this case I MAY have to physically restrain him, move him behind me with force etc. In an ideal world this dog would be worked with under threshold for him to learn better coping skills etc but in full fear/reactive mode simply punishing his behaviour is not a learning moment. He is fully in rear brain mode, kill or be killed, not consciously making a decision to misbehave. Working under threshold is a learning moment...over threshold is not. I will do whatever is necessary in that moment to keep injury to a minimum for all three participants. Things happen in life that we cannot always anticipate, but by working with the dog under threshold as much as possible and gradually decreasing that threshold distance, eventually that "thing" won't need to be such a large incident and physical management should no longer be necessary.

To illustrate our different opinions I too/also work with fearful dogs across a wide range of disciplines to include training dogs to work (safely and appropriately) around dangerous livestock,rescue work, rehab of extreme cases, training of dogs around very dangerous situations in various extrme environments, and any other phobes and fears that all dogs/any dog can experience. Thing is I use P+ succesfully in many of the cases along with incentive based approaches. I also do not teach dogs not to have fear but hopefully how to control some of the more critical behavior aspects presented by that fear which can and often does incorporate the usage of P+. To which I have documented over the years for constant review/study and referal in my never ending research in understanding what may work to resolve any particular issue.

I wholly agree with using P+ in a life threatening situation..say rattlesnake training or using a rake/shepherd's crook in teaching herding. But I do not use if for everyday training, it is simply my choice to work on the proofing without it. As for the bolded part of the above quote, I think that working to reduce the fear to a level where the dog is able to learn through CC, R+ and teaching better responses once you've reached an OC level through R+ as well is a less stressful (for all parties) way to deal with it. But again, that is my choice, if you have success then that is what counts in the end...I guess my idea is that I don't want the OWNERS to be using punishment because it is so easy for THEM to mess it up. If I don't want the owners using it, I should be leading by example.

We then are the same in some ways and different in others... I like using that boring word *DEPENDS*.

For me and what I do I with the many dogs/people that I deal with yearly is that I have learned that what I WANT,NEED, or DESIRE and how to achieve it.... often just...DEPENDS..


revised
I also like that recent new age addage that maybe we should just agree to disagree and that does not mean that we cannot sit down somewhere and have a beer, wine, or a stiffer drink.. Just depends on what would work for me/us at the moment I guess. In terms of training methods and approaches I like to think of myself as a DEPENDS on whats in the glass and how much for my current situation kind of girl LOL!

IS that how it goes?

Have a good one[/quote]

Sounds good to me.
*raises a glass*

Here's to good debate.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by Cracker

Yes. It is management

But again, that is my choice, if you have success then that is what counts in the end...I guess my idea is that I don't want the OWNERS to be using punishment because it is so easy for THEM to mess it up. If I don't want the owners using it, I should be leading by example.


Have a good one[/quote]

Sounds good to me.
*raises a glass*

Here's to good debate.[/quote]

I understand and thank you for the explaination.

CHEERS TO YOU

[jiml]

sparkle, that last post was too short edit it LOL

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by jiml

sparkle, that last post was too short edit it LOL

I understand

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by sparkle

Cesar/Victoria may be good at some things but I would suggest/put my money on asking a/some experienced sheep/herding/stock dog trainers on how to get top notch off leash behaviors and control on sheep herding breeds. They do it in no time and under all of the drive/distraction issues

Yes I would love to have my dog herding trained. I don't know if I could manage a weekly trip out to do it though for the months it would take, and keep up with it for her lifetime.

I'm beginning to think my dog would be happiest and most fulfilled as a working stock dog on a ranch. She would absolutely live for it I think.

I think I have found a solution that may work for me though. I had her out this morning and the squirrels were everywhere.

There were two that were just ignoring her about 30 feet away, going about their acorn burying. I had her sit, took a few leash jangles, than I got her to down, with repeated small pokes on the shoulder.

Seems a repeated very light poke, about one every second, keeps a little part of her brain open for listening, and she ever so slowly will lay down never breaking focus on the squirrels.

Then I tried some chicken, no dice, so I just kneeled down beside her, and sat there. And waited, and waited, and waited, and after some time had passed, her excitement level started falling off enough I could get her to take a piece of chicken. Then 3-4 more minutes I got her to look away from them for a piece of it.

Then after she actually got her senses back a little I gave her my "lets go" which is her command to "come off" whatever she is distracted by and move on, and she did!

So now I think I'll be looking for these very high drive moments, get her in a down which is a very hard self control exercise for her and repeating having her down and just watch however long it takes until her level comes down while she's maintaining self control. The time required is tough because I do have to get to work in the morning at some point.

This will be my Saturday mornings for the foreseeable future though. I may actually be able to desensitize her over time this way.

Then maybe move on to more advanced techniques and premack etc.

I tried that once, and though she did understand that she looked at me and asked to go chase, actually letting her go when she looked back for my ok turned out to be a disaster. Set me back 6 months.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by TxRider

Yes I would love to have my dog herding trained. I don't know if I could manage a weekly trip out to do it though for the months it would take, and keep up with it for her lifetime.

.

I was referring to the ability/skills for those (the good ones) types of trainers to teach/train/condition the dog NOT to go after/chase that which they seek to engage. This issue of chasing must be taken care of before the real herding training can start to get off the ground. When myself and others train a herding dog this is done in the first session or two ( actually in most cases before ever introducing the dog to livestock in a less distracted/more controlled environment)..... so my reference/point would not require but a training session or 2 to address your specific issue in most cases and actually no further lessons needed. But then again who needs herding lessons to solve this problem when thier are other distractions to use for proofing in any given method.

It sounds like you are on the road to progress...good luck!

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by sparkle

I was referring to the ability/skills for those (the good ones) types of trainers to teach/train/condition the dog NOT to go after/chase that which they seek to engage. This issue of chasing must be taken care of before the real herding training can start to get off the ground. When myself and others train a herding dog this is done in the first session or two ( actually in most cases before ever introducing the dog to livestock in a less distracted/more controlled environment)..... so my reference/point would not require but a training session or 2 to address your specific issue in most cases and actually no further lessons needed. But then again who needs herding lessons to solve this problem when thier are other distractions to use for proofing in any given method.

It sounds like you are on the road to progress...good luck!

I know what you were referring to, I didn't think that permanent results could be had in a session or two though.

Not ever having seen a herding trainer work first hand I have no idea how they do it. Unfortunately I have no control over the object of focus, if I did it might be a lot easier.

I've been trying to work up to a down under drive, as I have been led to understand that a good stop/down and recall is expected for a herding instinct trial. There are a couple of places within an hour that offer it, but it seems like there's more people trying to get their dogs trained then available trainers.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by TxRider

I know what you were referring to, I didn't think that permanent results could be had in a session or two though.

Not ever having seen a herding trainer work first hand I have no idea how they do it. Unfortunately I have no control over the object of focus, if I did it might be a lot easier.

I've been trying to work up to a down under drive, as I have been led to understand that a good stop/down and recall is expected for a herding instinct trial. There are a couple of places within an hour that offer it, but it seems like there's more people trying to get their dogs trained then available trainers.

Well then you are missing out on a lot of resolution possibilities.
We/others do ( who use such methods/tools) this type of conditioning everyday .

However and I do not mean to preach to the choir... NOTHING in life is permanent except death in such terms from what I know of or have been told/experienced and behavior does require maintenance which is a important factor that is highly misunderstood and miscommunicated by a far too great number of people in dealing with dogs IMHO.

Another important thing to consider is that not all *herding instructors* have the same skills so please do not just pick/reference just any herding instructor (kinda is same for about everything else too) which is why I was thoughtful in the use of the modifier that I included in that statement.

Actually the one day work shops and training sessions I have experienced just use what ever is available and lots of different distractions/enticements to resolve the prey drive/chasing issue and it is not nec to seek the skills of a "GOOD" herding instructor.

Fundamently for me it is simply a matter (using a host of processes available that gets results hopefully quickly) to teach/train/condition a dog to learn a high standard/respect to a *LEAVE IT * command on leash/tight control which can further develop the dogs general understanding about the rules in chasing/engaging such things while off leash which of course requires a few more skillsets (recall or not) in the conditioning/proofing process for a high standard.

Again so to cover the extremes each issue and how to resolve it just DEPENDS on ones specific situation and circumstances.

On the assumption of a herding REQUIRING or having been taught a down ...that is a very politically charged hot potatoe in the herding world. Many non Border Collie herding folks with breeds that do not do well with this position disagree and a stand/stop is the only way to go...along with the arguements that a herding dog should never or rarely work from a downed position for a host of reasons to which depending the issue differnet people agree with and disagree with ..Anyways a different political topic of perspective for the herding folks.

Herding dog trainers can be hard to find locally but depending on how far one can travel many trainers (the good ones also) seem to have quite a bit of openings for what ever reasons which can also/often be a matter of the methods/tools/ and perspectives they have. Again sounds just like finding/dealing with the other kinds of trainers.

I hate being a DEPENDS kinda girl. very stressful.

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by sparkle

Well then you are missing out on a lot of resolution possibilities.
We/others do ( who use such methods/tools) this type of conditioning everyday. NOTHING in life is permanent except death from what I know or have been told. Another important thing to consider is that not all *herding instructors* have the same skills so please do not just pick/reference just any herding instructor (kinda is same for about everything else too) which is why I was thoughtful in the use of the modifier that I included in that statement.

Actually the one day work shops and training sessions I have experienced just use what ever is available and lots of different ones to resolve the prey drive/chasing issue and it is not nec to seek the skills of a "GOOD" herding instructor.

Fundamently for me it is simply a matter (using a host of processes available that gets results hopefully quickly) to teach/train/condition a dog to learn a high standard/respect to a *LEAVE IT * command on leash/tight control which can further develop the dogs general understanding about the rules in chasing/engaging such things on leash and off leash which of course requires a few more skillsets in the conditioning/proofing process for a high standard.

Again so to cover the extremes each issue and how to resolve it just DEPENDS on ones specific situation and circumstances.

She seems to have a modicum of respect for the leash anyway, I can even drop the leash which usually gets her to turn to look at me with a "really? I can go chase them?" look. When I tried it I actually had to give her release word 2-3 times before she bolted after them the first time. The result was her drive went through the roof after that though, and she wanted the chase again on every one she saw.

She won't lunge and really pull on the leash unless one runs within ten feet of her now. But she's in la-la land whenever one is in sight at any range as far as asking her to do anything. She's a pretty soft dog as far as correction goes when she's not buried in prey drive.

She does a standing stop or slow much better than a down or sit. She knows what stop means, she just has a hard time with self control doing it.

I'm thinking a herding trainer could use her stop command, especially if a crook or something was enforcing it.

I was thinking that A) herding training might get her better at learning self control and listening to instruction, as well as training new instructions and b) Part of me really would like to see if she could be a good working dog, but I don't know if I could find time/resources to take it that far or keep at it throughout her life. Though I may be in a position to have some stock in a few years.

This is the place i was thinking about calling...

http://www.glenrosefarms.com/

I was thinking of making some vids of her behavior, to better show it, but I really would need to buy a minicam for that.

[sparkle]

Originally Posted by TxRider

She seems to have a modicum of respect for the leash anyway, I can even drop the leash which usually gets her to turn to look at me with a "really? I can go chase them?" look. When I tried it I actually had to give her release word 2-3 times before she bolted after them the first time. The result was her drive went through the roof after that though, and she wanted the chase again on every one she saw.

She won't lunge and really pull on the leash unless one runs within ten feet of her now. But she's in la-la land whenever one is in sight at any range as far as asking her to do anything. She's a pretty soft dog as far as correction goes when she's not buried in prey drive.

She does a standing stop or slow much better than a down or sit. She knows what stop means, she just has a hard time with self control doing it.

I'm thinking a herding trainer could use her stop command, especially if a crook or something was enforcing it.

I was thinking that A) herding training might get her better at learning self control and listening to instruction, as well as training new instructions and b) Part of me really would like to see if she could be a good working dog, but I don't know if I could find time/resources to take it that far or keep at it throughout her life. Though I may be in a position to have some stock in a few years.

This is the place i was thinking about calling...

http://www.glenrosefarms.com/

I was thinking of making some vids of her behavior, to better show it, but I really would need to buy a minicam for that.

Actually I have met Laura seveal times and she would be one of those "good" actually GREAT trainers I was referring to.

Without doing the quote/edit things honestly I sence a lot of what IMHO are contridictions in your statements when stepping back and taking a general look at them when/in referencing consistancy to a standard. I also think my point about seeking a "GOOD" herding dog trainer seems to have taken a wrong turn also.

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by sparkle

Without doing the quote/edit things honestly I sence a lot of what IMHO are contridictions in your statements when stepping back and taking a general look at them when/in referencing consistancy to a standard. I also think my point about seeking a "GOOD" herding dog trainer seems to have taken a wrong turn also.

Not surprising, I'm probably not being very clear at all.

And I would have no clue how to find a good herding dog trainer, or know one if I saw one.

I'm struggling to know what standards actually are in reference to herding, what is expected of me and my dog before I try to have her instinct tested, or even if I should do it at all or what I could gain from it. I'm pretty confused on the whole thing and seeking information/opinion from people with experience.