[sccr410]

We have two dogs: Toby (bichon/cocker spaniel, male, 30lbs, 5 years) and Gracie (sheltie/shepherd mix, female, 10 lbs, 1.5 yrs). Gracie is terrified of me. I believe it started when crate training as a puppy. I had gotten her out of her crate, we were at the back door when she decided to go as the door was opening. I tried to pick her up to have her finish outside, but ever since I touched her at that moment she has not trusted me.

Another event that likely made things worse and affects both dogs was going to puppy camp (day boarding, or whatever you want to call it) once a week. We get up earlier on puppy camp days so our dogs are not quite ready to get going. Gracie already didn't trust me to go to the door and then Toby was just lazy and doesn't like getting up before 10am. So, I would put the leash on Toby while he slept under the bed and coax him out. Since then, now both Toby and Gracie do not come out from under the bed unless my wife calls them (or we squeak Toby's favorite toy downstairs and Gracie will follow Toby anywhere).

This seems to mostly happen in the morning - in relation to these specific events. Gracie still sleeps in her crate (and loves it, she puts herself in there every evening). However, when I open the crate she won't come out. Only when my wife calls her will she come out. If I try to call her down stairs to go outside, at any time of day, she runs behind my wife or hides upstairs. This now extends to getting a leash on to go on walks - my wife is the only one that can call them both to the door to get ready for a walk. Although Gracie lets me put the harness/leash on, she does so cowering and shivering. Toby has no problem letting me put a leash on.

Some odd twists are that Gracie is a cuddler, even with me. When she does finally get out of her crate, she goes straight to me and cuddles next to me in bed. On the sofa, she has no problem sitting on my lap, rolling over and having me pet her. At the park, she plays fetch with me just fine. During the day (we work from home so we're always home), it's about 50/50 if she will come when called with tail-wagging or run upstairs to hide.

Toby has no real issues with me after our morning routine.

We've basically just dealt with this and my wife is the one that has to let them outside in the morning and also get them to the door for walks. One time my wife was gone for a couple days, however, the dogs essentially didn't come out from under the bed until 3pm, likely when they just couldn't hold it anymore. After going potty, they disappeared in the bedroom again.

Now my wife is pregnant and having a rough pregnancy so far. She isn't always feeling well enough to get up and get them outside first thing in the morning. She also hasn't been able to go on walks with the dogs which they are used to - so the whole walk Gracie is extremely terrified and skittish the with just me. An accidental leash tangling and she is piddling on the sidewalk when I go to try to fix it for her.

Last night, because my wife was feeling worse than usual, we didn't take the dogs on their usual second walk in the evening - we just let them outside to do their thing in the yard and I threw the ball for them out there for about 5-10 minutes (I didn't want to go on our usual 30 min walk and leave my wife feeling horrible by herself). In the middle of the night, Gracie pooped in her crate - I guess the routine change confused her on when to go. I opened the crate and she made a dash for the back door, I assumed to finish her business. I let her out, but once she realized she was with just me outside she wanted back in immediately - and yelped as she ran past me and upstairs to the bedroom (she probably thought she was in trouble for making the mess).

Because my wife is pregnant and it could be a while before she can go back to our regular routine (if ever), this issue needs to get resolved. I'm at my wits end trying to deal with a dog that is constantly terrified of me (and this likely make matters worse). If I can't get her outside or on walks, nobody will be able to.

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

baby steps.

first things first, watch your body language. she's a small girl and you are probably a fair sized man. dont lean over her to do things like put on the leash, kneel down instead and extend a flat palm with a treat on it and dont look at her during this whole operation. keep your body turned slightly to where your side is directly infront of her.

all of that says "hey gracie, im not a threat."


also you can do this at other times for no reason. the body language communicates that you are not a threat and the treat reinforces her coming to you. because if she comes to you she gets a goodie.


almost forgot. if you reach for her in a fear mode, try a flat palm up approaching slowly. the skeerdy dogs ive worked with seem to be more comfortable with that then palm down. dont know why, just a trend ive noticed.


also if she like a ball...you sit down on the floor and start bouncing the ball and dont look at her. if she comes up and shows interest then throw it for her.



oh yeah. during these little exercises keep your movements slow and easy.

all of that will help build up her trust in you. which in turn will help you deal with the issues on the walks.

[sccr410]

I'm always on my knees putting the leash on. I've tried ignoring, staying as calm and unstressed as possible - but it's just not doing much. We have stressful lives running these businesses and I know she picks up on it immediately (they both do). If I have a difficult client I'm working with, I just give out a small sigh and both dogs go running for the bedroom.

I'll try working with her at other times, though - I was focusing mainly on the mornings where the problems arise.

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

you need to use reinforcement. reinforce and reward her for coming to you of her own volition. you dont approach her with the leash, you get down on her level and entice her to approach you.

another thing to consider is a vet check just to make sure this behavior isnt indicative of a medical problem which sometimes is the case.

also look for a member here..MissMutt..she has a ton of resources and there is a whole thread dedicated to fearful dogs. you may be able to pick up some more tips there...look for it its called "the fearful dog thread" and its in the general dog forum...and its LONG

[MissMutt]

Thanks for the nod, Zim I am truly flattered lol. BTW I've been meaning to ask you something so look for a PM from me

Yes sccr, listen to Zim, every time you approach your dog and she runs away you are reinforcing that fearful behavior.

If the problems are mainly with the morning routine.. could they possibly be afraid of the walk that they know is coming? Do they pass a house or area that scares them? Or maybe something scares them at Doggie Day Care?

You might even want to play some crate games with them.. I believe Susan Garrett has a DVD on this topic. Because even though it seems that they go into their crates, based on the behaviors and incidences you're describing (coming out when the door was opening, etc) maybe doing something really fun with the crates could make them really ENJOY them, and not just tolerate them. They obviously don't view their crates as safe places if they are choosing to hide under the bed instead of go into their crates for time alone.

What treats are you using? Get something really high value - I know peanut butter and wet dog food send my scaredy dog into a frenzy. I once walked her home as a thunderstorm was coming (she's afraid of storms) without much incident.. that's big. You need something like that that the dogs go wild for.

[sccr410]

There is nothing on the walk or puppy camp that scares them. The moment they get out the door they are happy (unless it is just me walking, then Gracie is nervous the whole time). If we don't put leashes on and go out the front door, they make a beeline for the car because they know they are going to camp. So, yea, don't think it is any of those things.

This morning the cycle happened again. I tried rewarding both dogs just for being around me while I was in the kitchen making breakfast. Had them come over, sit, give a treat. I went out, got a haircut, returned. They were both downstairs in the living room so I pulled out the leashes and asked them if they wanted to go on a walk. They both bolted upstairs - even before I said a word actually. Even my wife couldn't get the older dog, Toby, to come out to go with her on a walk. So today Toby hasn't even been outside yet and it's after 1pm already.

Gracie hides in her crate where she puts herself to sleep, Toby hides under the bed. Sometimes Gracie will go under the bed with Toby because she just always follows him around, but usually her safe spot is her crate. Toby does not sleep in a crate although we may have to get him one soon as we may have the baby in bed at times when it comes and I want him prepared beforehand.

Toby is very treat oriented, I usually get him to go wherever just by asking "Toby, want a treat?" and he will come (but not out from under the bed). Gracie, on the other hand, isn't very food motivated.

If Toby is under his bed, we basically give up - there isn't anything we have found that will get him out of there, not even a fresh steak would get him out of there. This is why, in the past, I resorted to putting his leash on while he was under there, give gentle tugs so he knew I wanted him out, and after about a minute he would cave and come out. Now he has learned to go to the very middle of the bed where I can't reach. You offer treats and he just stares at you with a timid look. Once he hears me say "walk", he's shuts down and we don't see him until the afternoon.

So far the only odd trick I've found is that Gracie doesn't like shuffling feet like when dancing. So what I've tried is doing a crazy little dance, she gets excited and comes out of her crate to bark at my feet, then we run down stairs. However, the moment she calms down from her craziness of chasing me, she realizes its just me and her at the back door and she bolts right back upstairs into her crate.

Today I'm carrying a treat bag with me at all times and have been simply rewarding them for not doing much of anything - just simply not running away or feeling anxious. Hopefully in a week we can move on to another step, not sure what that next step should be though.

[MissMutt]

Keep doing what you're doing in regards to rewarding them. It doesn't seem like much, but if they are enjoying the food they're getting, you will help change their association of whatever's scaring them to, hopefully, something good.

Just an idea.. but if you have a baby gate or some other similar blockade, could you block them from getting upstairs just to see what they'd do when you pick up their leashes? It could be that their behavior has simply become a habit and isn't being done on their part for much reason at all, except "just because."

If you haven't already, join the Yahoo! Fearful Dog List and tell them what you've told us here.

[sccr410]

Last night I tried working with Toby a lot more - Grace gets a lot of feedback from watching him so if I win him over she will be easier to work with.

I did almost exactly what you said, but I simply closed all access to our bedroom first, got the treats, called Toby over to where the leashes were. He of course bolted upstairs, but ended up cowering next to the bedroom door. I just sat in the hallway, ignored him and put a treat on the floor near me. First I hid the leashes he came over. I showed him the leashes and then he ran back to the door. Eventually he came over and I was able to feed him with the hand holding the leashes. I got the leash on him and we went outside, walked a block and came right back just so he sees that the leash means going outside on a walk.

I tried again about 15-20 minutes later and he found a new hiding spot under the bed in our spare room and I couldn't get him out. So next time I need to close pretty much every single door in the house before I show the leash. Unfortunately my guess is that he will learn what closing all the doors means and get in one of the rooms before I do close it - he learns quickly.

[MissMutt]

I have a suggestion, but it might be hard to do since it seems your dogs go out on an almost daily basis and must be leashed.

What if you just left the leash out somewhere. I'm thinking maybe 5 feet from their food bowls. Don't let them see you place it there, just have it out and leave it lying around. You've pinpointed that something about the leash or the process of putting on the leash is bothering them, so now you must work to change the association that they make with the leashes as a scary thing.

If they are truly terrified even if it is only laying on the floor, then obviously do not stress your dogs out and leave it in a place like near the food bowl as I mentioned.

After they get used to just the presence of the leash, you can play "Look at That!" with the leash. The LAT game is in Leslie McDevitt's book, Control Unleashed. If your dogs are not clicker trained, charge the clicker by repetitively clicking and treating. Once that's been accomplished, say in a happy-go-lucky voice, "Look at that leash!" and point to the leash, as soon as they look, click and treat.

You can try other things as well.. smearing peanut butter on the leash and having them lick it off (might need new leashes after ) just anything you can do with the leash to make it a positive (or at worst, neutral) experience rather than a negative one.

Question: when coming home from doggy day care I assume they must be re-leashed. How do they do at that point?

[sccr410]

They aren't afraid of being leashed, they are afraid of me picking up the leash when we are at home. It's not the leash itself they are afraid of, it's the action of me getting it in the house. If we're outside of the house, like at the park or somewhere, putting the leash back on is just fine.

One thing I wanted to work on this morning was getting Gracie out of her crate. I grabbed the bag of treats, opened her crate and simply sat next to the crate doing nothing. I placed a treat on the outside of her crate and sat there. She just stared at me and shivered. I just ignored her by looking elsewhere, still just stared at me and shivered. Eventually I just gave up and left.

I just don't know how to break this terrified mindset. They are very quick to just run away from me for what I see as no real reason. When they run away, what should I do? I don't want to follow because then Gracie will start yelping, run away faster and sometimes even piddle all over the place. If I sit next to her while she is shivering and try to give her treats, aren't I just rewarding her terrified mindset?

I just don't know how to deal with this...

Just to keep giving more background to hopefully get some ideas on what's going on...

Last night I had a kickball game and brought Gracie along with me. Somehow she had no issue getting out the door this time and made a beeline to the car. I drove over there with no issues, she wasn't nervous about anything. Once we got there, she acted really weird - but not in a bad way. She was just all over me - jumping on me, wanting to wrestle with me. Our friend's dog was there whom she usually plays very well with and she pretty much ignored him and wanted to be on top of me. Note: My wife was not there, it was just me.

So this pretty much affirmed that all her fear of me is 100% localized to the house. I'll be the first to admit that in the house I am often very stressed and a overbearing. Since I work from home running a stressful business, I know all our animals pick up on it and don't like it. Unfortunately I know the only way for my to reduce my stress, body language and "energy" at home is to not work from home - which just isn't possible.

[TooneyDogs]

You've got the right idea but, I suspect your implementation is off a little bit. Think of using the same tactics but, in the context of a wild animal....you're not going to be able to sit next to a wild animal and have it take a treat that's close to you. Try dropping treats as you walk away. You're not rewarding the mindset...you're changing her perception of you....good things are coming from you....maybe you're not so scary after all.

If you want to sit on the floor, sit at least 8' away. That's the 'magic' distance between being close or far away. Just toss treats in her direction without talking or looking at her (use really good treats...SPAM, string cheese, sliced hot dogs, etc.).

The breakthrough comes when she starts to come closer to you.....do not grab the leash now....that's way too early in this confidence building stage. Build the trust first....small things...talking quietly, eye contact, reaching for her, petting her.
When you can do those things and she accepts willingly, then you try the leash.

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

tooney gives good advice.

also

Rome wasn't built in a day...canine fear can't be conquered in a day either. This is going to take an extreme amount of patience on your part. Be bullheaded and don't give up.

What is your feeding ritual like?

you could take tooney's advice a step farther. at feeding time you could sit with the bowl of kibble in your lap and toss bits of food at them from far away.

dogs are associative learners. if you show that you are the source of all things good...they will be more interested in interacting with you. food is what's called a primary reinforcer. food is nessecary to be able to live so in the dog's mind food is a very good thing. by handing out the food in this manner you show more clearly that the food comes from you...making you a good thing..a source of life.

[sccr410]

Gracie is a weird eater. She takes 1-2 kibbles from the bowl and runs to the living room to eat (food is in the kitchen). As I've said, she is not very food motivated - I honestly don't know what motivates her as I haven't found a "golden" thing from any kinds of food, toys or interaction.

Some more background info too...

When she does come out of her crate in the morning, she has no problem then jumping into bed with me and cuddling with me under the sheets. From that point, I cannot then call her downstairs to go outside or do anything. I'm not sure how to convince her how to get off the bed and come with me or do something with me. This happens not only in the morning, but any time of day.

Also, the crate is right next to the bed. If I am 8 ft away on the other side of the room, she'll just dart under the bed with Toby or into the bed with my wife.

Just some info so maybe anyone has some ideas on how to work with her.

[TooneyDogs]

Originally Posted by sccr410

When she does come out of her crate in the morning, she has no problem then jumping into bed with me and cuddling with me under the sheets. From that point, I cannot then call her downstairs to go outside or do anything. I'm not sure how to convince her how to get off the bed and come with me or do something with me. This happens not only in the morning, but any time of day.

Does she jump down from the bed on her own? My thought is that it's a long jump down....it hurts.

Also, the crate is right next to the bed. If I am 8 ft away on the other side of the room, she'll just dart under the bed with Toby or into the bed with my wife.

Don't try to train with all those distractions around. Work one-on-one without all the competing forces. Again, you want to make YOU the best thing around....someone she comes running to every chance she gets.

[sccr410]

She has absolutely no problem getting up and down off the bed, it's not a physical thing at all.

I can't do things without my wife around, our dogs seem to be stuck to her (event more so since she became pregnant).

I'll try as best as possible to just get her on and off the bed, just sitting on the other side of the room offering treats/toys - see how that goes.

[MissMutt]

They aren't afraid of being leashed, they are afraid of me picking up the leash when we are at home. It's not the leash itself they are afraid of, it's the action of me getting it in the house. If we're outside of the house, like at the park or somewhere, putting the leash back on is just fine.

Ohh, okay, sorry about that. I didn't realize that you'd already isolated exactly what it was.

Dropping treats as you walk away, as Tooney said, is a very good idea. One big thing a fearful dog wants is for the pressure to be taken off. So, if you're rewarding with treats AND taking the pressure off by moving away rather than towards the dog, it's double the amount of good IMO.

[sccr410]

Thanks, I'll try these things tomorrow morning!

[sc789]

I adopted Fritz friday...from Ohio. He's a great dog - sweet, hasn't barked once, leashes amazing (seems trained on that - sits when i stop doesn't pull on the leash) and goes potty outside with several glitches...due to him being homeless and found in august, he's only been with his foster mom about 4 weeks - so understandably, he's confused and scared with me since he probably just got used to her. However, i have to carry him off the bed or couch to go outside and go to the bathroom, nor will he go for his food and water unless i bring it to the couch which isn't the long term option but i'm scared he will dehydrate and get hungry.

Vet today said that his instincts will kick in and he will get down off the couch and go find it. However, why is he okay with me petting and kissing him if he's on the couch and bed and as soon as i carry him outside, he acts like i'm going to beat him?? I just don't know how to coax him off - tried treats, won't go for it...positive reinforcement, i'm doing it but that's not working...is it just too soon and he's developing trust?

I'm taking him for car rides with me, loves that. He likes walks, we do those everyday...won't play with any toys...won't eat cookies out of my hand but off the ground/floor....what am i doing wrong???

Signed,

New mom disaster...i think he wants to leave.

Sorry..posted in the wrong thread...this is my first time here...my bad.

[MissMutt]

You're not doing anything wrong. Keep throwing him the cookies on the floor if he's not ready to take them from your hand yet. It's only been three days.. if you do things slowly now, your relationship with him will be stronger in the end.

Why fearful dogs react fearfully to cetain situations is, many times, something that only they know. Something may have happened, even unintentionally, to scare him in that situation at some point in his life.

His being okay with you cuddling him might actually be him shut-down.. if he is not showing you any signs of affection like a "normal" dog would, like licking your face happily, wagging, "smiling," etc, and is just hanging out allowing you to do whatever you want to him without any fuss, chances are he is shut down - which basically means although he is scared he doesn't think he'll be able to get away so he lays there helplessly. This might NOT be the case but I felt it was important to bring up.

Give him another couple of weeks.. if he's still not into his food and won't get up for anything, you might want to look into something herbal or OTC to start with.. perhaps DAP (Dog-Appeasing Pheromone) or the Bach Flower Remedies. If a few months down the line, he is still this listless, then you might want to look into more intense forms of behavioral help (behaviorist, medication, etc). Has he had a vet check since you brought him home? A blood test might be a good thing to get done, just to ensure he isn't sick.

In the meantime, feel free to crash our Fearful Dog Thread in the General Forum any time you feel the need. We're specialists at posting little updates that don't require their own thread.

[sc789]

I don't see a fearful dog forum...and i'm not sure what you mean by "my own thread"...I thought that was the point...you post your issue for help?