[Mac'N'Roe]

Originally Posted by Marsh Muppet

Harsh/gentle are relative terms that--outside obvious extremes--mean little. Enough/not-enough are merely working levels of correction for an individual dog. What may be too "harsh" for your dog may not even get a different dog's attention. You want to apply just enough correction to effect a change in behavior. More than that is excessive force. Less than that is harassment.

Oh okay, I got it. When you said 'enough/not enough' I was thinking in terms of numbers (go figure, its the scientist in me)...rather than in 'working levels of correction'.

Originally Posted by wvasko

dog that does work only for treats as stated above is in trouble in an emergency situation where no treats are handy.(pick your own emergency)

I completely agree and am fully aware of this issue....and quite frankly has been bothering me.

So, let me ask you this. If I were to employ using the prong collar more effectively (one on one walks with them ... and effectively administering a proper correction)...would this translate into having more verbal control over the dog when off-leash? like in an emergency situation? What type of aversive techniques are used off-leash? (I don't get national geographic channel..so I have never seen Cesar) How do I take them to the next step? I've gotten them this far...well behaved in the home....Now what?

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Mac'N'Roe

Oh okay, I got it. When you said 'enough/not enough' I was thinking in terms of numbers (go figure, its the scientist in me)...rather than in 'working levels of correction'.



I completely agree and am fully aware of this issue....and quite frankly has been bothering me.

So, let me ask you this. If I were to employ using the prong collar more effectively (one on one walks with them ... and effectively administering a proper correction)...would this translate into having more verbal control over the dog when off-leash? like in an emergency situation? What type of aversive techniques are used off-leash? (I don't get national geographic channel..so I have never seen Cesar) How do I take them to the next step? I've gotten them this far...well behaved in the home....Now what?

That would be putting the cart before the horse, don't worry about off lead work before you are satisfied with on lead work. Think about what you are asking, you haven't been able to use aversives on lead yet. One thing I find curious is many posters have mentioned the self-correcting powers of the prong collar. I have not seen much of that. Not saying that it's not happening, just I haven't seen it. If that's true it means a metal object and your dog is in charge of training program. How about a three way partnership with the goal of eliminating one of the partners down the road.

[animalsafe]

"would this translate into having more verbal control over the dog when off-leash? like in an emergency situation? "

M&R unfortunately there are not many sources that I have found that explain the process in detail on how one might use a prong collar in a comprehensive manner. It seems one can find bits and pieces of various processes at best as I have yet to find a good all around on-line explaination/description . This is why many if not most people have little clue as to the possibilties in a training/conditioning scheme in the use of a prong collar which also lends to misconceptions and misinformation or lack thereof about this "tool". This is one of the reasons it may be nec or important to have someone with years of expertise explain and most importantly show/guide you. It did not take me long to realize that reading a book or getting info on line was not the best way to learn how to use a prong collar effectively for a host of reasons and issues with my dog.

In a attempt to answer your question however and I will be as unbiased and honest as possible and will not mix words like most will in this regard, once you have a understanding of how correction based conditioning works ...WHICH IS THE METHOD....(positive punishment,aversives,force training,flooding,ect to include understanding what a correction "IS" then things become easier to understand when using a .....TOOL....

Far too often people fail to realize the importance of distinguishing or understanding the method verses the tool and/or either become reliant on the tool and cannot move forward without "IT" which is a common problem.

So with that said IMHO,understanding, and perspective one can/should in many cases use a process of verbal association or commands along with teaching or conditioning a dog to a specific and times general boundary understanding to behavior. One of many examples in conditioning a boundary with correction based condtioning (method) using a prong collar (tool) along with verbal association would go something like this.. Teaching the dog to WAIT.


1. with prong collar properly fitted walk slowly towards a door with dog in the heel position and once a few steps in front of the door say the word "WAIT" in a calm voice and give the dog a leash check (only after the verbal command and not before) so that the dog preferrably stops or second best sits.

2. turn around and repeat this excercise a few time moving towards the door slowly and calmly saying the word "wait" and giving a leash check that results in the dog stopping/sitting.

3. After several cycles the dog will hopefully understand that when you come to this doorway it will be expected and required to adjust it's behavior accordingly.

4. Once the dog appears to get it, then add the distraction of reaching towards the door to open it and saying the word wait (or any word you should choose for the association) and give the dog a collar check and repeat this element a few times.

NOTE: It is important IMU (in my understanding) that you/one should never pull and drag the leash allowing a steady dragging type tension when using a prong collar thus making the information and tool less or non effective.
Any collar correction should have a slow or fast snap/pop with just enough intensity for the circumstance and not overdone.(which is a skillset in itself).

5. once the dog is in the state of mind where it appears to actually begin to expect hearing the wait command and adjusts it's behavior on it's own or when you say the worf "WAIT" you then approach the door /move your hand to open it then you repeat the exercise and this time push the door open saying the word "wait" and giving the dog a collar/leash check should it not wait..

ALWAYS GIVE THE DOG TIME TO RESPOND TO YOUR VERBAL BEFORE USING A CORRECTION!!!!!! LET THE DOG HAVE A CHANCE TO MAKE THE PROPER CHOICE IN NOT INVITING A CORRECTION>>>
DO NOT TEACH THE DOG THAT IT IS GOING TO GET A CORRECTION SIMPLY BY GOING TOWARDS THE DOORWAY.


DO NOT GO THRU THE DOORWAY AT THIS STAGE.You may need only a mild collar check or possible more should the open door excite more disregard to your verbal command. Never raise your voice,sound level, tone, or emotion when given verbal commands and never over correct but most importantly try not to under correct.. Obtaining correction levels is not only a science but a art in my opinion...


6. At this point turn around and repeat the exercise which in effect will hopefully teach the dog that just because you approach a doorway or open the door that does not mean that you will be going out/moving thru the doorway. The repetition will hopefully condition the dog to wait for your cue/command before proceeding thru the doorway. This is where the value of having trained a heel command comes in otherwise you can just use a verbal cue such as "lets go" before proceeding thr the doorway. This is where the added condtioning of turning around and going back thru the same door a few times further teaches the dog not to anticipate or expect getting somewhere and making decisions on it's own....

This is just a basic example and as you can see one can add or subtract elements in the process accordingly yet some are important I believe if not critical especially for voice command response and understanding.

Using a process like this should result in your dog responding to the voice command "WAIT" in just one session for this doorway. You may/must then move on to repeating this exercise at different doorways to condition the dog for a more general response understanding. Never become predictable in the training phase to proof the dogs understanding and condition the dog you might just go thru a doorway and then again you might not, you might turn back around immediately once you go thru and again you might not.

Hopefully this gives you a general idea of the concept of proofing the understanding and as you can see the details are many..

For your consideration some of the things that I have taught my dog to do with a high standard to compliance using this method and tool are.

1. Sit/stay under heavy distractions
2. walk on a loose leash and do not pull against it. under heavy distractions
3. heel by my side slow or fast. under heavy distractions
4. do not jump up (on people or things) unless invited or directed to do so. (OFF COMMAND) also used as the cue/command for the dog to jump down or off of another platform or space such as the sofa,porch,bed,ect.
5. wait while walking (WAIT COMMAND)under heavy distractions
6. Stop focusing on or responding to a object,sound,light,person,cat,squirl,animal,thing, ect. (LEAVE IT COMMAND)
7. Down/stay under heavy distractions
8. Come/recall..under intense heavy distractions
9. mount or jump up (UP COMMAND)
10. do not put teeth on human flesh (STOP)
ect

There are so many different approaches in any given process and others would I am sure have a different take on what they would or would not do in any case when using a prong collar or correction based condtioning .. It seems very few people use a prong collar or the method in the same way HENCE the reason why all the gray matter when attempting to come to a general agreement,description, or understanding in how,why, when, and where to use this tool in my opinion. ADD to the formula the benefit (when done so in the proper process) to mixing positive reinforcement in the formula and you have a very powerful,reliable,and for some complex conditioning option.

Kind of sounds like what we Humans experience

cheers

[Marsh Muppet]

I won't get into a lot of detail about off-leash work as it is not relevant to you now. There are many ways to accomplish the same end result.

Positive/reward based training relies on a dog acting in his self interest to obtain a reward. Through habituation and reinforcement, you can develop a reliable response even in the face of distractions.

Balanced compulsion based training offers the dog a choice. The dog's self interest is served by obtaining a reward and/or avoiding punishment. To get a dog working off-leash involves incremental steps toward that goal. There are different techniques and tools you can employ, but the best methods involve treachery. You cause the dog to believe he is beyond the grasp of the long arm of the law when you, in fact, still retain the ability to reach out and touch him. Even if the dog eventually gets on to your scam (and the smart ones may), his lack of confidence in his ability to predict your capacity to issue a correction should be enough to cause the dog to default to familiar (and safe) patterns of training.

[Mac'N'Roe]

Thank you animalsafe for your description of how to use it more effectively..not just on walks. Thus far, I've only used the prong collar for walks. For all other training, I've used positive reinforcent primarily to date with verbal corrections.

As an update, I did make an effort to correctly employ the use of the prong collar today on a 45 minute walk with both dogs together. The neighbors had kids over playing, so I wanted to get them out and about...so I didn't have to watch the kids play and the dogs could be outside getting excercise. I think all three of you will be proud.

I must admit that within 50 feet, I had two dogs walking perfectly with a loose leash and by my side, and this continued throught the 3 mile walk. It took two corrections for Roe...and she was perfect for the rest of the walk. Mac pushed it a little more. There was no pulling (or slight tension on the leash), but he would tend to walk ahead of me more. The only correction (after the first initial two) I had to make was for him being out of position. I paired the correction with a verbal command letting him know he was 'too far' and used the verbal command a little later in the walk. It worked well.

As far as the prong collar being useful with off-leash training...I was kind of kidding, as I do understand that walking by my side on a prong collar will NOT make them automatically behave off-leash. he he. But I really appreciate the feedback.

Marsh Muppet - I guess this is where the e-collar comes into play. Any other methods out there besides this one?

I think Mac's threshold is higher than Roe's. We encountered several dogs. No pulling, but I did make them sit and distracted with 'watch me's' while the other dogs passed. Mac goes into a stare at other dogs...and if we are moving...i am having trouble getting his attention. He doesn't lunge or growl or anything...UNLESS the other dog stares back or growls or challenges him.

[wvasko]

You do not need an e-collar for off lead work.

[Mac'N'Roe]

Originally Posted by wvasko

You do not need an e-collar for off lead work.

That's good to know

[Marsh Muppet]

E-collars have a number of advantages over other tools, but I'm of the opinion that you should be able to get a dog working off-leash the old fashioned way before relying on technology. I also believe one should be able to operate a standard transmission, read a paper map, change a tire, and pump one's own gasoline before getting a license to operate a motor vehicle. That's just me though.

[Mac'N'Roe]

Originally Posted by Marsh Muppet

E-collars have a number of advantages over other tools, but I'm of the opinion that you should be able to get a dog working off-leash the old fashioned way before relying on technology. I also believe one should be able to operate a standard transmission, read a paper map, change a tire, and pump one's own gasoline before getting a license to operate a motor vehicle. That's just me though.

I completely agree with you there...and...I CAN do all those things. I can even triangulate on a paper map using a compass. So, what is the old fashioned method that you prefer? Remember, I'm completely green to dogs and dog training. While I'm very proud of how much work I've done with them so far, and I think they are doing fantastic...I'm trying to determine how to take it to the next level.

[Moker]

great thread!

i love the advice given and the interaction on everyone's part.

if you don't mind, i'd like to ask for some help/advice in this thread, as i don't want to make a new one asking roughly the same thing (with some minor or possibly major differences).
Bismarck does great with the prong collar on, he pulls a little, realizes it is uncomfortable, then gets back to my pace.
on a flat collar he tends to pull more.

my dillema is with only 3 legs, if i jog with him he stays right in step with me. walking with him is difficult on him, because i'm going too slow, and he has to walk abnormally.
i'm wondering if i should continue working on his leash training, when he does great at the jogging/trotting speed. I'd love for him to "walk" at my pace, even a fast walk, but that's still a little bit too slow for him, and i can see him struggling to walk/slow down.

[animalsafe]

"As far as the prong collar being useful with off-leash training...I was kind of kidding, as I do understand that walking by my side on a prong collar will NOT make them automatically behave off-leash. he he. But I really appreciate the feedback. "

M&R The prong collar can be ( and I feel should be if one is going to use one) used as a tool as part of a method in a process (either singularly or in addition to the use of positive reinforcement in a process) that can assist in conditioning/effecting behavior while off leash and just as with using reinforcers singularly there are no guarentees that any particular method/tool will do so to ones standards for any particular dog.

Again the tool is not the method as I and others always speak of... as the tool should be/and can be used as part of a training process to training/conditioning off leash beavior.
The answer to your question is yes the prong collar can be useful with off-leash training.

The intial phase of using the prong collar as part of a formulated training process rather than simply a management tool is to condition the dog to a association to a behavior,boundary, or command and is usually done with a regular leash attached. It is how one uses the prong collar along with the method that can certainly translate to off leash behavior both favorable or unfavorable.
This is why it is so important/critical to effectively attach verbal or other cues in the condtioning/training process and it is about the details in that process that make the difference. For example once a dog is taught by the use of minor leash checks on the collar and other cues while walking to remain at the heel position and not forge ahead the dog should hopefully learn to self regulate/adjust position without the need for the leash checks in a properly regimented training process.


Again and I cannot say it enough this is why the details to any process is so important in making a difference as to what a dog learns/or does not learn from the use of a prong collar in a training regiment as it is simply more than slapping on the collar and jerking the dogs neck. A well experienced and skilled handler has a big bag of tricks in this regard to accomplish the goal and offer up needed adjustments that might be needed for any particular issue.

Many times for example it can be more effective to teach a dog the sit/stay standards under heavy/intense distractions using a prong collar before ever starting the loose leash or heeling training in a building block or foundation conditioning scheme. It also is highly beneficial in the heeling process to include the association to verbal cues (only) when beginning the advance heeling exercises. For example the dog can be/should be taught to never begin the heel untill the command is given and the handler begins to move forward regardless of any movement by the handler otherwise.. There are so many little detailed processes that can be beneficial, important, and sometimes critical to learning reliable on leash and off leash behavior.

With the use of slight wrist flicks as the dog even starts to forge ahead while walking the dog can learn to stay in perfect heel position when walking and then the prong collar is no longer needed simply by learning a association to the leash action rather than aversive discomfort from the prong collar.
When you get to a point of never/seldom having tension on the leash change to a really thin light leash so that the dog does not feel the weight of a leash and practice letting the leash drop at times while heeling. If you have a large dog and are using a heavier medium to large size prong collar you can reduce the weight/size of the prong collar to the smaller size links. People actually start out with a small size prong collar for a more custom fit and smaller foot print because they prefer to have less evil looking bling bling on thier dog besides the advantages a smaller link size may/or may not offer in controlling correction values. Keep in mind that a dog can easily learn to be collar smart if you do not/or do certain things in your conditioning process.


If one walks a straight path for considerable distances with a steady pace this also helps the dog self regulate position and can play a important process in graduating to off leash heeling. There are so many small details in a process that can benifit the learning is my point. More directly in reference to your question of using the prong collar off leash is that I can think of many situations where a full leash does not have to be used in certain cases to continued use of the prong collar as a training/condtioning tool. One can use a short piece of leash that just hangs off of the collar and does not touch the ground so that the handler does not have to be constantly in tether mode to deliver a collar check. If you feel a need to give information to the dog with use of the prong collar you do not need a leash if your skillset is such that you simply grasp the end of the collar chain and give information.

If the dog is trained properly with the use of a prong collar in most cases a light collar check on a regular collar should suffice. The goal in my opinion and desire when using a prong collar as a tool along with the method of using (positive punishment) is to do so in a manner that CLEARLY<QUICKLY< FAIRLY<WITH CONSISTANCY<AND THUS RELIABLY teaches the dog my desires/expectations/standards/wants/needs to behavior in a manner that results in a dog that has a great deal of self control and confidence in the realtionship and gives me the benefit of verbal/physical cues both on leash and more importantly off leash. I often refer to the goal is in developing a mental leash.

Another BONUS value of course is when you throw in/include positive reinforcement (rewards,treats,motivators.effection,ect) there is no limit as to what your dog can be when all is done so with a proper process and balance.

cheers

[wvasko]

M&R


When you get to a point of never/seldom having tension on the leash change to a really thin light leash so that the dog does not feel the weight of a leash and practice letting the leash drop at times while heeling.

Animalsafe is throwing some good advice, just some additional thoughts. The 1st thin lead can be the thinnest nylon cord you can find with the smallest dog snap that will fit on the prong for lightness or if you have 2 prongs instead of a snap you can just tie to 2nd prong collar when ready to switch. I first like to work dog with regular lead with other lead snapped to collar dragging it so dog becomes acquainted with the dragging lead. The dragging lead need only be 3 ft long or longer depending on your reflexes, you can then unsnap your regular lead when you think dog is ready and start working with the dragging lead, decelerate size of leads to 2 ft lead, 1 ft lead, 6 to 8 inch (what I call handle type)lead and also check sport fishing for some very strong fish filament which is almost invisible and weight free to fool or brainwash the dog to assume there is nothing on neck. As I said did not mean to interfere and you probably knew this stuff but I do like to confuse the issues.

[Mac'N'Roe]

No, thank you wvasko. This is great information. I really appreciate the feedback and it gives me a direction to head into...as I can see my dogs are getting bored with the same ole stuff. It's time to move forward...and I really appreciate the direction.

"As I said did not mean to interfere and you probably knew this stuff but I do like to confuse the issues"

Nope, didn't know that stuff. This is great info...I've got two 'tab collars' which I think are about a foot leather tabs...maybe not even. But I wouldn't consider them light...and they both are on the smallest prong..and I added links...so I think we have the lightest version of the sprenger prong

[wvasko]

Yes there is a lot of nickle-dime stuff to fetch and experiment with and what I like about it compared to the e-collar is that it's hands on stuff. Most of this is a one time build and can be saved and used on other dogs in the future. I personally think it's fun.

[Marsh Muppet]

There are many different ways to reach the goal. I incorporate the tab collar before transitioning from the 6' lead to the light line. I also let him drag the light line for a time while still using the 6 footer. The dog being used to the weight of the tab seems to make him less likely to notice the light line dragging behind him.

Doing this "Amish style" a time or two will (I think) give you a better handle on what you are actually doing. It requires you to think it through more completely. However, the e-collar has real benefits for the dog and not just the trainer. The ability to issue a correction at the precise time the dog refuses the command makes it far less likely you will confuse him. The repeatability of duration and level of corrections is useful too. I believe a sit/nick/sit is less mentally stressful for the dog than waiting while Daddy storms a hundred yards out to where the dog is at.

The other point is that you should thoroughly proof the dog's on-leash training before transitioning to off-leash work. It's a common mistake to move too soon to the next step, and then be flummoxed by the dog rampaging out of control.

[animalsafe]

"The other point is that you should thoroughly proof the dog's on-leash training before transitioning to off-leash work. It's a common mistake to move too soon to the next step, and then be flummoxed by the dog rampaging out of control."

I agree as if the dog is not reliable on leash it would more than likely be less reliable off leash I believe.

On the issue of corrections and all the possible ways in which to administer information I think that there are advantages to both in the dog knowing where/from whom the correction came from and in other situations a benefit/advantage in the dog recieving a correction by remote /external means. Why not use the best of all possibilities is my motto.

So much great stuff being mentioned I believe on the use of a prong collar and corrections and we have not even touched on most/many of the details to various processes and possibilities...Someone needs to write a book or make a video to compile a comprehensive resource on all the ways in which to use a prong collar for any given issue... I would buy it!!!

cheers

[Mac'N'Roe]

Well, I have determined one thing. I will only be using positive methods of training on Roe. Perhaps Mac too, but we'll see how I progress. Roe is WAY too sensitive to aversive methods. A simple 'eh-eh' (verbal aversive) is enough for her, even too much of that or too stern will cause her to shut down. She gets way too stressed and shuts down. On the other hand, bring out a clicker and put her in work mode...very positive voice..and she responds much better.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Mac'N'Roe

Well, I have determined one thing. I will only be using positive methods of training on Roe. Perhaps Mac too, but we'll see how I progress. Roe is WAY too sensitive to aversive methods. A simple 'eh-eh' (verbal aversive) is enough for her, even too much of that or too stern will cause her to shut down. She gets way too stressed and shuts down. On the other hand, bring out a clicker and put her in work mode...very positive voice..and she responds much better.

M&R
Did something happen?

[Mac'N'Roe]

Originally Posted by wvasko

M&R
Did something happen?

NOOOO, nothing happened. I just know my dog. She is very sensitive and even when just training her with positive methods...she shuts down if I am too assertive with my voice or even begin to get the slightest bit frustrated. She will avert my gaze, turn her head, lick lips and just really...shut down.

Yesterday I was doing my usual flirt pole/fetch game (I play flirt with mac and fetch with Roe at the same time). All off leash, and Mac will sit/wait or down/wait until my verbal cue to chase. Then we DROP IT...he is great at it.

Roe brings the ball to me when we are between flirt turns and joins the flirt chase as wel. Roe would always just take off for the ball, so a few weeks ago I began to implement some training with the fetch as the reward. She's gotten to where she will come/sit and wait patiently for the throw. I have also tried to offer a food reward for this, and she just stared at the ball completely fixated (i should probably work on watch me with this too). I tried to get a down out of her...nothing. Used food, nothing.

So, I took her inside...with the clicker and food...DOWN. Okay, so she hasn't generalized the down as part of the fetch game. I can do this. I decided to put on the prong collars with my tab to help control them both (they were off-leash and Mac tends to jump in my way when working with Roe). I put mac in a stay and worked with Roe. I asked her for a down with the clicker and food, yes..got a down. Down with the ball as reward, no clicker, just a stare. I took the tab in my hand with NO correction just in my hand...and guided her...she went down. So, I guess it was successful...but she was anxious. Licking her lips and I could tell she was uncomfortable. I'm just nervous about affecting our relationship.

I don't know if you remember this...but I once asked Roe off of a chair (first time I had to do this) and sat down and put the legs out...Roe was frightened by the movement of the chair and wouldn't come in the same room with me for a month. If I have food, she goes in the other room (which I don't mind ). In my eyes (uneducated as far as dog psycology goes)...She seems to be very sensitive to my role as alpha female in the house. Or, just very dramatic (just like a woman heh)

granted, I gave her several additional turns and she came right back to me no problem and that evening she was more snuggly with me than usual. So, I guess it wasn't an issue. I'm just nervous about any ramifications of using an aversive method with her.

Mac, on the other hand, can handle it. Does this make sense?

[animalsafe]

M&R as I love challenges when it comes to training both the human and dog soI tried to step back and take another look at your issues in order to put a finger on your problem with finding something that I might further suggest in your training formula/approach. There is something that is quite confusing and problematic to me and I just cannot put my finger on it when I read back over the comments/information that you have provided on your issues so far. I am wondering what others might think after reading this compilation????

Is there something I am missing?

...............................................
“When we began Stage I Obedience (with Roe) the trainer recommended a prong coller (sprenger) to me as an option for helping with the pulling (rather than teaching me how to get them to actually do it on a flat collar).”

“Okay, well I've made the conscious decision to try to phase out the prong collar for Mac'n'Roe. I'd like to get to the point where I can walk them both on a flat collar on a loose leash.”

“While the prong did work tremendously, I have seen some faults with it as well. For example, I don't administer a harsh leash correction (i just don't like to), and they tend to walk at the end of the leash at all times. And if there is REALLY something they want to get at..they pull anyway. They don't pull me down the street during walks, but they do walk at the end of the leash with some tension on the leash and it can drive me CRAZY.”

“SOOOOOOOOOOOOO, today...i officially started loose leash walking training. I took both of them out and here's how it went.”

“Mac - He did GREAT. He walked on a loose leash in heel position all the way around the block no problems (on a flat collar). The only time he pulled was when two women were up ahead talking and he wanted to go and greet them. I tried to work with that several times while they were busy talking, but we didn't ever get all the way to them successfully.”

“Roe - she was a nightmare. PULLING like a freight train. I didn't get one step without her pulling like crazy. But, I was consistent and also tried the turn around method. Once she got into position, I clicked, treated and praised heavily. I had to do the turn around about three times and then clicked when she was in position...and I was then able to get her up the hill and back in perfect position. However, we had no distractions and I was clicking, treating and praising pretty much the whole time.”

“
Mac Mac was already trained to heel (full heel with him looking at me)...so he knew the concept already...and he was a dream. It just doesn't happen consistently with both of them walking together. He tends to move ahead with Roe. On the flat collar, I am little concerned of when we encounter another dog. He seems to be a little leash reactive if another dog looks at us in a certain way. If the other dog averts their gaze, it's no problem. If the other dog is staring..or stands facing us (challenging)..he reacts. I typically handle this with turning him around and moving in the opposite direction, putting him in a sit and get him to watch me. As long as he isn't moving forward, I can get him to focus on me, rather than the dog. It works well.”

“Roe, doesn't typically react too much to other dogs..just looks (unless it's her buddy Elliot in which she will pull like a train to greet him enthusiastically LOL) ..so I'm dealing with two completely opposite dogs. My challenge with her is to get her full attention, rather than smelling every blade of grass . The turn around on the flat collar worked well with her, but it sounds like I was approaching it differently than you. Rather than giving a correction (at the end of the leash - even if a self correction), I was focusing on the positive reinforcement when she DID get into position. If she moved ahead of me, I just turned around...but she didn't necessarily get to the end of the leash (giving a correction).

“Not sure what a starmark collar is. I was considering going with a martingale...which is probably what I'll do.”
“I completely understand that the fault of the prong collar in my case...is not a flaw of the design of the collar in general. It's just not working for me, because I don't really like administering the harsh correction. First off, I was never shown by a trainer as to what was an appropriate correction in the first place. I KNOW I am administering the 'nagging' pull that isn't even close to being at the threshold of the dogs. Therefore it isn't working for me.

I administered ONE correction (a couple of months ago)...that perhaps could have been closer to the threshold and I did see a difference. I'm just not real comfortable with it.”
“I have two dogs (littermates) that are 16 months old boxer/lab/pit mixes. I have spent the better part of those 16 months doing research on almost every aspect of dog ownership. I've had one accident (potty accident) with them, they have both been through obedience training, they have both been to agility training, rally-o training, etc. I have verbal control of them at the house (i cannot claim this outside of the home)...When walking down the street, any Joe Schmo that has a dog would see my dogs as walking 'perfectly' on the leash. They (most of the time) walk with a slight bit of tension (slight tension...very slight) or with a little slack in the leash. It is more of a frustration for me..because I want them to be perfect (walking right next to me with a lot of slack).

They are well behaved, they have great focus, I have learned how to communicate with the two of them individually (as they require very different training methods). The reason I'm saying this is because I want you to realize that I have put an extreme amount of time, work, effort and research into my dogs...more than most people would do for all the dogs in their lifetime.”
“I was never taught how to appropriately use the tool. I was completely green when it was recommended to me by my obedience trainer (she's not there anymore)...and unfortunately it was fitted..but not much more. It seems pretty intuitive how it works, without the research ”

“I'll consider your suggestion closely and maybe ask my trainer to work with me personally. I am in close contact with the training facility that I have been using and will actually be bringing Mac and/or Roe to a class there soon”
“I consider myself to be a good dog trainer (as I do think some people are natural at it...some just aren't) and I was lucky enough to have the knack.”
“Mac is 'treat dependent' meaning..he knows if I have a treat..and will not always obey if he thinks I don't have a reward handy. I need to work on that. In fact, I keep a list of things I want to 'work on' with the dogs. I work/play with my dogs daily..and am consistently learning from them (what works, what doesn't).”
“So, let me ask you this. If I were to employ using the prong collar more effectively (one on one walks with them ... and effectively administering a proper correction)...would this translate into having more verbal control over the dog when off-leash?”
“How do I take them to the next step? I've gotten them this far...well behaved in the home....”
“Thus far, I've only used the prong collar for walks. For all other training, I've used positive reinforcent primarily to date with verbal corrections.”
“As an update, I did make an effort to correctly employ the use of the prong collar today on a 45 minute walk with both dogs together. The neighbors had kids over playing, so I wanted to get them out and about...so I didn't have to watch the kids play and the dogs could be outside getting excercise. I think all three of you will be proud.”
“must admit that within 50 feet, I had two dogs walking perfectly with a loose leash and by my side, and this continued throught the 3 mile walk. It took two corrections for Roe...and she was perfect for the rest of the walk. Mac pushed it a little more. There was no pulling (or slight tension on the leash), but he would tend to walk ahead of me more. The only correction (after the first initial two) I had to make was for him being out of position. I paired the correction with a verbal command letting him know he was 'too far' and used the verbal command a little later in the walk. It worked well.”
“I think Mac's threshold is higher than Roe's. We encountered several dogs. No pulling, but I did make them sit and distracted with 'watch me's' while the other dogs passed. Mac goes into a stare at other dogs...and if we are moving...i am having trouble getting his attention.”
“
I'm completely green to dogs and dog training. While I'm very proud of how much work I've done with them so far, and I think they are doing fantastic...I'm trying to determine how to take it to the next level.”
“Well, I have determined one thing. I will only be using positive methods of training on Roe. Perhaps Mac too, but we'll see how I progress. Roe is WAY too sensitive to aversive methods. A simple 'eh-eh' (verbal aversive) is enough for her, even too much of that or too stern will cause her to shut down. She gets way too stressed and shuts down. On the other hand, bring out a clicker and put her in work mode...very positive voice..and she responds much better.”


GOOD LUCK! I hope you find a trainer that will properly guide you as I think that is one of the many problems I feel from all of this ....there are many others but I do not feel that my comments/suggestions would help at this point..

cheers