[Elana55]

He counter surfs because of the smell of food there. It is the counter.. you do prepare food.. he is a Bassett (of the Great Nose Variety.. not that there is another kind).

Just the SMELL is rewarding and, if, one time he found a morsel, the counter's fate is sealed.

When you train a dog to do something on cue, you typically have to retrain it in several places so the dog generalizes it. The thing I don't understand is a dog can see one counter in his life, find food on it one time and generalize counter surfing to every counter the dog ever sees again anywhere.... Personally I think it is a motivation thing. A dog is motivated to go somewhere on his own searching for food (scavenger behavior) but is not so motivated (even with food) to get food by following a cue.

It is sort of like me reading a book on Child Psychology.. I can read the same thing over several times b4 it sinks in.. and then I would forget it the instant I completed the course. Getting an A would be the motivation.. not the action of learning the stuff (no interest in the subject, so learning it has no reward in and of itself). Give me a book on Veterinary Microbiology or diagnostics and it is mine forever first pass thru.

In thinking of Brutus, he is very food motivated. He has never been rewarded for counter surfing but does it anyway. Well, I think he IS being rewarded.. the SMELL of food is reward enough. I wonder if something he found noxious smelling were all over the counter if that would not encourage him to stop (it would ahve to be repeated). Is there something this dog hates (like Raw Lemons or dill pickles)? Maybe lace the counter with that stuff and thereby remove the self reward of smelling last night's Steak (and we know you eat Filet Mignon regularly Hulk).

[ColoradoSooner]

First, I have to ask...is the dog actually jumping ON to the counter? Or just putting his front feet up and then surfing? I have the funniest image in my head of a bassett actually on a counter but can't figure out how they would manage it with those short legs and heavy body.

I saw an episode of "It's Me or the Dog" with a counter surfing dog and they set up some blocks at the edge of the counter so when the dog nosed them, they fell. Didn't hurt the dog, of course, but startled him enough that he didn't mess with it again.

What kind of trash can do you have? I assume it probably has a lid of some sort. Would it be possible to (temporarily) use duct tape to hold it closed in the case of a tip over? Again, if it's not rewarding, he should quit doing it.

[TooneyDogs]

Originally Posted by hulkamaniac

Now I'm depressed that I have failed so miserably with this dog.

Did you ever see the movie "Searching for Bobby Fischer", the story of Josh Waitzkin....8 time national chess champion, International Grandmaster. world champion (21 times) in the martial arts and author of the book titled the Art of Learning?

He talks about how we don't learn from our successes.....we learn from our mistakes....if we examine them....big if. That's what can make us good...really good.

[peppy264]

Have you tried old fashioned punishment? OFFNOGRABSTAREGRRRRRRR. Or is that not sophisticated enough ?

[Marsh Muppet]

Originally Posted by peppy264

Have you tried old fashioned punishment? OFFNOGRABSTAREGRRRRRRR. Or is that not sophisticated enough ?

That would be my way, and I wouldn't lose a nanosecond of sleep over my choice. But I assume Hulk has not chosen that route for reasons other than he hadn't thought of it.

[Cracker]

Peppy, NO , BAD DOG!! ROFL

Keep in mind, old Brutus just had an oral tumour removed...no alpha rolling allowed :P

Quote by Hulkamaniac:I don't like this for the same reason I don't like the idea of rewarding a dog for jumping off furniture. It doesn't teach the dog that jumping up is the behavior you don't want.

I totally understand this thinking, and it is common to think this way. BUT...by rewarding what you DO want (four on the floor as opposed to on the counter or on the furniture) you INCREASE the frequency of the four on the floor. Yes, it sounds like he's scoring at both ends of the field and in a way he is...it becomes a win win...dog on four feet scores him a goodie, two footed doesn't so the two footed behaviour decreases.

I spent many an hour dealing with a client with an EXTREME resource guarder..kitchen, hallway, dining room table area, the couch, the bed etc. Any time the client tried to force ANYTHING he was bitten, badly. Of course, if he'd dealt with it when it was only food guarding it wouldn't have gotten so bad..but he thought the dog "would grow out of it".
He had a trainer in, the trainer tried to "remove him" from the couch. He got bitten as well. He dismissed the veterinary behaviourist as a "treat thrower" and said he didn't want the dog to "WIN". This man was digging his own hole. I basically told him the same thing the vet.beh did, NILIF, management, crate training and "lure and reward". He didn't like it much but at this point was at his wit's end. Then the dog (conveniently) went and got up on the couch. I lured him off, had him sit, rewarded him. He did it again. We repeated this about ten times...each time he spent more and more time ON THE FLOOR before launching himself back up. He was starting to get it but it would take many more repetitions.
I then showed him how to teach his dog "go to his mat" when they were dining and when they were in the kitchen.
He still didn't like it but was willing to try.
Two weeks later, on a recheck appt. the dog was no longer even bothering to get up on the couch. The floor, after many reps became MORE REWARDING than the couch. Now, considering how severe this dogs beh. issues were it took many months to get to the point where the dog had reduced ALL of his bad behaviours, but in those many months there were NO biting incidents and only the rare incident of guarding.

So there IS reasoning behind convincing the dog he's "won"...dogs do what WORKS. We simply have to find out a way to teach the dog that what WE WANT works for him too.

Oh, and about tossing the hotdogs on the floor to distract him from countersurfing...the hotdogs need to come FROM YOU, the floor is just the floor...kindof like the counter. Be the giver of all things good....controlling all his access to food is the way to ensure he is responsive to you!

[hulkamaniac]

Originally Posted by ColoradoSooner

First, I have to ask...is the dog actually jumping ON to the counter? Or just putting his front feet up and then surfing? I have the funniest image in my head of a bassett actually on a counter but can't figure out how they would manage it with those short legs and heavy body.

I saw an episode of "It's Me or the Dog" with a counter surfing dog and they set up some blocks at the edge of the counter so when the dog nosed them, they fell. Didn't hurt the dog, of course, but startled him enough that he didn't mess with it again.

What kind of trash can do you have? I assume it probably has a lid of some sort. Would it be possible to (temporarily) use duct tape to hold it closed in the case of a tip over? Again, if it's not rewarding, he should quit doing it.

No, he just puts his front paws and of course his head up there and looks around for food. Until you see them do it, you forget that they're really, really long dogs. The trash can is a typical kitchen trash can that's about 3-4 ft tall. I wouldn't think smelling counter tops is rewarding, but for him it is apparently.

I like the idea of something he doesn't like, but so far I haven't figured out what it is. The guy seems to love to eat everything. What are some things that dogs won't eat, but aren't harmful? Or better, that smell bad to them?

And for those who have asked, I've tried punishments. I've done leash corrections, verbal corrections and the famous CM "claiming space" routine. None worked.

[canteloupe]

The very first thing I would do is make those behaviors unrewarding for him.

For one thing, there should never, ever be anything edible sitting on the counter (when you're not there cooking). I have cats, so this is pretty much how it is anyway. Finding food up there is incredibly rewarding for him, so if you leave stuff up there you will end up with a much harder training job.

Once you establish this, you can use other methods to reinforce the idea that the counter is not a fun place to mess with. I like the "It's Me or the Dog" suggestion of setting up light-weight blocks along the edge of the counter. I would probably use paperback books. If the books are placed all along the counter and slightly over the edge so they tip easily, this will make it hard for him to even see what's on the counter without getting startled.

As for the trashcan, the first thing I'd do is make it so it can't be tipped. I would probably jerry-rig it so that it was attached to the wall. Or you could put bricks in the bottom underneath the bag to make it extra heavy. Then the reinforcement of being able to rummage through the trash is removed, and you can work more successfully on training him to leave the trash alone altogether.

EDIT:
I see now that you said he just likes to smell the counter. To eliminate this reinforcement, I definitely recommend you fill a spray bottle with white vinegar and use it to spritz the counter off after every cooking session. White vinegar is not only an excellent natural surface cleaner, it also eliminates odors that humans can't even smell.
For instance, white vinegar (unlike most surface cleaners) can eliminate the pheromone trails that ants use to navigate, and for this reason it's very useful when you have an ant infestation. Just spritz it on and wipe. It stops smelling vinegary as soon as it dries, which is fast.

[peppy264]

Build a small table about 18 inches wide and counter high. Put it beside the end of your counter. Smear the top of it with something really tasty to the dog. If he has an ounce of ability to learn he will start going to that 'part' of the counter to surf and ignore the rest of it where the reward is much lower. Every few days cut an inch off of the legs of your table. In a few weeks he's no longer surfing, just checking out his own ground level private dinner table. Stupid dogs require stupid solutions.

[Elana55]

Originally Posted by peppy264

Build a small table about 18 inches wide and counter high. Put it beside the end of your counter. Smear the top of it with something really tasty to the dog. If he has an ounce of ability to learn he will start going to that 'part' of the counter to surf and ignore the rest of it where the reward is much lower. Every few days cut an inch off of the legs of your table. In a few weeks he's no longer surfing, just checking out his own ground level private dinner table. Stupid dogs require stupid solutions.

I read this and I started to laugh.. and the funny thing is, it might work. :P

Or it just might give ol' Brutus another thing to surf.

I was mowing the grass earlier and thinking about this dog and this thread (yeah.. I need a life and its a PUSH mower) and the frustrations of owning him.. and I had to laugh a little.

Hulk.. you ain't a bad trainer.. you have a BASSETT HOUND. Everyone I have ever known with one of these dogs has had "training problems." My experience is limited and anecdotal.

We also need to remember that the dog is 10 years old. If there is going to be a solution, it needs to be a relatively non invasive one and happen pretty quickly (he just had a mouth tumor removed and he is a senior citizen).

The rewarding when off the counter works.. but it takes time and we have a BASSETT HOUND here.. and training them takes time... a LOT of time.. months.. and the behavior is very ingrained. I suspect he would learn to put 4 on the floor for a food reward and STILL counter surf because his Bassettt Nose finds it self rewarding.

Personally? I would just let it go and laugh at myself for owning this dog and this breed. I really like challenges but I know my limits and those limits, in dog training, are spelled B-A-S-S-E-T-T...... Especially 10 year old Bassett...

This is a dog I would send to WVasko.

[hulkamaniac]

Wvasko is more than welcome to come and work with this dog. I'll e-mail him a key to my house so he can let himself in whenever he pleases.

I will not be building on to my counters. That idea is ridiculous to me. I just hate problems I can't solve. I'm a computer tech by trade. There is not a single computer problem I cannot solve. Sometimes the solution is to format the hard drive and start over from scratch, but that does solve the problem. Sometimes the solution is to just buy another computer, but this is still a solution. Also frustrating that Zero learns so quickly and Brutus doesn't seem to learn at all.

I have tried clicking/treating him for having four on the floor before. I did that for about a week and saw no progress. I had forgotten about that when I posted earlier. I'm willing to try clicking/treating for jumping off my counters. It's one thing I haven't tried and I don't see it making things worse.

[FilleBelle]

I spent nine years with my kitchen trash sitting on top of my dryer because it seemed easier to put it there than to train the dog not to dig through it.

That's how terrible a trainer I am.

[canteloupe]

Did you think about any of my ideas?
The white vinegar to eliminate counter smells, books along the edge, and making the trash untippable? I think these are good suggestions.

Sometimes it seems like no one is reading my posts...

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by hulkamaniac

Wvasko is more than welcome to come and work with this dog. I'll e-mail him a key to my house so he can let himself in whenever he pleases.

I will not be building on to my counters. That idea is ridiculous to me. I just hate problems I can't solve. I'm a computer tech by trade. There is not a single computer problem I cannot solve. Sometimes the solution is to format the hard drive and start over from scratch, but that does solve the problem. Sometimes the solution is to just buy another computer, but this is still a solution. Also frustrating that Zero learns so quickly and Brutus doesn't seem to learn at all.

I have tried clicking/treating him for having four on the floor before. I did that for about a week and saw no progress. I had forgotten about that when I posted earlier. I'm willing to try clicking/treating for jumping off my counters. It's one thing I haven't tried and I don't see it making things worse.

a week?

Hulk...dog training is a labor of love and a lesson in patience. With some dogs...it just doesn't happen that fast.

Brutus's previous situation and the length of time he's been in that situation indicates he may be one of those dogs.

Don't abandon a method because it doesn't work after a week's time. Take a look instead at what exactly you do when you try a method..

for instance...with clicker training, a common failing people have is timing.

When do you give the c/t? Do you do it after he has completed the desired behavior? because it should be during his execution of the desired behavior

like if you are clicking for a sit...you click as the dog's bum is headed towards the floor. click for active behavior..not the end result of the behavior.

im not saying you aren't doing it correctly..I'm suggesting taking a closer look at what's going on...the above example is just that...an example and not specific to you.

Ask yourself "Why isn't it working?" and "What can I do to adapt this to make it work?" before you abandon an idea totally.

you are a computer tech. I know you had to have some mathematical instruction in there..think about what you are doing, logically.

if a+b isn't equaling c when you plug in the numbers...perhaps a different numerical value is in order..

You CAN do it.

[sheltiemom]

Maybe you should consider just managing the situation? Is there a pantry you could put the trash in or inside a kitchen cabinet with a baby lock? My trash is in the pantry personally, it's not a training failure, just one less thing to worry about. For the counter, bitter apple spray maybe?

[GottaLuvMutts]

Wow, sounds like you've got a stubborn one! Sorry I can't offer great advice like these other folks - I'm still a novice myself. I do like bitter apple, though!

The last time Kit was left home alone out of her crate, she decided to do some counter surfing - her style. Unfortunately, this wasn't the normal kind of surfing with two paws on the counter. Instead, she managed to get her whole self up there. Serves me right for rescuing a BC. For the life of me I have no idea how she accomplished this, cause the kitchen is tiny - no opportunity for a running start. The only way I knew she'd been up there at all was cause she had shed some hair into the sink and had been licking a few breakfast dishes. So gross!

And the trash? I thought I was *so smart* putting it in a cabinet. Nope, she learned to open the cabinet, latch and all. So I bought a baby lock and installed it. I was sure that would do the trick. Still no; the cabinets are connected below, so she just crawled in through a different one and followed her nose. Sometimes I think she's too smart for her own good. The other day I caught her using her dew claws like opposable thumbs!

Good luck with Brutus, and keep us updated on any progress. Just think how rewarding it will be when he's well trained! That day will come.

[KBLover]

Originally Posted by hulkamaniac

How so? He doesn't seem interested in eating the trash. He tips it, sniffs through it, then goes on his way. I think he's just curious what's in there. I'm open to any suggestions though.

Try to Premack it.

He wants to see in the trash can? He has to sit. When he does, take something out and let him sniff it, then put it away somewhere.

He wants it (or something else)? Have him do another command, maybe lie down.

Or, heck, if he sits, let him have at the trash can. The whole thing. Or that could be a jackpot reward. But he has to sit first. I've read somewhere, might have been in CU, that giving a dog what they want this way can make them "want it less" (I think it's more that they hone in on you since you've made yourself the key to getting what they want).

I know this is true with Wally so I've stopped "disallowing" things (he got like a kid - I tell him to stay away, he's looking up at it like "I wonder what's up there"), but instead make him give me something before he can go jump on the pillows or sniff the sheets for 20 mintues, or get his dinner.

[Cracker]

When I was working with the resource guarder, the key to the lure and reward was the sit and then reward. This prevents the dog from understanding the reward comes for the jump up/get off...and instead is for sitting on the floor.
To prevent too much confusion, Zim's suggestion of shaping is not the same thing as the lure and sit, so her routine could work as well. But a dog that is not "clicker savvy" or feels excessive stress on shaping (like my dog..she finds shaping very hard) often does better not shaping it. It all depends.
We FINALLY managed a shaping a two foot stand on a book but it took MONTHS, her history of punishment prevented her from wanting to offer a new behaviour, even after having her for over a year. Slow and steady.

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

I thought shaping might do well because Brutus appears to be a dog that is motivated by end result of a behavior.

But in thinking about it...He might do even better combing the two..lure/reward AND shaping.


like Id probably use Cracker's lure/reward scheme. and at other times...Work on things like click for a sit etc. and then when he's gotten some general behavior via the click..move the clicker stuff into the kitchen.

just a thought...may work..may not...never know until you try.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by hulkamaniac

Wvasko is more than welcome to come and work with this dog. I'll e-mail him a key to my house so he can let himself in whenever he pleases.

I will not be building on to my counters. That idea is ridiculous to me. I just hate problems I can't solve. I'm a computer tech by trade. There is not a single computer problem I cannot solve. Sometimes the solution is to format the hard drive and start over from scratch, but that does solve the problem. Sometimes the solution is to just buy another computer, but this is still a solution. Also frustrating that Zero learns so quickly and Brutus doesn't seem to learn at all.

I have tried clicking/treating him for having four on the floor before. I did that for about a week and saw no progress. I had forgotten about that when I posted earlier. I'm willing to try clicking/treating for jumping off my counters. It's one thing I haven't tried and I don't see it making things worse.

Hulk
Look at it this way, this Bassett is going to teach you much more about dogs than 10 easy dogs will. I do understand the love your dog routine that posters have mentioned but as I used to tell my son when he would do something extremely stupid(just normal teen-age stuff) I love you but right now I just don't like you very much. This Bassett has been a problem right from the start of your stays together and it's very hard to get in a dog love affair when that happens. If I had to work this dog, there would be little work going on aside from eliminating trash from area. You can forget about any large successes with this dog just work on success for you.(more dog knowledge) A dog this age with the health problems he has can't be worked, possibly he can be adjusted, compromised with etc and just make life easy for him. You have had some excellent advice on thread to try and just have fun with. If you were on vacation for 60 years, maybe 10 years in dog's life(you mentioned he didn't do much in his earlier life) and then "somebody" wanted to change your lifestyle by making you do things you have never done before(learn) OH! also you have come down with some severe life threatening illness and you can't explain to the "somebody" who is in charge of your life now the pain/discomfort you are feeling. Hulk I know, you know all these things so relax and go with the flow. 10 years down the road you're going to think back on this and even though this dog is a pain in the butt, you are gonna have very good memories because you took him in and were patient enough to handle his problems. Trust me on this many would not have accepted this problem dog.