[pittsabowawa]

I think its something about british people on american television.. we expect them to act like simon cowell

Im a big proponent of sometimes people need a good "what for" and Victoria delivers LOL
I seriously doubt she is that intense in real life

[Nargle]

Originally Posted by pittsabowawa

I think its something about british people on american television.. we expect them to act like simon cowell

Im a big proponent of sometimes people need a good "what for" and Victoria delivers LOL
I seriously doubt she is that intense in real life

It really makes me want to see the rest of that episode to see what made her react like that!!

[Marsh Muppet]

It's television. There is every reason to suspect the "fight" was scripted. I'm not saying it was, but a bazillion YouTube hits is motivation enough to stage such an event.

[lovemygreys]

I like him. A lot of what he says lines up with what I already did or believed to be true about dog behavior, before I ever knew who he was. His primary message of: Exercise, Discipline, Affection and Rules, Boundaries and Limitations are very good ones.

I think a lot of people misunderstand what he's doing when he elicits or places a dog in a submissive position. Not something that needs to be done often, but it does have it's time and place depending on what behavior you are working with and how extreme the case is.

Mostly, I think his message is all about energy. You can't lie to a dog. I also think it's the hardest thing for owners to learn - the proper energy to use when handling a dog or dealing with a behavior. Too often we get angry, upset, tense, frustrated or scared, which is exactly the wrong thing to do. I know it's something I struggle with myself from time to time. Perhaps that's why other methods, that may take MUCH longer, are more popular with a lot of trainers...they can focus more on an act (click NOW, treat NOW) rather than intangible things like energy and relationship based training.

And I've had the pleasure of meeting him:


I'd love for him to spend some time with our pack and just talk dog.

I can't stand Victoria Stillwell, though the dog Stains was perhaps the funniest thing ever! She falls into the different trainer for different folks category.

[TxRider]

I lie to my dogs all the time...

I can convince them what I am eating or playing with or doing is the best thing on earth pretty easily sometimes.

[lovemygreys]

Originally Posted by TxRider

I lie to my dogs all the time...

I can convince them what I am eating or playing with or doing is the best thing on earth pretty easily sometimes.

You can't lie to them about your energy/mood/feelings. They can sense our emotions sometimes better than we can, I think.

[canteloupe]

Originally Posted by TxRider

And who could ever forget Stains...

Oh yes, he was hilarious!

I love Stilwell. She's a great trainer, and her mannerisms don't bother me.

I'm still waiting for them to make the DVD's available in US format... errr. Or for hulu to pick it up.

[Cracker]

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

You can't lie to them about your energy/mood/feelings. They can sense our emotions sometimes better than we can, I think.

I agree. My dogs I work/walk with all reflect my mood if I'm stressed or not feeling well...I've had to learn to use them as my "biofeedback" machine to tell me when I need to take a deep breath. I totally get the 'energy' thing, I'm a reiki practitioner so yes, I believe they can sense our changes in energy, mood and health before we can.

But comparing clicker training (the science/skill) and using energy is apples and oranges. Energy is ALL THE TIME what you need to convey, not just when training and Greys, clicker training IS all about relationship building and teamwork.

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by canteloupe

Oh yes, he was hilarious!

I love Stilwell. She's a great trainer, and her mannerisms don't bother me.

I'm still waiting for them to make the DVD's available in US format... errr. Or for hulu to pick it up.

Yeah the poor dog, self control is not easy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rntMjDdFLZA

[Hallie]

Stains was hilarious! Poor dog, he had it rough.
I'm in category 4 as far as Cesar goes. I used his methods on Peanut when he was unruly and they work. I think different dogs need different approaches, Stilwell would have a rough time training Peanut. Hallie would do great with her methods and bad with Cesar's and Peanut would be the exact opposite. I don't agree with the overall dominance theory but whether his training methods are based on that or not, they do work. I do leash corrections but I'd never hold either one of my dogs down on their back.

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by Hallie

I do leash corrections but I'd never hold either one of my dogs down on their back.

I might, if the situation seemed right.

Milan seems to often use holding a dog in a submissive posture for a different reason than many perceive I think.

Many instances he seems to be doing it to have a dog who won't let down it's guard stay there until it drops it's guard, relaxes, and gets to experience a state of mind without the anxiety, fear and lack of trust it constantly lives in.

That the dog gets to experience that it feels good to let go, and be trusting and able to relax in a vulnerable position, that nothing bad will happen if it just trusts and relaxes. Milan calls it "surrender" which is really not the best terminology, but semi appropriate.

It also does not always work, as has been apparent with a few dogs on his show, and it can get you bitten as well.

It's not always as simple as "I'm bigger and I will dominate you by force because I can." It's to push the dog to the point it gives up it's guard and the stress that goes with always being untrustful and on guard..

I could see doing that for that reason in some situations, I didn't with mine, but then I have unlimited time to patiently work at it, he often does not.

I have only done similar to my two dogs once so far though, when they decided to fight it out in my living room, two days after I brought Kaya home.

First time I ever saw Hope lift a lip in anger in the better part of a year I have owned her.

They wouldn't stop when I told them to so I just grabbed both collars and yanked them both to the floor, face to face, a foot apart, before blood was spilled and waited until they calmed down, which was pretty much instantly. Extreme measures for extreme circumstances, and they haven't fought since.

And a new expectation, all fights are won by me. That was a case of I'm bigger and I will dominate because I can, the only other course I had was to let them maybe hurt each other.

[Thracian]

I guess I fit most into the third category. I am bothered, though, by the foot nudging he's done to the dog that I've seen in three stories. And I've watched less than 10 so far.

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by Thracian

I guess I fit most into the third category. I am bothered, though, by the foot nudging he's done to the dog that I've seen in three stories. And I've watched less than 10 so far.

I'm not, as long as it's used like a tap on the shoulder to get their attention or break focus on something. I have to do it to mine when she's in the obsessive focused state and deaf to the world on a cat or squirrel just to get her attention to look at me for a high value treat or to get her to move on and forget the small furry thing.

She won't break her focus for two blocks if I don't. But she's getting better.

It used to be I could and did literally push a piece of grilled chicken in her mouth and she would spit it out she was so obsessed.

[Nargle]

Originally Posted by TxRider

I might, if the situation seemed right.

Milan seems to often use holding a dog in a submissive posture for a different reason than many perceive I think.

Many instances he seems to be doing it to have a dog who won't let down it's guard stay there until it drops it's guard, relaxes, and gets to experience a state of mind without the anxiety, fear and lack of trust it constantly lives in.

That the dog gets to experience that it feels good to let go, and be trusting and able to relax in a vulnerable position, that nothing bad will happen if it just trusts and relaxes. Milan calls it "surrender" which is really not the best terminology, but semi appropriate.

It also does not always work, as has been apparent with a few dogs on his show, and it can get you bitten as well.

It's not always as simple as "I'm bigger and I will dominate you by force because I can." It's to push the dog to the point it gives up it's guard and the stress that goes with always being untrustful and on guard..

I could see doing that for that reason in some situations, I didn't with mine, but then I have unlimited time to patiently work at it, he often does not.

I have only done similar to my two dogs once so far though, when they decided to fight it out in my living room, two days after I brought Kaya home.

First time I ever saw Hope lift a lip in anger in the better part of a year I have owned her.

They wouldn't stop when I told them to so I just grabbed both collars and yanked them both to the floor, face to face, a foot apart, before blood was spilled and waited until they calmed down, which was pretty much instantly. Extreme measures for extreme circumstances, and they haven't fought since.

And a new expectation, all fights are won by me. That was a case of I'm bigger and I will dominate because I can, the only other course I had was to let them maybe hurt each other.

I'm sorry, but if I was feeling anxious, and someone forced me to become even MORE vulnerable in that state, I wouldn't exactly calm down and give up. That's like saying a good way to cure stage fright is to shove someone on a stage butt naked!

There's a BIG difference between learning to accept a situation, and being forced to give up.

Originally Posted by TxRider

I'm not, as long as it's used like a tap on the shoulder to get their attention or break focus on something. I have to do it to mine when she's in the obsessive focused state and deaf to the world on a cat or squirrel just to get her attention to look at me for a high value treat or to get her to move on and forget the small furry thing.

She won't break her focus for two blocks if I don't. But she's getting better.

It used to be I could and did literally push a piece of grilled chicken in her mouth and she would spit it out she was so obsessed.

Basil used to fixate on squirrels, cats, and other dogs. I tried the chicken-shoving method, and the tapping method. You know what worked? Understanding his tolerance levels, knowing how far away we can stand from a stimulus without having him react, and training him to focus on me. Once your dog loses it and becomes 100% fixated, you're WAY too close to the stimulus, and you're never going to get anywhere training-wise unless you back up and have your dog focus on you at a reasonable distance.

[JonD7]

I think Cesar is awesome, I've learned a lot by watching his show, don't think I've ever missed an episode.

I don't like Victoria's training methods at all though... using treats = lame.

[Hallie]

Hallie had an 'episode' when she got back from the vet after she got hit by a car. At that time I did have to resort to holding her down because with 3 pelvis fractures less than a day old trying to walk isn't the best Idea. After I held her down for 5 minutes she gave up and actually did calm down. That's the only time I've held one of my pups down.

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by Nargle

I'm sorry, but if I was feeling anxious, and someone forced me to become even MORE vulnerable in that state, I wouldn't exactly calm down and give up. That's like saying a good way to cure stage fright is to shove someone on a stage butt naked!

There's a BIG difference between learning to accept a situation, and being forced to give up.

You won't cure stage fright without walking out on stage. Just like so many phobias are helped by exposure to the phobia to desensitize. Dunno where the butt naked part comes from.

Basil used to fixate on squirrels, cats, and other dogs. I tried the chicken-shoving method, and the tapping method. You know what worked? Understanding his tolerance levels, knowing how far away we can stand from a stimulus without having him react, and training him to focus on me. Once your dog loses it and becomes 100% fixated, you're WAY too close to the stimulus, and you're never going to get anywhere training-wise unless you back up and have your dog focus on you at a reasonable distance.

Easily said, provided there actually is a distance at which she won't react.

If she sees it she reacts, it can be blocks away distance matters little.

She even reacts to little piles of leaves from a block away, anything that might even remotely resemble a squirrel and obsesses on it. And remembers the spot she saw one at for days if not weeks and anticipates it from blocks away.

It's like it's her life, what she lives for.

The instant she walks out the door for a walk she goes to full focus on spotting one. She's reacting basically full time, and going into overdrive level 9 when she actually sees one. It's not so much reaction as it obsessive disorder level.

I'm seriously considering ending her walks altogether, but I have little other means to exercise her twice a day. Though I have brought her fetch drive from zero to enough I could get her worked out with it.

Progress is slow, with many setbacks. But it is there. I can get her to stop on command and sit, even if her eyes never leave the squirrel, or the scan for a squirrel, and I can get her to look at me if I use her recall and have some chicken, but then it's right back to the squirrel hunt.

It's like the extreme focus a working herding border collie has in full drive, almost exactly. Same focus, same look in the eye, it's like it's her job.

The pic in my avatar is her looking out the front window, at a couple of leaves, waiting for them to maybe move and be a squirrel. If her ears weren't ruined they would be at full point and facing straight forward.

I'm not convinced she even wants to catch them rather than just chase them or herd them. She had one in the front yard treed, she let it come all the way down the tree to below my knee level, with her 4 feet away, and just stood there with head low with that border collie stare, and didn't move till it hit the ground and ran for a better tree.

[Nargle]

Originally Posted by TxRider

You won't cure stage fright without walking out on stage. Just like so many phobias are helped by exposure to the phobia to desensitize. Dunno where the butt naked part comes from.

I agree you need to face your fears if you ever want to get over them, but it makes no sense to me to force a dog into a very vulnerable position when they're under a lot of stress already. It makes much more sense to create a positive association with whatever is stressing them. For instance, if a dog displays fear aggression towards men, it makes a LOT of sense to make men seem APPEALING, by doing something like tossing treats from 20 ft away. If you slammed the dog onto the ground every time a man came near, it makes sense that that would INCREASE the anxiety and the fear aggression. Build up the dog's confidence and trust, don't force it into giving up. Forcing them to give up is just creating a learned helplessness, and doesn't address the anxiety at all. The same thing applies to most dogs who display dog aggression, because the vast majority of dog aggression cases stem from a lack of confidence and a surplus of insecurity caused by lack of socialization.

The "butt naked" comment was referring to the fact that laying on your back with your belly exposed is an EXTREMELY vulnerable position for a dog to be in. Dogs only offer this position if they absolutely trust you, and in the wild, the only time a wolf will force another wolf into this position is if it's a wolf from a rival pack and is going for a kill.

Originally Posted by TxRider

Easily said, provided there actually is a distance at which she won't react.

If she sees it she reacts, it can be blocks away distance matters little.

She even reacts to little piles of leaves from a block away, anything that might even remotely resemble a squirrel and obsesses on it. And remembers the spot she saw one at for days if not weeks and anticipates it from blocks away.

It's like it's her life, what she lives for.

The instant she walks out the door for a walk she goes to full focus on spotting one. She's reacting basically full time, and going into overdrive level 9 when she actually sees one. It's not so much reaction as it obsessive disorder level.

I'm seriously considering ending her walks altogether, but I have little other means to exercise her twice a day. Though I have brought her fetch drive from zero to enough I could get her worked out with it.

Progress is slow, with many setbacks. But it is there. I can get her to stop on command and sit, even if her eyes never leave the squirrel, or the scan for a squirrel, and I can get her to look at me if I use her recall and have some chicken, but then it's right back to the squirrel hunt.

It's like the extreme focus a working herding border collie has in full drive, almost exactly. Same focus, same look in the eye, it's like it's her job.

The pic in my avatar is her looking out the front window, at a couple of leaves, waiting for them to maybe move and be a squirrel. If her ears weren't ruined they would be at full point and facing straight forward.

I'm not convinced she even wants to catch them rather than just chase them or herd them. She had one in the front yard treed, she let it come all the way down the tree to below my knee level, with her 4 feet away, and just stood there with head low with that border collie stare, and didn't move till it hit the ground and ran for a better tree.

I don't know your dog, but after dealing with a medium-leash-reactive Basil, and an extremely DA and HA Australian Shepherd (my boyfriend's sister's dog) I've experience that when a dog is fixating on something, tapping them with your foot and shoving a treat in their face will generally have the same reaction: "Outta the way, there's a squirrel over there!" Most dogs will typically just completely blow you off. I can't fathom why a tap on the shoulder would be any more convincing than a tasty piece of grilled chicken, anyways.

[TxRider]

Originally Posted by Nargle

The "butt naked" comment was referring to the fact that laying on your back with your belly exposed is an EXTREMELY vulnerable position for a dog to be in. Dogs only offer this position if they absolutely trust you, and in the wild, the only time a wolf will force another wolf into this position is if it's a wolf from a rival pack and is going for a kill.

Dogs also offer it if they are very submissive, trust or not, sometimes urinating as well, or if they are in fear.

Wolves absolutely roll/pin pups regularly. Just as mother and other adult dogs do with pups. And science says dogs are very much like immature wolves. Stuck in a state of perpetual immaturity via our domestication and breeding for social acceptability to humans. Permanent pups to some degree.

Dogs roll/pin others in play all the time.

I don't know your dog, but after dealing with a medium-leash-reactive Basil, and an extremely DA and HA Australian Shepherd (my boyfriend's sister's dog) I've experience that when a dog is fixating on something, tapping them with your foot and shoving a treat in their face will generally have the same reaction: "Outta the way, there's a squirrel over there!"

Exactly, but it's a decent test to see just how locked into focus they are, just as it's a good test of a dogs stress/fear whether they will accept food or not. I try it and check her at different distances and situations now and then.

Most dogs will typically just completely blow you off. I can't fathom why a tap on the shoulder would be any more convincing than a tasty piece of grilled chicken, anyways.

Dunno why, but it does work, though it's just one of many things I use. It doesn't get her to look, but it does get her to process the sit command I just gave, very smoothly in slow motion so as to not to disturb the stalk.

She did just blow it off when she was fresh from the rescue.

I suspect it works just like someone tapping me on the shoulder if I was very focused on something. I tune out people talking to me quite easily when I'm focused.

I'll take anything I can get though and work from there with whatever woks for her. She's come a long way in 8-9 months from such a hard case. At first nothing would get through, and she would lunge from blocks away when she saw one, and be ok on leash until she saw a squirrel or a cat.

Now she's still just as focused, but much more controlled if that makes sense. I can drop her leash from a block away or even closer and she doesn't bolt, but she's just as obsessed she is just learning to control it. A tap will work now where it didn't before, and hopefully it won't be needed forever.

This is really her only serious flaw, otherwise she's an awesome dog.

I figure if I can't get rid of this drive, or divert it, I at least need to be able to control her while she's in it. I try any method I can think of or see, and just use what works, discard what doesn't. She gets a little better all the time.

Maybe soon I may be able to divert that drive to a safer outlet with some shaping of behavior to fetch, or maybe even something like sheep herding.

My fear is her getting hit if she got loose, or was off leash. She would not even register an oncoming car till it hit her. As it is, what I work at most is a reliable stop command, with a "leave it" type command to break off and keep on walking a close second. Just proofing those off leash and her stopping in full drive off leash would make me ecstatic. I give it about another year at her current rate of progress.

I often wonder how Milan or Stillwell or others would handle the problem.

[Thracian]

I'm not, as long as it's used like a tap on the shoulder to get their attention or break focus on something.

That's the weird thing about it. The two specific situations I vividly remember weren't this way. The dogs were acting fine until the foot nudge, and then the behavior became inappropriate.