Cesar Millan (the dog whisperer)

Dogstar · 02-15-2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexysilver

DogStar would you use his methods on you're dogs?

because I am looking into using his methods on my dogs and so far they have worked, but thats my opinion.

Thank you for your opinion

No, I would not. Why would I need to? I have perfectly nice, well behaved pets and working dog without any need to resort to any sort of crappy physical dominance games.

sexysilver · 02-15-2009, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogstar

No, I would not. Why would I need to? I have perfectly nice, well behaved pets and working dog without any need to resort to any sort of crappy physical dominance games.

THats youre opinion about him. Yes and my dogs are very well behaved dogs also, but with also using Cesars methods.

It doesnt make me any the less of a better person just because i agree and use his methods and they work for me, so I will continue to use them if I ever have a problem.

Curbside Prophet · 02-15-2009, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexysilver

It doesnt make me any the less of a better person just because i agree and use his methods and they work for me, so I will continue to use them if I ever have a problem.

I don't think anyone is arguing which methods you should use. I'm sure if we took all your methods and laid them out on a table we could easily explain to you why it works without using dominance theory. I don't gather that you're really interested in opinions that differ from yours by your need to defend Cesar; a need no one is really interested in, so...

sexysilver · 02-15-2009, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I don't think anyone is arguing which methods you should use. I'm sure if we took all your methods and laid them out on a table we could easily explain to you why it works without using dominance theory. I don't get that you're intersted in opinions that differ from yours by the way you've taken a need to defend Cesar; a need no one is really interested in, so...

Is being curious not allowed?

I feel that he has done really well with what he has achived and he is my role model.

He has rescued loads of dogs has a natural born talent and I dont get why people dont like him or his methods? or why I get slaughter over liking his methods and practising his methods.

Yeah if you took all my methods and explained its only because you all now an alfull lot better than I do and clearly my opinion isnt allowed this a number of you.

Does it make me a no-one for being interested in cesars methods ??

TooneyDogs · 02-15-2009, 08:03 PM

One of the best trainers in the world trains without collars or leashes and not a hint of intimidation or force in any of his training. His challenge to dog trainers is a very simple question...."If I can train my Dolphins, Killer Whales, Parrots and all the animals in my charge without those 'tools'.....Why can't you train your dogs without them?"
Just some food for thought about our training methods.

zimandtakandgrrandmimi · 02-15-2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexysilver

oh youre back.

if its family groups how come most mother daughter groups dont get on as the keep battleing each other and have fights,

(dogs fight for breeding rights bitches fight for breathing rights) thats what i have learned!

first of all I was addressing Curbside...

and as for your comments....water under the bridge...nice try.

Curbside Prophet · 02-15-2009, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexysilver

Is being curious not allowed?

Being curious is wonderful. Taking opinions from others and feeling the need to defend yours is bad form.

Quote:

I feel that he has done really well with what he has achived and he is my role model.

I'm glad you've done well with your dog, that's all anyone could hope for.

Quote:

He has rescued loads of dogs has a natural born talent and I dont get why people dont like him or his methods?

I haven't read anyone taking Cesar personally, so I'm not sure where you're getting that. People don't like his methods because of the way he justifies using them. His reasoning is highly flawed as is all of dominance theory.

Quote:

or why I get slaughter over liking his methods and practising his methods.

I haven't read anyone slaughter you...if they had, they'd likely be banned by now. What you're feeling is a need to defend Cesar when opinions differ from yours. If you're truly curious you'd want to know more about alternative explanations for why methods work. So long as you're defensive about it, you're not likely to read other comments as informative.

Quote:

Yeah if you took all my methods and explained its only because you all now an alfull lot better than I do and clearly my opinion isnt allowed this a number of you.

Does it make me a no-one for being interested in cesars methods ??

A no-one? No. Someone caught on to the caboose? Perhaps.

wvasko · 02-15-2009, 09:07 PM

Well, I started training when Cesar was a young boy maybe he is using some of my methods. Not the alpha roll though as I've never used it. I got to say these Cesar threads are getting sillier and sillier and longer and longer and very little is ever accomplished.

hulkamaniac · 02-15-2009, 10:23 PM

I think people who dismiss Cesar out of hand make the same mistake as people who accept all his techniques and practices as gospel. I have used some of his techniques and they work. Some I think are a little extreme.

Tofu_pup · 02-15-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

One of the best trainers in the world trains without collars or leashes and not a hint of intimidation or force in any of his training. His challenge to dog trainers is a very simple question...."If I can train my Dolphins, Killer Whales, Parrots and all the animals in my charge without those 'tools'.....Why can't you train your dogs without them?"
Just some food for thought about our training methods.

Who is this? I want to know more.

And I'll pass on the Cesar.

Cheetah · 02-15-2009, 11:51 PM

To me, trying to communicate to your dog in the same way you would a wolf is like trying to communicate to a human the same way you would an ape. There are similarities, but there are also a lot of differences and it's just not the same.

I treat my dogs like dogs, not like wolves.

Also, seeing as how Dogstar is a professional dog trainer, I wouldn't think she'd have any need to use such methods on her dogs. >^^;<

Binkalette · 02-15-2009, 11:56 PM

I LOVE Cesar's methods. It's amazing to see how quickly they work. And I love that he -NEVER- gives up on any dog. The one I don't like is the Victoria lady from It's me or the dog...

TooneyDogs · 02-16-2009, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tofu_pup

Who is this? I want to know more.

Ted Turner. He said that many years ago when he was doing aquatic training at SeaWorld.....before he settled on dog training.

Tofu_pup · 02-16-2009, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

Ted Turner. He said that many years ago when he was doing aquatic training at SeaWorld.....before he settled on dog training.

Thanks!
I like that challenge of his.

Love's_Sophie · 02-16-2009, 12:59 AM

I think that depending on the circumstances with a dog that I have, or am working with...yes, some of CMs 'methods' might be what is needed. Same with any other 'pop culture' dog trainers methods. If I had tried every other venue on a dog, and nothing was working, I would try every venue before having the dog pts...and alot of the canines Cesar Milan works with are 'such' cases. Same with Victory Stillwell...every person has personal choice-and everything always looks better on TV; that still hasn't change my hubby's view on responsiblity for his dog-she's still a pain, and he's still too ignorant to listen to what he preaches, just cause he's seen it on tv; I personally don't think that certain training devices are cruel, like some people\trainers do either; does that mean I'm cracked or don't have happy dogs? No, it just means I have the choice to feel that way; and my dogs are quite happy. It's all about knowing what works best for you and your dog, especially if your in a tough spot, and funds, or time, or in some cases, friends or family are running out...and also even though I use them occasionally, gentle leaders, which are a big thing VS brings to her clients, are not allowed in obedience or rally...so it makes sense for me to use what 'can' be used for those classes; which is a flat buckle, choker, or martingale collar...Mostly I train with a martingale\greyhound style.

And I agree with Wvasko that threads like this are monotonous, silly, and 'taxing'; especially, usually, to the OP; really, who cares if they use a certain person's methods...if their dog's are happy, and well adjusted??? ... I think "most" people who have spent their time investing in dogs, has something to offer; if a person doesn't agree with it, then they don't have to read, or watch, or pay for any of it...simple as that. But, of course, instead of simply saying, "yes, I agree with that" or "no, it's not for me" people have to take it to the hilt and start an all out "this person's methods-vs-this person's methods". It's true, some of certain trainer's methods are quote un quote 'outdated', but hey...eventually so will you and I be...so why waste petty time 'discussing' a simple yes or no answer in so many pages???

pattymac · 02-16-2009, 01:40 AM

there's a similar argument on a Canadian forum re Brad Pattison who makes Cesar look like a ***** cat in regards to methods. As for me, I want to train my dog using methods that if I want to, I can use on my cats. Training my cats is sort of a side project for me. Hmm if I tried alpha rolling my cats, well let's just say I'd have a few bandaids on my arms and his poking and jabbing wouldn't go over too well either!! I prefer not to have a 15 pound cat latched onto my arm. So needless to say I use postive reinforcement for my training/teaching

KBLover · 02-16-2009, 01:52 AM

I'll use whatever works and gets the results without harming Wally.

If I need to be "a little mean" to him to get his attention - fine (in the canine world walking directly at a dog can be considered "threatening" and I'll do that to him, body block him, lean over him a little, etc - basically, if I get compliance and a light calming signal like a nose lick, that's what I try for - then I back off, act like it never happened and go on doing whatever). If I can click&treat my way through the day - sure. Sometimes he has "those days" and no amount of ignoring, withdrawing, etc is going to get him back on track. But sometimes only a firm "dominating" look will get him settled down and focused, especially outside when we're doing off-leash practice - the look tells him it's not play time, but work time right now.

I do believe dogs need a leader. Whether you want to call it "pack leader" or "dominant" or "alpha" it's just semantics to me. The whole act of resource/access/activity control is leadership - regardless of the name you give it.

I also believe in projecting a calm demeanor to a dog. Again, whatever you want to call it doesn't matter to me.

Basically, like 90% of all methods - it has value, how much depends on you, your dog, your environment, your goals.

Why people need to vilify any method they don't personally like makes no sense to me. It's one thing to not like/use a method - another to say it's worthless and pointless.

zimandtakandgrrandmimi · 02-16-2009, 02:03 AM

I don't think Cesar himself is a bad guy. I personally find his methods repugnant...most particularly flooding. That is so awful and stressful and does not a damm thing to change how the dog views what its being flooded with.

I strongly disagree with dominence theory. meaning the idea that dogs are pack animals descended from wolves. Its much simpler and doesn't as I see it involve leadership at all...I don't lead my dogs..I follow them around with a clicker so I can tell them when I like what they are doing. They keep doing those things that I like because they like what I do for them in return.

KBLover · 02-16-2009, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

I strongly disagree with dominence theory. meaning the idea that dogs are pack animals descended from wolves. Its much simpler and doesn't as I see it involve leadership at all...I don't lead my dogs..I follow them around with a clicker so I can tell them when I like what they are doing. They keep doing those things that I like because they like what I do for them in return.

But your clicks are saying "hey that's the right thing to do!" When you don't click - that's telling them to try something else

To me, that's still leadership - you're guiding/influencing/directing their behaviors. I think that's the definition of leadership, canine or human.

The form of leadership you describe is more like a teacher that isn't just lecturing/telling the students what to do, but more like a teacher that encourages experimentation and discussion while the teacher just maintains a general sense of order and telling the students if they are on the right track or if they might want to try something else.

Leadership comes in many flavors - I wouldn't say you don't use leadership, you just use a different kind.

As far as flooding - I don't think I would subject Wally to something he just has total and utter fear of, but a lot of times, he uses the "I'm scared" card to get out of doing something (like learning how to go up and down the stairs). I mean, I just didn't think it neccessary to carry him up and down stairs for the next 6-12 weeks while he "decides when he wants to approach them". He learned how in like a day and has no fear of the stairs. Same for walking on different surfaces. So maybe I "flooded" him (i.e. forced him to do something he didn't want to), but he learned how to deal with it and is less scared and more confident for it.

zimandtakandgrrandmimi · 02-16-2009, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KBLover

But your clicks are saying "hey that's the right thing to do!" When you don't click - that's telling them to try something else

To me, that's still leadership - you're guiding/influencing/directing their behaviors. I think that's the definition of leadership, canine or human.

The form of leadership you describe is more like a teacher that isn't just lecturing/telling the students what to do, but more like a teacher that encourages experimentation and discussion while the teacher just maintains a general sense of order and telling the students if they are on the right track or if they might want to try something else.

Leadership comes in many flavors - I wouldn't say you don't use leadership, you just use a different kind.

but they lead me too. its a trade off. I say I like what you do. Will you do it for me if I do what you like?

like how I am teaching Bolo to scent and track. Im giving her this skill and I will let her lead me and make decisions about where we should go to find the thing we are looking for. a trade off. a partnership. She has skills that because I am human I can never possess. So in those scenarios where her skills are more trustworthy than mine...she is the leader...