[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

If domanince doesnt exist then why is it when you have a pack of dogs there is always a pack leader a domaninate male or female leading that pack. A friend of mine has 9 dogs and there is a clear pack leader. The domaninate female who none of the other dogs would dare bother is she walks over to the other dog eating the other dog back off.

It appears to be domaninance. xx

dogs are NOT PACK ANIMALS. they are however social animals meaning they form loose structured groups. in a Wolf Pack you have your Alpha and so forth. in a group of dogs there is no *position* of Alpha.

Go spend some time with wolves and even just high content wolf hybrids and you will see a MAJOR difference.

[sexysilver]

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

dogs are NOT PACK ANIMALS. they are however social animals meaning they form loose structured groups. in a Wolf Pack you have your Alpha and so forth. in a group of dogs there is no *position* of Alpha.

Go spend some time with wolves and even just high content wolf hybrids and you will see a MAJOR difference.

Have you yourself spend any amount of time with wolves?

Dogs decended from wolves did they not?

If dogs are not pack animals then why does Cesar Pack methods work if dogs are not pack animals?

[K9companions]

I, personally, think Cesar has some good tactics to bring to the trainer table.

However, also in my opinion, it's not for everyone because it does require you to have fast reflexes, a deep 'nature like' pack orientated bond with your dog, and no timidness towards touching your dog as a correction. With all those combined, it doesn't usually fit into someone's training manual.

[TooneyDogs]

Originally Posted by sexysilver

Yes you are right there but as he knows what he is doing and he doesnt appear to be pysically hurting the dog but using methods dogs themselfs use.

That's the point.....these are not dog to dog relationships. It's a human to dog relationship. We don't have to act like dogs to communicate and teach.

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by sexysilver

Have you yourself spend any amount of time with wolves?

Dogs decended from wolves did they not?

If dogs are not pack animals then why does Cesar Pack methods work if dogs are not pack animals?

yes I have.

no they did not. Dogs and wolves most likely descended from a common anscestor. and then evolved into WILDLY separate Phenotypes..


and as far as his methods working....I see stressed upset borderline dangerous animals on his show being claimed as *rehabbed*

Did you even read the links?????

[K9companions]

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

dogs are NOT PACK ANIMALS. they are however social animals meaning they form loose structured groups. in a Wolf Pack you have your Alpha and so forth. in a group of dogs there is no *position* of Alpha.

Go spend some time with wolves and even just high content wolf hybrids and you will see a MAJOR difference.

I would have to agree that dogs are pack animals. If they weren't they would probably be more like....cats. Lol. You can leave a cat in your house with food and water, leave and come back and the cat wouldn't know the difference (in most cases.) Do that to a dog and he will go crazy the first day let alone a week. Dog's are social. They derived from pack animals and still need pack social-ness.

When Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, after all the humans were gone, all the stray dogs were found in large packs together to stay alive. They are social.

Um...yeah thats it for me.

[sexysilver]

No we dont but his methods work using that relationship and he is clearly not HURTING a dog, I wouldnt like his methods or him if he hurt a dog simple as,

and yes he has a god given talent to do what he does and no all can cope with that but the few who can can try them and have great results xx

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

yes I have.

no they did not. Dogs and wolves most likely descended from a common anscestor. and then evolved into WILDLY separate Phenotypes..

Well well done but I do believe that dogs are pack animals and that his methods work without hurting a dog, some can preform his methods and have great results other cant its as simple as that, but only those who are dedicated to stick to his methods work, There is a man how trains mountain rescue dog uses Cesars methods and his own and they have turned out amazine dogs! xx

[Curbside Prophet]

Actually, studies of dominance hierarchies in wolves haven't proven one exists either. Why? Because dominance is contextual, it is not a characteristic of the animal.

There have been only 3 studies of dominance hierarchies in dogs that I'm aware of and none of them concluded that one exists. So if you use Cesar's justification for his methods, you're using justification that hasn't been proven to be true. Scott and Fuller studied dog hierarchies, Dunbar and Beach studied dog hierarchies, and here's the 3rd: http://nonlineardogs.com/embed-SocOrg.html.

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by K9companions

I would have to agree that dogs are pack animals. If they weren't they would probably be more like....cats. Lol. You can leave a cat in your house with food and water, leave and come back and the cat wouldn't know the difference (in most cases.) Do that to a dog and he will go crazy the first day let alone a week. Dog's are social. They derived from pack animals and still need pack social-ness.

When Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans, after all the humans were gone, all the stray dogs were found in large packs together to stay alive. They are social.

Um...yeah thats it for me.

there is a difference between pack behavior and loose social groups.

Packs are FOR LIFE. That's not possible with dogs.

Packs have RIGID structure. Dogs social structures are fluid and change often.

I could go on and on and on and on but Im tired of this whole Cesar BS. He is a quack and if you want to stress the hell out of your dogs its a free country.

peace Zim is out.

[K9companions]

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

there is a difference between pack behavior and loose social groups.

Packs are FOR LIFE. That's not possible with dogs.

Packs have RIGID structure. Dogs social structures are fluid and change often.

I could go on and on and on and on but Im tired of this whole Cesar BS. He is a quack and if you want to stress the hell out of your dogs its a free country.

peace Zim is out.

Ok...see yah around...

[RonE]

Originally Posted by Marsh Muppet

Moderators, I see this post as inflammatory and demand it be deleted.

Next time, include a little smilie face so we know you're not serious.

[winniec777]

Gadzooks, here we go again. Typing in a can't-look-away-from-the-train-wreck sort of way....

How is a neck pop not hurting the dog?
How good does it feel to be alpha-rolled?
Would you do either of these things to a 3-year old child?

Then why the heck do it to a dog when there are many other more universally effective (i.e. work for trainers at all levels), humane, proven ways to train dogs and deal with problem behaviors?

Coming out of trance now...must stop typing....eeeee-arrrrrrghhhhhhhh......

[sexysilver]

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

there is a difference between pack behavior and loose social groups.

Packs are FOR LIFE. That's not possible with dogs.

Packs have RIGID structure. Dogs social structures are fluid and change often.

I could go on and on and on and on but Im tired of this whole Cesar BS. He is a quack and if you want to stress the hell out of your dogs its a free country.

peace Zim is out.

If you are trying to say that I would stress the hell out of my dog just to follow a few commands then go ahead but to be honest I too am allowed to follow his methods and believe they can work.

But I would never hurt my dog pysically or mentally!

Yes packs are always changing as the dogs grows weaker or stronger a weak dog would near battle a strong dog it will wait till it gets weaker and weaker then attack for pack leader status. You feel free to have youre opinion as i am too.

bye Zim

[RonE]

Roundabouts have become a popular alternative in this area to conventional intersections. I can't imagine why. They are less popular with the people who actually have to drive through them regularly.

The OP's circular logic reminds me of one of those roundabouts.

[sexysilver]

Originally Posted by winniec777

Gadzooks, here we go again. Typing in a can't-look-away-from-the-train-wreck sort of way....

How is a neck pop not hurting the dog?
How good does it feel to be alpha-rolled?
Would you do either of these things to a 3-year old child?

Then why the heck do it to a dog when there are many other more universally effective (i.e. work for trainers at all levels), humane, proven ways to train dogs and deal with problem behaviors?

Coming out of trance now...must stop typing....eeeee-arrrrrrghhhhhhhh......

If you listen and read what he is saying its not the touch he isnt stabbing the dog in the neck with his hand its the psycological power and the type of domanince that he has as he has.

No you wouldnt but you also wouldnt put a collar on your child and take it for a walk or put a muzzle on him/her.

his methods are not inhumane! x

[K9companions]

Originally Posted by winniec777

Gadzooks, here we go again. Typing in a can't-look-away-from-the-train-wreck sort of way....

How is a neck pop not hurting the dog?
How good does it feel to be alpha-rolled?
Would you do either of these things to a 3-year old child?

Then why the heck do it to a dog when there are many other more universally effective (i.e. work for trainers at all levels), humane, proven ways to train dogs and deal with problem behaviors?

Coming out of trance now...must stop typing....eeeee-arrrrrrghhhhhhhh......

Uck...now I can't stop myself either...pah....boo...

We don't know what the neck pop does, except that it works for what we want: to snap the dog back to attention. We don't know if it hurts or not, we aren't them. We can only go by if the dog yelps or not. If it's yelping your abusing, not disciplining.

I don't know I have never been alpha-rolled. An 'alpha roll' which I just call putting a dog on its side, isn't done every day and at everything. It is done at very extreme cases. When I first got Hunter, we were playing and he became too possessive of a toy. He lunged and snapped at my hand. I placed him (not threw him, but placed) on his side and said 'no'. He never did it again. Of course theres energy with it and blah blah blah blah.

No, I wouldn't do it to a child, but everyone against it always says 'dogs and humans aren't the same thing'. So therefor I can't really place rolling a child instead of rolling a dog. We send a child to a corner as our language. Dog language is they roll eachother.

Alright....*puts on hot suit* ready for the flammin'!

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

I aactually went two days ago to volunteer helping with a wolf 'pack' and the way I had it explained to me is packs are based on family groups.

That's not something that often can happen with dogs.

listen to Curb and to TJ if he happens to pop in...

anyway im out. I hate the Cesar debates.

[sexysilver]

Originally Posted by K9companions

Uck...now I can't stop myself either...pah....boo...

We don't know what the neck pop does, except that it works for what we want: to snap the dog back to attention. We don't know if it hurts or not, we aren't them. We can only go by if the dog yelps or not. If it's yelping your abusing, not disciplining.

I don't know I have never been alpha-rolled. An 'alpha roll' which I just call putting a dog on its side, isn't done every day and at everything. It is done at very extreme cases. When I first got Hunter, we were playing and he became too possessive of a toy. He lunged and snapped at my hand. I placed him (not threw him, but placed) on his side and said 'no'. He never did it again. Of course theres energy with it and blah blah blah blah.

No, I wouldn't do it to a child, but everyone against it always says 'dogs and humans aren't the same thing'. So therefor I can't really place rolling a child instead of rolling a dog. We send a child to a corner as our language. Dog language is they roll eachother.

Alright....*puts on hot suit* ready for the flammin'!

Yes I agree if humans were dogs they would be weaned before they get to 3 years old. And dogs mature alot faster than humans do.

and his methods have worked for me in what little ways I have used them and my dogs are still the same happy go lucky dogs but with more respect for me.

[K9companions]

I gotta pack up to go back to my apartment for college....be back later everyone....

[sexysilver]

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

I aactually went two days ago to volunteer helping with a wolf 'pack' and the way I had it explained to me is packs are based on family groups.

That's not something that often can happen with dogs.

listen to Curb and to TJ if he happens to pop in...

anyway im out. I hate the Cesar debates.

oh youre back.

if its family groups how come most mother daughter groups dont get on as the keep battleing each other and have fights,

(dogs fight for breeding rights bitches fight for breathing rights) thats what i have learned!