Cesar Millan (the dog whisperer)

jiml · 06-09-2009, 05:06 PM

I certainly wish I had seen this episode to see what CM actually did. Did he just lift the tail, or was there some CC/OC going on as well?>>>>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DZ1aqDK6Ik

FourIsCompany · 06-09-2009, 05:14 PM

jiml, I had never seen the "Persistence Pays Off" episode and I'm not talking about that episode. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLover

Did he just lift the tail, or was there some CC/OC going on as well?

Oh, yes, there was a lot of other input to the dog. The lifting of the tail was only one piece of the puzzle. The dog's name was Booker, a Vizsla. They had moved from the country and he was having a hard time adapting to the noise and hustle bustle of the city.

Cesar took him roller blading and that helped a lot. Then they went for a walk. Booker's tail was still between his legs, though, so Cesar looped the other end of the leash around Booker's tail and held the leash in the middle. (it looked like a doggie briefcase) His owner was amazed at the difference it made.

jiml · 06-09-2009, 05:42 PM

jiml, I had never seen that episode and I'm not talking about that episode. Sorry for the misunderstanding>>>

we are talking about the same episode I just was just showing that cesar truly believes this tail hooey.

Im sorry you can tell me how much better you thought the dog was. When I saw the episode I thaught it was hooey when I see the clip i think its hooey and I truelly cant see why anyone would believe this isnt hooey. Im starting to like that word LOL

peppy264 · 06-09-2009, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

You stated Jonbee would be an argument against adopting a shelter dog and for buying a puppy. Did Jonbee come out of thin air? Or was he too a puppy once?

You have a very odd (amusing) comprehension ability CP.

So as not to bore the others excessively I'll only comment on one of your little rebukes. I did not say that Jonbee was an arguement against adopting a shelter dog. I did say that the fact that a shelter put out such a sugar coated glowing description of him, while omitting so much of the negative parts of his history, in an effort to get him adopted was an arguement against adopting a shelter dog, as that sort of behavior by a shelter undermines the credibility of all shelters.

I would have expected a pro-shelter person to have taken equal offence to the description given by the shelter, argued that it was not indicative of shelter behavior, and claimed that in fact it would be highly unlikely that a shelter would let a dog like JonBee go home with a first time dog owner believing that he was taking home 'the sweetest dog in the world' without full disclosure and a very frank discussion of all the potential problems and challenges.

If I was running the shelter I would want the people adopting JonBee to get a complete picture of his background, good and bad, and I would not release him to anyone who did not have experience with dogs. I would not compromise people's safety, even for the sake of saving a dog.

Curbside Prophet · 06-09-2009, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peppy264

So as not to bore the others excessively I'll only comment on one of your little rebukes. I did not say that Jonbee was an arguement against adopting a shelter dog. I did say that the fact that a shelter put out such a sugar coated glowing description of him, while omitting so much of the negative parts of his history, in an effort to get him adopted was an arguement against adopting a shelter dog, as that sort of behavior by a shelter undermines the credibility of all shelters.

You're, again, being presumptuous in qualifying your statement. You are presuming the dog was not rehabilitated. You're presuming the dog is better off in a shelter than in a home. You're presuming the shelter would not give the potential adopter "full disclosure" at the time of adoption.

Quote:

If I was running the shelter I would want the people adopting JonBee to get a complete picture of his background, good and bad, and I would not release him to anyone who did not have experience with dogs. I would not compromise people's safety, even for the sake of saving a dog.

If you were running a shelter, you'd have a lot of dogs on your hands, with no one visiting. You need people to get in the door, first. There's nothing in the description to argue someone should purchase a puppy instead JonBee. There's nothing in the description that is questionable or objectionable from an ethics POV. The only thing we can conclude is you make a lot of assumptions about a shelter you know nothing about.

Had you said it would be prudent to investigate the shelter before taking JonBee home, that would be a great idea. Suggesting the next obvious choice is a puppy...not so much.

peppy264 · 06-09-2009, 07:03 PM

Well you can see a lot of the history of JonBee from the original show and a few links above. Then read the description from the shelter. And you don't see anything in the description that is questionable or objectionable? LOL.

Quote:

If you were running a shelter, you'd have a lot of dogs on your hands, with no one visiting. You need people to get in the door, first.......You're presuming the shelter would not give the potential adopter "full disclosure" at the time of adoption.

Thats great, so we write a misleading description to suck people into the shelter, but we'll give them the real info when we have them there and we can get them to look into JonBee's lovely eyes and tell them, 'take him home today ........or we don't know what may happen'. Nice.

Curbside Prophet · 06-09-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peppy264

Well you can see a lot of the history of JonBee from the original show and a few links above. Then read the description from the shelter. And you don't see anything in the description that is questionable or objectionable?

Do we know what rehab JonBee had since being on TDW? No. Therefore it *is* presumptuous on your part to assume he is not rehabed and could not be placed in a suitable home.

Quote:

Thats great, so we write a misleading description to suck people into the shelter, but we'll give them the real info when we have them there and we can get them to look into JonBee's lovely eyes and tell them, 'take him home today ........or we don't know what may happen'. Nice.

You're assuming all the misleading information. So look in the mirror. What do you know about the dog's rehab? Everything they wrote can be true, and a "responsible" guardian would be able to assess this for themselves, and rather eaisily IMO. They don't need you amateur opinion of JonBee's b-mod potential, that you gleaned from a TV entertainment show, to make a good choice.

KBLover · 06-09-2009, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiml

I certainly wish I had seen this episode to see what CM actually did. Did he just lift the tail, or was there some CC/OC going on as well?>>>>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DZ1aqDK6Ik

That's just weird! I know this wouldn't work for Wally. He'd be utterly freaked about having the leash on his tail by itself.

Still not sure that holding up a dog's tail will create a confident dog, never mind that if the dog feels his tail needs to go down, it would seem better to actually "attack" the dog's lack of confidence/negative association than it would even touching the tail.

Ah well, I know using CC/OC actually works on Wally. Touching his tail while he's fearful - I don't think that would work.

Westhighlander · 06-09-2009, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLover

Ah well, I know using CC/OC actually works on Wally. Touching his tail while he's fearful - I don't think that would work.

Sometimes an owner's concerns and worries manifests itself in their dog's behavior.

KBLover · 06-09-2009, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westhighlander

Sometimes an owner's concerns and worries manifests itself in their dog's behavior.

True.

But my thinking is, if he's one step from getting out of there - reaching down and lifting his tail is probably the last thing I need to do. He's wound up enough and then to have something touch near his rear "out of nowhere"...

And if he's far enough away from the trigger that he's just "mildly fearful" wouldn't classical conditioning approaches work better than lifting his tail?

Westhighlander · 06-09-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLover

True.

But my thinking is, if he's one step from getting out of there - reaching down and lifting his tail is probably the last thing I need to do. He's wound up enough and then to have something touch near his rear "out of nowhere"...

And if he's far enough away from the trigger that he's just "mildly fearful" wouldn't classical conditioning approaches work better than lifting his tail?

Yes, CC approaches might definitely work better. I'm just suggesting because you don't have confidence in the tail lifting method that already is sending negative energy to the dog. So, if someone who does think it would work might actually pull it off.

hulkamaniac · 06-09-2009, 09:14 PM

The things I miss when I actually work all day instead of goofing off. My comments -

On the tail - Yeah, it sounds silly. It probably doesn't work, but what harm does it do? You're not physically hurting the dog and I think I can guage my dogs mood regardless of what his tail is doing. You're not hurting the dog at all, I see no real harm in trying it.

On rescues vs puppies - I would completely disagree with peppy264. You will that every single puppy on the face of the planet has behavior issues. They have no bite inhibition. They jump on people. They are not house trained. They have little or no control of their bladder. They chew on everything. They jump on everything. They play extremely rough with completely unfamiliar dogs. They have no leash manners. They have horrible manners with people. They have horrible manners with other dogs. They have no recall. They have the attention span of a gnat. You have no idea how big they'll get. You don't know how much they'll shed. They're cute, but they're a complete pain in the ass. Shelter dogs have bite inhibition (if they didn't, the shelter would've screened this). They may or may not be housetrained, but if they're not, they do have full control of their bladders. Many do know how to sit. Many do have leash manners. Most know what to chew on and what not to chew on. If they jump on people or other dogs, it's already known. Many do not jump on people. Many have manners with other dogs. You know exactly what size they're going to be. Many know enough to know that if you call them they will at least look at you. Might not come, but they will generally look at you. Their attention span is longer than that of a puppies so they can be easier to train.

peppy264 · 06-09-2009, 10:06 PM

My dear Hulk, I wasn't trying to argue puppies vs shelter; that would be OT here. My related points were:

i) if shelters give sugar coated descriptions of problematic dogs (e.g. JohBee) it hurts the credibility of all shelters and thus improves the arguement in favor of puppies over shelter dogs.

ii) Whereas any responsible person willing to commit the time can be successful with a pup (or for that matter MOST shelter dogs), I would not send a JonBee (large dog, extensive history of serious aggression or fear problems) home with anyone who was not experienced with dogs. Too much risk for the person and the dog.

Do you seriously disagree with those 2 statements?

re: puppies vs shelters - I do believe first time dog buyers are better off with puppies than a shelter dog, for a number of reasons, but that is a different debate, lots of other threads on that where I have been (wrongly and unfairly) criticized. LOL

Westhighlander · 06-09-2009, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peppy264

ii) Whereas any responsible person willing to commit the time can be successful with a pup (or for that matter MOST shelter dogs), I would not send a JonBee (large dog, extensive history of serious aggression or fear problems) home with anyone who was not experienced with dogs. Too much risk for the person and the dog.

Do you seriously disagree with those 2 statements?

Depends where you get the puppy from. I don't agree with this statement if it is just some random puppy.

peppy264 · 06-09-2009, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westhighlander

Depends where you get the puppy from. I don't agree with this statement if it is just some random puppy.

OK then so Why can't any responsible person willing to commit the time be successful with a random puppy ?

hulkamaniac · 06-10-2009, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peppy264

OK then so Why can't any responsible person willing to commit the time be successful with a random puppy ?

Because a poorly bred puppy can be even more of a pain than a poorly bred adult.

jiml · 06-10-2009, 09:29 AM

So, if someone who does think it would work might actually pull it off.>>>>

I still think its well - dumb. But if it helps the owners lack of confidence - I honestly never thaught of that.