[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by wyopets

Perhaps you misunderstood...it was not used as a physical cue, but rather as the cue to let her know she was in something she wasn't supposed to be in. If I merely wanted to get her attention when she was doing nothing wrong I would walk up and touch her shoulder.

No, I believe I understood - you stated clearly you slapped her rump to get her attention. Attention is a behavior. If you slapped her to get that attention, your slap is a cue. If you meant it as a punishment, 'to show her you meant business', you would/should not indiscriminately use physical punishment to teach a behavior like attention.

The dog was new to me, not to the training.

Yes but, training does not transfer. Dogs are masterful discriminators, they are not excellent generalizers. That means I can teach my dog what 'sit' means, this does not however mean she knows what your 'sit' means. New environments garner a step back in training not a raised level in criteria.

Punishment comes when I know a dog knows it's not supposed to do what it's doing.

Without just saying 'I know the dog knows', how do you prove your dog's learning?

I know because it was no harder than you'd pat a baby's back to burp it. Tell me that hurts a dog, that a dog has ever been hurt by that aside from very tiny or sickly animals.

Are you saying a dog's senses are equal to that of a baby? Or would you agree a dog's vision is better than ours, a dog's sense of smell is better than ours, a dog's hearing is better than our? If you agree, how can you deduce that dog does not sense pain better than a baby?

She knows I mean business at that point, as I said, because if she did not correct the behavior at that point she got a ten-minute "time out" in her crate and she liked to avoid those.

What about the possibility that you've taught her she's only punished when you're around? Does that give you a warm-fuzzy feeling? Put this to a test. Leave whatever you don't want her getting into, out, and take a 30 minute walk outside. Would you come home to an untouched whatever? Or would the dog get into whatever it is you left out? If so, she does not rationalize her world as you do for her. All she's learned is how to avoid punishment when you're around, not what behavior is preferred over another.

I do not believe she was hurt or saw me as unstable and frightening for the reason outlined above, it is not a cue meant to be painful and I do not use it in a painful way.

If it's not a cue, and it's not punishing, why use it? Either you want to redirect the dog to an appropriate behavior, or reduce the frequency of the behavior from occurring in the future. There is no in between, otherwise, you're likely impeding learning. This isn't to suggest a stronger physical punishment, that's needless IMO, but you should have a clear definition of your criteria, not a hapless one.

How is calling them bull-headed an excuse not to train when I spend countless hours doing just that? These classes of dogs are known to be more challenging to train because of their higher energy levels and acute senses that keep them from missing any little distraction around them.

Where I come from 'bull-headed' is insulting. There's a difference between understanding a challenge and how that makes a dog unique versus a trait you do not prefer. I was not suggesting you didn't train your dogs, only that you did not see your dog's characteristics as an advantage to your skill. Because if you did, you would not see your dogs as 'bull-headed'. You'd see them as dogs who do not have the same preferences as other dog, therefore, your behavior needs to cater to these preferences. To call them 'bull-headed' is akin to throwing your hands up in the air. Would you agree that a dog that's appreciated is better trained than a dog who's not? If so, you'll see my point.

Obviously I do not use this as an excuse not to train because they are well-trained and have the trophies to prove it.

Not to be rude, but trophies are not a measure of a dog's training. If they gave out trophies for sitting pretty and being companionable, my dog would win them all. Though I'm sure there are many on this forum who would argue their dogs would do the same, and for many I would have to agree to their argument.

I am not punishing instinct, I am breaking his attention away from his intention to rip my dad's cat to shreds and remind him he has broken away from me who he's supposed to be listening to.

You'll have to excuse my confusion, but if you're not punishing the dog, and if you're not cuing attention, how again are you reminding him to listen?

This is what works, this is what I use...and my dad's cat might have an opinion on your definition of heinous crimes

Well to be fair, you didn't really explain how this was an owner absent problem, because why would you allow this dog to rehearse the behavior to begin with. And you didn't exactly explain what your dog was doing, other than chasing a cat. This is hardly heinous, and if I know cats, the cat was enjoying the game.

[wyopets]

hehe...and if you know hounds, you know the cat was in desperate fear of his life, especially since he was cornered under the recliner with a dog trying desperately to get to him. I said that I wasn't punishing the instinct, not that I wasn't correcting at all.

I know she know she's not supposed to be in it because if she sees me before I correct her she leaves it immediately and yes, once she understood what wasn't allowed it did remain untouched when I left the house. Obviously I know training does not carry over entirely, though previous training does help dogs catch on faster...she didn't even have to get used to different voices since all her commands were in sign language and surprisingly that seemed to help...but I never expect any dog to know everything as soon as they come into my home nor did I ever insinuate I expect it. I have many many dogs go through my home and the shelters I train in, I just thought I'd offer my experiences on some instances that spanking of a sort is called for; and if you think they are that sensitive to pain you must be very uneasy about petting and brushing your dogs

Here bull-headed is not offensive, it merely means a dog that is stubborn and generally easily distracted which fits most hounds to a T and is part of the reason I love them so much...they give a unique kind of challenge for someone who wishes to diversify a dog's training into different areas, most of my dogs are trained in four key areas plus general house and walking manners.

Yes, you have definitely demonstrated we have a difference of opinion on the subject, which I knew, and I'm not here to debate about it but I'll gladly offer up my results on various dogs to you in PM if I get the time . I am merely offering my own personal experiences as is the purpose of the thread...I can certainly see where this debate could escalate and would do nothing but waste each other's time, and I get tired of trying to explain every bit of the situation when it's obvious some of what I'm trying to say isn't translating right through text; my training methods have worked very well for me for 14 years and over 150 dogs and I'm sure you have plenty of reason to be attached to yours as well, anything beyond offering basic opinion is pointless

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by wyopets

and if you know hounds, you know the cat was in desperate fear of his life...I said that I wasn't punishing the instinct, not that I wasn't correcting at all.

I've been owned by two Bassett Hounds, so I know them a bit. And I can recall a reoccurring event where a neighbor's cat would daily enter my dog's yard to lick the food crust off his bowl, and almost daily my dog chased him off. The cat never got away with much, but you could often find him hanging out on the fence at meal time patiently waiting for an opportunity. IMO the cat enjoyed teasing my dog, and to be frank I enjoyed watching him do it. I can recall another instance where my dog had pinned this same cat in a corner. My dog looked at me as if to suggest what do I do now? Only to find the cat had escaped while he wasn't looking. A dumb Bassett? No way. That part of the Bassett's behavior chain wasn't bred out of him, so any such labels are pointless and a waste of time that could be better spent on training.

I know she know she's not supposed to be in it because if she sees me before I correct her she leaves it immediately...

And why do you think this is? Perhaps because your body language cues the dog that punishment is coming? So, good job?

I have many many dogs go through my home and the shelters I train in, I just thought I'd offer my experiences on some instances that spanking of a sort is called for; and if you think they are that sensitive to pain you must be very uneasy about petting and brushing your dogs

Actually, I am uneasy about petting and brushing a dog before I know something about his preferences. Not all dogs care to be touched, even after endless hours of counter conditioning and desensitization. Some just tolerate it out of helplessness. So yes, I am very alert to how physical contact is received by a dog, regardless of how I humanly perceive that contact to be. I just find the practice of equating a dog's senses to human senses silly, especially when it's this rationale that's used to justify a physical punishment.

Here bull-headed is not offensive, it merely means a dog that is stubborn and generally easily distracted which fits most hounds to a T and is part of the reason I love them so much...

Stubborn, bull-headed, hard-headed, dumb, stupid, however you want to negatively label a dog all these euphemisms mean the same thing; there's something you don't appreciate about the dog, and you'll use this lack of appreciation to justify your own behavior. Most people, those who are human, find it difficult to punish a smart, level-headed, willing-to-please dog, but a stubborn dog is another story. It seems we humans are the only animal on the planet who feels it necessary to humanize an animal in order to justify our deeds. As much as this type of reasoning has helped us to evolve, I find this practice abusive when it comes to justifying physical punishments, nor does it illustrate a humanity IMO.

I am merely offering my own personal experiences as is the purpose of the thread...I can certainly see where this debate could escalate and would do nothing but waste each other's time, and I get tired of trying to explain every bit of the situation when it's obvious some of what I'm trying to say isn't translating right through text; my training methods have worked very well for me for 14 years and over 150 dogs and I'm sure you have plenty of reason to be attached to yours as well, anything beyond offering basic opinion is pointless

Well, I wouldn't be included in the club that finds sound reasoning pointless. If I can't find the reasoning in what I say, I'm not likely to hold a conviction. A part of being a good dog trainer is understanding how to communicate your conviction, to both dog and human. What I can do with my dog and what you can do with your dog has no value if you can't communicate your ideas in a logical manner.

I'm not arguing whether punishment works or not. The answer is, of course it can. What I'm arguing is how we come to justify those punishments, and if we don't have a good reason to use punishment, why are we using it? I believe if more people sought to answer this question of themselves they'd find their dogs easier to train. This has been my experience with every dog I now encounter. And if explaining my position does little to dissuade your opinion, yet helps another dog owner to better communicate with their dog, who am I to call this exercise pointless? Perhaps by better understanding how dogs learn we can teach others how to minimize punishments in their training. This would be a goal, would it not? This thread doesn't have to be about spanking dogs. It can be about how we didn't impose 'human' on our dogs and treated them with a respect deserving of a dog. Being treated like a dog shouldn't own a negative connotation.

[AnimalLuvr]

I usely spank my dog but if there is a good reason to I will. (but not very hard)

[French Ring]

Originally Posted by cshellenberger

If a dog does something wrong, you should spank the one responsible, YOU!!!!

Yeah, totally agree...

Do you want to know why? You were the one who left it unsupervised. Owners should be the one who get punished.

[wyopets]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I've been owned by two Bassett Hounds, so I know them a bit. And I can recall a reoccurring event where a neighbor's cat would daily enter my dog's yard to lick the food crust off his bowl, and almost daily my dog chased him off. The cat never got away with much, but you could often find him hanging out on the fence at meal time patiently waiting for an opportunity. IMO the cat enjoyed teasing my dog, and to be frank I enjoyed watching him do it. I can recall another instance where my dog had pinned this same cat in a corner. My dog looked at me as if to suggest [i]what do I do now?

Well just take my word for it then...my dog was on the warpath, baying at the top of his lungs and ripping into the recliner trying to get to the cat (he once chewed through the bottom half of five feet of PVC pipe before I could stop him when he was trying to get to a rabbit); we left the cat alone for a while and then a close family friend tried to coax him out and got his finger bit to the bone and had to go to the emergency room...he was NOT enjoying himself. As I said, this is a fully-trained and active coonhound, if he gets something into a corner he is not at a loss of what to do with it and it has very little chance of living after that.

Hehe...no, bull-headed doesn't mean there's something I don't like about the dog, as I said (and you quoted), that's one of the reasons I love them so much

[reevz]

I'm no expert, but I kinda liken it to the way that Caesar Milan corrects dogs. He doesn't spank, but he does touch them in a way that startles them, gets them to stop doing what they're doing wrong. I think anyone who considers "spanking" a useful way to teach their dog, perhaps it's actually more contact than the dog needs, though I suppose it's still getting the message across. I think spanking, though, tends to come from an angry place, whereas the type of touch-nudge that Caesar preaches comes from a calm, teaching angle.

[Abbymarie]

Originally Posted by Boxer & Co.

When I was little my parents would spank our dogs if they did something to teach them. I have recently gotten a puppy and have started reading alot of training books. Now the books say that spanking does not work but my old dogs seemed to learn just fine with spankings. I have not tried this approach with my puppy because I think I can train without spanking. I do spank my children to correct them, and I kind of feel bad that they get spankings and the dog doesn't. Thats just me though. Dogs are not smart like people are and my children know that I spank out of love not anger. I don't think a dog can understand that. My question is .... I was wondering if anyone else has spanked their dog before and how they felt about it? I'm am not trying to get a debate going here, I just want to see what others are doing for their training. Thank you.

Thats because your dogs learned to fear your parents.

My friends father knew nothing about dogs and they had got this dog (he was 7 months old and the people they bought him from obviously abused him) well when he would do something bad her dad would take a newspaper to him and once I think he took a belt to him. I was so appauled but that dog feared him, the worse part is that dog was agressive to begin with. Eventually that dog was given up but then he became someone elses problem. They didn't want to take the time to fix his problems

[blunder]

To start with there are more than one kind of "spanking"
It's pointless to spank a dog unless it knows what the spanking is for, so the time frame for a spanking is about 0.5 seconds from the time of the offense. The timing is so critical that most people, most of the time, are better off taking a different approach. Effectiveness is more of an issue than right or wrong.
Spanking can also be used as a distraction, ever hear of "stick fetch"? Take my word for it, stick fetch has nothing to do with fetching a stick.
A swat on the fanny can often be used as a sign of affection (best to check in with the dog to make sure it is perceived as such tho')
Is a swat on the butt, a tap with a stick, a pop of a lead, or a zap with a collar any different from the rest? TEACH, DON'T PUNISH

[wvasko]

I really don't know what spanking entails but I'm going to substitute the words hit/punch/kick. I have had too many headshy/handshy dogs to train that were worked over by young adults. The worst part is most were young dogs.

[Dieselsmama]

Originally Posted by wvasko

I really don't know what spanking entails but I'm going to substitute the words hit/punch/kick. I have had too many headshy/handshy dogs to train that were worked over by young adults. The worst part is most were young dogs.

agreed, very sad Wvasko

[starry15]

I've spanked my dog once. Which was to teach him to not bite. When he was a puppy he bit me once and he got a spanking on his behind. Not from me, from my mother. I was only five at the time. Least I am being honest with y'all. When I took over the training once I got older, I didn't use the spanking training method like my mom did. Found out he listened better without the spanking or threating. From then on, I made sure I always was around star instead of my mom. She still spanks me sometimes.

Dogs listen better without a spanking and I wouldnt spank my dog at all! Makes them afraid of you!

[Mondo]

I swatted Mondo yesterday with a glove he was chewing on. As soon as i got it away from him he grabbed my shoe so i swatted him with the glove and said no. He didn't chew on anything the rest of the time i was awake, not sure if it lasted the rest of the day for my wife.

I felt bad for doing it afterwards but i was frustrated with him for not listening to me.

[Canadian Dog]

Originally Posted by Mondo

I felt bad for doing it afterwards but i was frustrated with him for not listening to me.

Your frustration should not be taken out on your dog.

[poptart]

spanking a dog, like you would a child, is useless. Dog's are not your kids. You are just hitting hitting a puppy for being a puppy. There are many other ways that dog's do respond to.