Opinions

Billiie · 02-17-2009, 03:22 PM

What do you find more harmful: Prong collars or GL's/Halti's?

Of course both can cause damage if used improperly and poorly.. but overall, with the average owner, what tool can inflict more damage on the dog physiologically and physically?

I know Gentle Leaders can cause spine/neck problems, and prongs can also cause neck injuries, but I cannot find valid information on which one can actually do more/severe damage.

Also, I am pro prong collars.. I use them on both my dogs, and I do know how to use them properly.. I just do not know a lot about gentle leaders, but I have seen many situations where the dog lunged and his/her head was whipped back from this tool.. it was quite disturbing to see. I have never seen a dog hurt by a prong collar though, even when it was not fitted correctly.. But of course, in severe circumstances, there would be harm done no doubt. I just think there is more room for error on a GL because it needs to be fitted perfectly and used correctly in order to give comfort and safety to the dog.

So what is everyones views? And please expand on them to bring your point across.. Thank you

animalsafe · 02-17-2009, 03:30 PM

Along with that question I am curious also and would add into the equation of harm ...is it more harmful to the dog if it has to endure a expoentially longer period in the environment/any environment with a particular approach that is not conditioning behavior to a desired or exceptable level. For example is it more harmful to a dog if a xxxx approach takes months or even years to gain resolution verses ones that take but a few days or weeks?

cheers

skelaki · 02-17-2009, 03:33 PM

I think things like haltis and gentle leaders are more preventative than correction devices. As such they have their place. For example, when my mother was still able to walk her dogs (2 Tibetan Terriers), they'd pull her in different directions and my sister and I were concerned they could cause her to fall. We knew she'd never use training collars and would not properly train the dogs so we got head halters. They helped the situation enough to provide mother with safety and the dogs were ok because they are not hard pullers.

I think a properly used pinch collar is the most humane training collar out there. It's just the looks that are off puting. I know they were to me for a long time until I learned the theory behind them.

Marsh Muppet · 02-17-2009, 03:47 PM

From a strictly "body mechanics" perspective, a Gentle Leader seems to be far more dangerous. Potentially. A prong collar can puncture a dog's skin, but a GL could easily snap his neck. I'll go way out on a limb and guess that more serious injuries and death are associated with dogs riding in cars. Probably more than are caused by all common training devices--combined.

I don't personally know of a single injury caused by a Gentle Leader halter.

opokki · 02-17-2009, 04:32 PM

I'd say it depends on the person holding the other end of the leash. I've seen both tools misused but I'm not aware of any severe damage or injury caused by either.

zimandtakandgrrandmimi · 02-17-2009, 05:01 PM

depends on what type of thing you consider harmful.

harmful as in physical harm?
not sure

harmful as in unnecessary stress?
prong and GL have it tied IMO...situationally...

harmful as in potential for misuse?
prong hands down....simply because of the look of the thing and how young bucks think it makes them look tough to have a dog and jerk it around on a prong...

TooneyDogs · 02-17-2009, 05:52 PM

Medical exams/studies done in Europe showed an astonishing high rate of neck/spine injuries. In one test, 400 dogs were randomly selected from dog clubs. 60-80% had evidence of injury. The predominant training tool is choke chain.
Eye problems...specifically the pressure put on the internal eye from pushing against training collars....is a new concern.
BTW..on the prong collar....if you meant "properly fitted" as high up behind the ears...that position places the prongs directly over the nerve ganglia on both sides of the head. There's really no reason to put that kind of pressure on those nerve endings.
As the prong collar exerts 250psi there is no reason to put it over sensitive nerve endings.

animalsafe · 02-17-2009, 06:13 PM

Tooneydogs I have tried in vain to locate those studies, do you have any sources that I might look at to find that study?

thanks

cheers

txcollies · 02-17-2009, 06:15 PM

GL/Haltis.

TooneyDogs · 02-17-2009, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by animalsafe

Tooneydogs I have tried in vain to locate those studies, do you have any sources that I might look at to find that study?

thanks

cheers

Here's one that I found. http://www.larzequipment.com/neck_injuries.html
Take this one with a grain of salt as they sell equipment but, the studies they refer to can be found in the archives of Pet Behavior Rx. (www.webtrail.com)

Billiie · 02-17-2009, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

Medical exams/studies done in Europe showed an astonishing high rate of neck/spine injuries. In one test, 400 dogs were randomly selected from dog clubs. 60-80% had evidence of injury. The predominant training tool is choke chain.
Eye problems...specifically the pressure put on the internal eye from pushing against training collars....is a new concern.
BTW..on the prong collar....if you meant "properly fitted" as high up behind the ears...that position places the prongs directly over the nerve ganglia on both sides of the head. There's really no reason to put that kind of pressure on those nerve endings.
As the prong collar exerts 250psi there is no reason to put it over sensitive nerve endings.

Thank you for your post. Very informative.

I know my question was kind of odd.. but I was just wondering because my friend thinks GL's are a much safer tool.. and of course, they can be if used properly.. but I have seen some dogs lung and it just looks scary seeing the dogs head snap back.. and this can happen to anyones dog, even if it is positioned and tightened properly on the dog.. you have to always be aware of what your dog is doing with these head halters.

And of course prongs can be mis-used as well, no doubt... I see people all the time putting these devices on their dogs, and they loose, and the corrections they use are horrible.. but I find it less sever then a when a dog gets his head whip lashed back from the GL.... I dunno, or maybe I am seeing this all wrong.

But thank you everyone for your replies!

poodleholic · 02-18-2009, 05:10 AM

Quote:

I know Gentle Leaders can cause spine/neck problems, and prongs can also cause neck injuries, but I cannot find valid information on which one can actually do more/severe damage.

I'd really like to see valid information regarding spine/neck injuries resulting from the use of a Gentle Leader, especially stating it could "easily snap a neck!" Unless the handler did some very heavy-handed jerking the dog around, I don't see the GL as dangerous at all.

Maddy had some surgery, with drains put in, due to an abcess caused by a wound from a fight with a Raccoon, and the swelling included the area where her regular collar (flat buckle) sat, so, I got out her "fancy" Gentle Leader (red with embroidered hearts), as it sits high up on the neck under the ears. She thought she was "all that," LOL because she pranced around so proud of how pretty she was! There's no need for her to wear a GL for control, but, we do have leash laws, so had to put it on while we were out and about. She's never acted "shut down," nor did she object to wearing the GL when it was first introduced to her. The handler has a LOT to do with use or mis-use of any type of collar, including a flat buckle collar, which can also cause damage and injury.

Quote:

but I find it less sever then a when a dog gets his head whip lashed back from the GL.... I dunno, or maybe I am seeing this all wrong.

A correction, or tugging/jerking on the leash, should NEVER be done with a Gentle Leader. An ignorant handler can injure a dog regardless of the type of collar the dog is wearing, even a flat buckle collar, as I said earlier.

Marsh Muppet · 02-18-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poodleholic

I'd really like to see valid information regarding spine/neck injuries resulting from the use of a Gentle Leader, especially stating it could "easily snap a neck!" Unless the handler did some very heavy-handed jerking the dog around, I don't see the GL as dangerous at all.

I was speaking about the physics of the thing. Facts iz facts. If you know how to snap a neck (e.g., how to take out a sentry without a weapon) you can see that the GL bears directly on the weakest point in the spinal/cranial junction. Humans are more vulnerable to these stresses because we have much weaker neck muscles (my 75 lb. dog has the neck circumference of a human male of at least a 225 lbs.), but a weak point is a weak point.

I don't know of any injuries occurring from the use of a GL, but the potential is definitely there.

animalsafe · 02-18-2009, 09:49 AM

I would find it reasonable to believe that when considering the mechanics and construction of the GL (or any other tool/collar) it would be rather logical to assume that it could easily be and will be either by accident or intention misused by some or many in a way to cause injury to a dog. I have learned and I am sure others have also from discussion ,debate, and comment on the subject of training/management tools that regardless of how/why something was org designed to be used someone will use it for a different reason or use it differently for example the choke and prong collar.

I have read many testimonials about GL injury.

cheers

wvasko · 02-18-2009, 12:20 PM

As everybody probably knows I am avid prong collar user. I have trained one dog with the GL as a 9 month old Golden came in that had disc work done and I thought at that time the GL would be easier on the dog's back. The training went as planned and with this dog there were no problems. This is just one dog out of the two I used GL on, the other was a large young Dobe that was owned and started already with GL for walking and I did not want to confuse the issue with different collar. They are a pain in the butt to get on and adjusted but I believe easier on dog if your patient. It's much easier to take prong on and off.

pugmom · 02-18-2009, 12:44 PM

wvasko...do you have a picture of the kind of prong collar you use?....I've seen a few post that people have issues getting them on and off...I have not found mine to be a problem....I curious if mine is different

wvasko · 02-18-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugmom

wvasko...do you have a picture of the kind of prong collar you use?....I've seen a few post that people have issues getting them on and off...I have not found mine to be a problem....I curious if mine is different

I use the Herm Sprenger Prong same model that's been out there for years. just squeeze links to open and remove links for adjustment. They have a model with a snap that's a tad easier to use but sometimes when correcting dog the snap pops open.

Marsh Muppet · 02-18-2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugmom

....I've seen a few post that people have issues getting them on and off...I have not found mine to be a problem....I curious if mine is different

The prongs of the larger sizes collars are of a heavier gauge than the smaller ones.

pugmom · 02-18-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsh Muppet

The prongs of the larger sizes collars are of a heavier gauge than the smaller ones.

I don't have a small one....I would say its medium to large.

Yeah I have a different one...I have that quick release but I've never had it pop open because you have to squeeze it pretty tight for it to open.

JackieM · 02-18-2009, 05:43 PM

Like a few have said already. It really depends on the user. Even a plain nylon collar can cause harm if not used/fitted correctly. I tend to like the prong collars for really strong pullers. But the haltis/GL work pretty well too. It's becoming more of a personal choice, but others view the prong collars worse than haltis because it makes the dog look mean, or so i've heard from clients at our vet clinic. Then again some people that have never seen the haltis/GL think that they are muzzles, so who knows.