[siberian husky lover12]

Well, all do is spank my dogs with newspaper. It scares them so they do not want to do whatever they did the next time. I trained my puppy in just 1.5 weeks and she has never gone on the floor scince.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by siberian husky lover12

Well, all do is spank my dogs with newspaper. It scares them so they do not want to do whatever they did the next time. I trained my puppy in just 1.5 weeks and she has never gone on the floor scince.

I seriously doubt it had anything to do with you striking her. I would credit the housetraining to other tactics, and not striking them with newspaper. No modern dog trainer would strike a dog in house training. None.

[cshellenberger]

Originally Posted by nrhareiner

I do spank my animals if you want to call it that. How I do it depends on the animal. However I have a 3 second rule. If you are going to disapline an animal you do it with in 3 seconds of them doing what they are doing and it only last 3 seconds. Beleive me it does work.

Heidi



By saying this you are saying your dog does nothing wrong and that is just not posible. To truely train an animal they must first do something wrong so you can correct them and put them back where they should be. If you gaurd the animal so tightly that it never makes a mistake then it will never truely learn and then when you are not there to guard it and keep if from making that mistake the animal will not know what to do. Then you will really have a problem.

Heidi

No, what I'm saying is if the dog has done something wrong, it's the owners training that has failed. If a dog has an accident on the floor, it is the owners fault for not watching it and being sure it doesn't. My dogs do wrong things, it's MY fault usually because I've been inattentive. Of course, you can only expect the BEST trained dog to comply 92% of the time.

The statement was meant as a joke BTW, I guess some just didn't get it.

[lovemygreys]

Have I spanked my dogs?? No. I have I popped them on the hiney? Yep. And it works every time. It's not to hurt the dog, but to surprise/correct them. I've "cured" some bathroom dumpster divers and some bowl jumpers at feeding time that way.

I think Alpha summed it up quite nicely in post #20.

Dogs respond and learn from postive/negative punishment as well as positive/negative reinforcement. The key is knowing which method is appropriate in extinguishing/shaping different behaviors.

[Alpha]

The key is knowing which method is appropriate in extinguishing/shaping different behaviors.

That's perfect!

It relates to Curbsides mention of using physical punishment for housebreaking and Carla's mention of; accidents in the house usually meaning the pup wasn't supervised or taken out enough.

Physical corrections are not for every dog, and not for every circumstance.

I think physical corrections in general and whether they can be positive/negative, also has a LOT to do with your relationships with your dogs. If you have a strong bond and there's no question who's boss. For someone who has done no training, no bonding, no "leadership" excercises, a tap on the hiney may mean a nip in the hand. Just as the alpha of the pack would do to a dog lower in the pecking order if it tried to correct him.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

Dogs respond and learn from postive/negative punishment as well as positive/negative reinforcement. The key is knowing which method is appropriate in extinguishing/shaping different behaviors.

And Karen Pryor would further say "punishers, like reinforcers, are defined by the receiver, not the giver." Unfortunately, as Alpha pointed out, some people define punishment on their own without knowing what punishment is. So they roll up a news paper and smack their dog for peeing on the carpet...but Skinner told me to do it. Fine, blame him, but the dog still has to pee, right? So this same Skinner dude also theorized that if you give a positive stimulus that follows an event it will increase the chance of this event reoccurring...hence, give the dog praise for peeing outside. Whacking a dog with a newspaper is an aversion, a positive punishment (positive as in adding an aversive). A positive punishment can also be a simple NO!. But like Karen says, the punishment is defined by the dog, and not by us. This is how definite talking about punishment can be. However, physical punishment like spanking, where a dog cowers in fear, has no place in dog training unless it's for the most heinous crimes, where it would be a last resort.

Originally Posted by Alpha

I think physical corrections in general and whether they can be positive/negative, also has a LOT to do with your relationships with your dogs.

BTW, there's no such thing as a negative punishment that's a physical correction if we're speaking in psychological terms. Maybe imagined, but none real. I'm just pulling your leg.

[Alpha]

I've heard the term negative punishment, being defined as: Taking something AWAY that counts as a punishment, simply put something like attention. Ignoring a dog that's jumping would be negative punishment.

It does not count as reinforcing, because your not reinforcing the behaviour, but rather negative (taking something away) punishment (because the dog WANTS attention)

Curbside makes a good point. Correcting the dog for something they HAVE to do is pretty confusing to a dog. We may *think* that they know they are getting corrected for peeing on your carpet but the truth be told, they may have NO idea!

Hence why combining the punishment with reward is so effective.

With everything our dogs do new, or sometimes even everyday things, you have to remember that we have to clearly state in terms they understand what is acceptable and what is not.

Edit: My bad Curbside, I see now that you quoted what my post what you were getting at. To clarify: I meant, a negative/positive OUTCOME, in our eyes at least It could very well be considered a negative that Lassie can't chew on the yummy couch anymore! ROFL

[RonE]

Puzzling human behavior that we see all the time: Dog runs away. Human screams at dog to come back. Dog finally comes back and human spanks the dog for running away.

And yet, they still love us. It's a wonderment.

[nrhareiner]

First I would never spank an 8 week old puppy. They have no idea what is going on or what they have done wrong. Disapline when used must be age apropriat. I do not disapline my pups the same way I do my older dogs. Also they have no refurence point to know what is correct and what is wrong.

Also and this is very important. NEVER disapline a dog who does not come. Reason being is that you have not cought him and disaplined him for not coming to you, in his mind he has been disaplined for coming. So in his mind every time you catch him he is getting disaplined if you spank him for not coming. In his mind he is not being disaplined for not comming. Does that make sence? Boy I hope that makes sence. I have reread it and I am not sure my self. I just know what I want to say hope it comes accost that way.

Also each dog is differnt. I would not disapline my salukie the same way I disapline my old Wolf cross dog. They have differnt personalities.

Here is an example of what happened not too long ago. My Corgi pup was doing really well about going out to go to the bathroom ( she was at the time about 10 weeks old) Then for some reason she started just going in the house. I would grab her tell her no and put her out. This keep up for several days. She knew she was doing wrong however for what ever reason she did not care it was just easyer to go in the house. So finally I cought her in the ack and spanked her told her no and put her out. Took a few times but to date she has not had anouther accident in the hourse. Did her behavior change b/c I spanked her? Who knows. However she found out there was consiquences to her actions.

Big thing is that no matter what you do you need to be consistant in it.

Heidi

[Alpha]

First I would never spank an 8 week old puppy. They have no idea what is going on or what they have done wrong.

Just to debate, then what do you say of mothers/littermates disciplining each other?

If they don't understand what they've done wrong, how come some of the first lessons in a dogs life about bite inhibition come before those first 8 weeks of life from littermates?

I also would probably not even do my wrist tap on a puppy, but just to throw it out there, that puppies mere weeks of age, are disciplined PHYSICALLY by their mother and littermates.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by RonE

And yet, they still love us. It's a wonderment.

It's in how dogs departed from wolves to form a symbiotic relationship. And yes I did say it's how dogs departed from wolves. I blame dogs for adapting to us first before we started to meddle with them. But that's a whole other topic.

[RonE]

Originally Posted by siberian husky lover12

Well, all do is spank my dogs with newspaper.

Well that helps explain the appalling illiteracy rate among canines.

[nrhareiner]

Thing about a littermate or mother disaplining a pup is a bit differnt then spanking a pup. Now if the 8 week old pup statted using my finger as a chew toy I would tap them on the nose very very lightly and say no and put a bone in their mouth.

If you really watch the way one dog disapline anouther they really sound like they are killing the pup however if you look closely their mouths never touch the pup. That is if the older dog is socially exceptable. One of my older dogs just has problems with other dogs in his space. When he first went after one of the pups he was very agreesive and I had to disapline him and made him understand that at that leval it was not correct and I was not going to tolerate it. He lerned that if he disaplined the pups with a growl and short snap and did not acctually bit down on the pup he got the same results and I did not get after him.

One thing I have found really works when working with and training an animal is how you approch the animal and your body languade. Keeping in mind they are pack animals and take your place as alfa member of the pack really does work.

Fun to find new ways to get an old dog to do new tricks.

Heidi

Originally Posted by RonE

Well that helps explain the appalling illiteracy rate among canines.

Hay my dogs resemble that remark. Acturlly evey one knows exactly what to do with the Toledo Blade.

Heidi

[Jaylie]

I will, on only special occasions when she has done something REALLY bad, "Spank" Jaylie. NEVER EVER EVER EEEEEEVVVVVVVEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRR come DOWN on a dog. This will teach him to shy away and be afraid of you. When you need to get a point through to your dog, have it in a stand, and hit UP onto the chest of the dog.

[lovemygreys]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

And Karen Pryor would further say "punishers, like reinforcers, are defined by the receiver, not the giver." Unfortunately, as Alpha pointed out, some people define punishment on their own without knowing what punishment is. So they roll up a news paper and smack their dog for peeing on the carpet...but Skinner told me to do it. Fine, blame him, but the dog still has to pee, right? So this same Skinner dude also theorized that if you give a positive stimulus that follows an event it will increase the chance of this event reoccurring...hence, give the dog praise for peeing outside. Whacking a dog with a newspaper is an aversion, a positive punishment (positive as in adding an aversive). A positive punishment can also be a simple NO!. But like Karen says, the punishment is defined by the dog, and not by us. This is how definite talking about punishment can be. However, physical punishment like spanking, where a dog cowers in fear, has no place in dog training unless it's for the most heinous crimes, where it would be a last resort.

Of course the reinforcer/punisher is "defined" by the receiver Show me where I said that it wasn't. Nowhere in my post did I advocate using an extreme physical correction....certainly not anything that would make a dog cower in fear.

BTW, there's no such thing as a negative punishment that's a physical correction if we're speaking in psychological terms. Maybe imagined, but none real. I'm just pulling your leg.

Negative punishment is a well defined within the Theory of Operant Conditioning - decreasing the likelihood of a behavior occuring in the future by removing a positive stimulus. Used incorrectly, any type of punishment can certainly create some unintended results (though so can a reinforcer ).

A physical correction would be a positive punisher.

Originally Posted by Jaylie

When you need to get a point through to your dog, have it in a stand, and hit UP onto the chest of the dog.

I'm trying to picture this, and honestly, I just can't. I can't imagine when I would ever want or need to do something like that.

[Boxer & Co.]

ok, ok, ok.........I get it. Your damned if ya do and your damned if you don't.
Here is my problem. My children are becoming scared of our 8 week old puppy. My children do not hurt her in anyway and are never left unattended with her. I am trying to teach the dog to quit being so rough with the kids. No, they do not rough house or play tug a war with her. The puppy jumps on them and nips and chews their hands constantly. My child cannot walk in front of the dog without being knocked down and bit and scratched. I know she can be trained but how? What I've been doing is popping her on the but. No, not hard but I still call it spanking. I spank my kids and I say I spank them. They get spanked harder than the dog. No, I don't abuse my kids. Thats a whole topic I am very strong in my beliefs on and I ain't gettin into it here. So, please don't say anything about the fact that I spank my kids. Anyhow, am I doing wrong by popping her butt when she is doing this to my kids? Before I do I usually say "Ah, Coco, no bite". She doesn't here me. The kids evidently taste good. I repeat again and move closer to her this time. She looks at me but continues with her munching. The kid is crying. Now, that is when I spank her. I pop her on the butt and she leaves the kid alone. For a min. anyway. It seems that gets her attention. I don't know if its going to work though. Any advice would help our family out alot.
Also, I don't want to sound like all I do all day is punish her. She gets praised, belly rubs, treats, outside playtime where she can eat the mulch out of the flower beds. I am constantly rewarding her for good things she does. I believe she is really smart and learns quick. She is only 8 weeks and basically housetrained already. She goes to the door and whines. She has been doing it for about 3 days now. She has only woke me up once to go potty during the night. She stays in her crate all night and doesn't make a sound. Ok, I'll quit bragging now. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. That was certainly not my intentions. I'm just a little confused on what to do with my situation.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

Of course the reinforcer/punisher is "defined" by the receiver Show me where I said that it wasn't. Nowhere in my post did I advocate using an extreme physical correction....certainly not anything that would make a dog cower in fear.

I attempted to add to your point (positive reinforcement). It was not a suggestion to take away from your point (negative punishment) or claim an adcovacy for extreme physical punishment. I'm confident you know the difference between a touch on the bum for attention versus a rolled up news paper for extreme attention. I'm not so sure about others, and I thought Karen's quote was a good follow up point to your original statement. That's all.

[Whitney]

I don't believe in spanking. The only reason why I USED to spank my first dog was because yes, I was angry. If I am angry at something that my dog did wrong, then I should be spanking myself, really. I feel that my dog does wrong due to my failure to teach him/her right from wrong. I do not have kids yet, and I would love to have kids in the future, and I will also, never spank my children. My mother and father had spanked me, but that didn't really teach me much besides learning how to lie better, or hide the things that I had done wrong better. Punishing ourselves is never the answer. We punish ourselves, and we punish our children and our pets. Why not use positive rewards so that our pets and children WANT to do the right thing, instead of are afraid to do the wrong things? Good topic though.

[cshellenberger]

Here is my problem. My children are becoming scared of our 8 week old puppy. My children do not hurt her in anyway and are never left unattended with her. I am trying to teach the dog to quit being so rough with the kids.

Here's the bite inhibition article.

http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

The key is that EVERYBODY must be consistant and on the same page. You have to remember that an 8 week old pup is like a 10 month old human infant, just starting to learns the rules of it's 'society'.

BTW, a dog doesn't severely dicipline a pup until the puppy licence runs out (around 4 months old) until then, if hte pup is being obnoxius the older dog will get up and walk away. Now littermates and other pups are a different story, and that is where a pup learns bite inhibition from. Those lessons take place from 6 weeks to 12 weeks old, that's why so many 8 weeks old pups bite and nip. We have to teach what the littermates aren't around to.

I would also teach the Puppy Zen excercise at the top of the training forum, htis will help to teach the pup "Leave It" then, when bite inhibition is reasonable solid, start the "Rev Up/ Cool Down". All these are life lessons and manners for the dog, as opposed to training 'sit, stay, come' (also neccessary) which are for our convenience and to keep them safe.

[lovemygreys]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I attempted to add to your point (positive reinforcement). It was not a suggestion to take away from your point (negative punishment) or claim an adcovacy for extreme physical punishment. I'm confident you know the difference between a touch on the bum for attention versus a rolled up news paper for extreme attention. I'm not so sure about others, and I thought Karen's quote was a good follow up point to your original statement. That's all.

My apologies! I misread your post....that's what I get for being online when I should be sleeping