[Boonkiemom]

Originally Posted by Marsh Muppet

Re Victoria Stillwell: I can't even watch her show. For all I know, she may be the greatest dog trainer in the English speaking world, but she just talks too much. And that voice. Oy!

If my wife invited her to come and work with my dog, I'd get a hotel room until she was gone. She really should learn to use her inside voice.

I think it's the arrogant English in her that makes her that way. I saw her on that America's Greatest Dog show over the Summer and she got in a big fight with the chick who has the little maltese. It was quite entertaining but made them both look like buffoons. In the end, they kissed and made up, though.

[Marsh Muppet]

Originally Posted by Boonkiemom

I think it's the arrogant English in her that makes her that way. I saw her on that America's Greatest Dog show over the Summer and she got in a big fight with the chick who has the little maltese. It was quite entertaining but made them both look like buffoons. In the end, they kissed and made up, though.

I don't know that Brits are arrogant. Now Canadians, on the other hand......

I'm KIDDING. Okay?

My wife used to work in a peripheral area of the entertainment industry, and she taught me not to put much stock in an entertainer's public persona. People on TV and in movies are not always as they appear.

[Tofu_pup]

Originally Posted by Binkalette

Ugh.. I hate Victoria.. she's so mean to the owners. And IMO she has a very weak approach when dealing with some of the dogs.

That's part of why I like her. Sometimes, it's nice to hear stupid owners being told that they are in fact stupid owners. I've been rude on occassion with people but I don't have the nerve to say what I'd like to. That's where victoria stillwell comes in.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by Boonkiemom

If you're referring to Victoria Stillwell, she's WAYYYYYY too reliant on treats and clickers to do what she does. But I'll bet her methods make some here feel good.

Do you mean to say that her methods are ineffective? Because I know for a fact there are professional trainers on this forum and on others I visit who use positive reinforcement as a large part of their methods, and are very successful with it. I'll admit, some of the things she's done left me going "Uh... what?" such as the "flag/leave-it method for the poop-eating pugs - far too complicated when you can just leash them all and prevent access till they grow out of the habit - but most of her methods are mainstream methods that make sense.

Both my dogs have learned mainly with positive methods (including treats, clickers, life rewards, praise, etc.), including some of the methods Victoria uses (after all, most of those methods were around before she was), and both my dogs are now balanced, well-behaved dogs who haven't relied on treats for a very long time (you're supposed to phase out the treats when you clicker/treat train).

[animalsafe]

LMAO..


I think IMHO some of the things that Victoria and others do is proof that aversives have value and that nothing is new when considering the options and history to conditioning behavior. Just possibly repackaged and given a new name in my opinion.. Not sure how I would discribe the age old nature of being biased and exclusive however.

cheers

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Boonkiemom

What I'm more curious about is why you are so cynical about this show. Why knock results?

What results? Cesar admits to his faults as much as he does his successes. This would seem in alignment with many supposed "professional" dog trainers. Why people are cynical?, because his logic is based on an outdated, misplaced hypothesis.

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...0statement.pdf

Ditto for you. Have you even watched the show? Or are you just the average armchair critic?

Label me however you please, but I would resist doing so publicly. Regardless, your label does not confirm or deny my point.

If you're referring to Victoria Stillwell, she's WAYYYYYY too reliant on treats and clickers to do what she does.

A silly question, but how can you argue results? Do you even know what a clicker does? How can the clicker be overly used if you're acquiring a behavior or emotion? How else can you acquire behavior without reinforcement? Do you even know what the definition of reinforcement is?

[animalsafe]

My take on clickers in this case would be..I know who asked me..

Is that they (clickers)cannot be (such an absolute? hmmm) overused or misused just effective or non-effective, used correctly or used incorrectly, but never abusive or aversive.. unless swallowed..

[rogueslg71]

Originally Posted by BoxMeIn21

Please elaborate? What others have failed?
Of course Cesar is going to be successful all the time on his show - do you think he's going to show where a guest had to go to another behavior specialist because his methods didn't work? Not.

i think she is talking about the many cases where the person has said they have tried to see other specialists and trainers and none of those people fixed the issue. people turn to milan as a last resort in those cases and then he 'fixes' the problem.

[pugmom]

Originally Posted by Boonkiemom

I think it's the arrogant English in her that makes her that way. I saw her on that America's Greatest Dog show over the Summer and she got in a big fight with the chick who has the little maltese. It was quite entertaining but made them both look like buffoons. In the end, they kissed and made up, though.

Hmmmmm I'm going to hope that you are from England ...so that our DF members that are Englishmen/Women don't take offense to that comment

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by pugmom

Hmmmmm I'm going to hope that you are from England ...so that our DF members that are Englishmen/Women don't take offense to that comment

Victoria, jump on them stupid people. I back her 100% with her people approach and I don't care where she's from. This also goes along with the all in black clothes approach, she should be a little menacing towards idiots. The TV producers do a great job as I suspect they pick the people who have the stupidest problems because the dogs are just dogs, it's all about the people.

[pugmom]

I don't love all Of VS methods.....I never got the whole flag/poo thing for the pugs .....But I do love the way she gets on people......some of the owners need a wake up call...their dogs are not out of control!!..the owners are just lazy......I just watched one where a husband and wife have some kind of hound and a pit mix.....and then they didn't understand why the pit mix was always digging under the fence to get out and run the neighborhood......so VS told them well if you never got out of your house for a walk or drive wouldn't you always try to escape too????...then the husband said he didn't really mind that his dog got out because he always comes back....(palm to forehead smack!!)...and then complained though out the show about having to walk his own dogs every day!!....that is the kinda dog owner who needs to be talked to like a child !!

ok rant over!

[animalsafe]

Does anyone knw why Victoria is such an ANTI CRATE person?

I thought this would be a good time to ask since she is the topic of discussion at the moment. I guess I could 'google it' but that would not be as fun

cheers

[rogueslg71]

as far as i've seen she hasnt said or shown any signs she is anti crate? the last episode i saw, she bought two crates for the two dogs in the house and made them use it for the dogs while they were gone.

[Elana55]

This has been a most entertaining thread.

FWIW I think anyone training dogs should first train a cat. You get a whole different persepctive. I have trained cats and horses and dogs. I got to tell you.. over all, cats are toughest and you can never ever ever correct a cat (they are always right.. LOL). Oliver retrieves better than the dog ever will and he sits, comes when called, pays attention, sits and walks on a lead.....

And to the positive thing vs. the Correction thing let me tell y'all a little story:

Last week Atka and I went to Pet Smart. We needed to get Oliver a new toy and we had to get Oliver a present for his cousin, Thai (its a long story.. LOL), and as long as we were there, I let Atka choose some treats.

Now Atka has Attention Deficit Disorder in Petsmart. She wants to bring home ALLthe kitties (we don't go over their anymore because of that), and she wants to check out EVERY toy (cat and dog), and sniff EVERY bag of food, treats etc. My cues stand in line BEHIND the good stuff at Petsmart.

While in there I used some corrections to get her to behave. She did behave and the corrections worked. HOWEVER, after we paid for the Treats she picked out I opened the bag and her response to my cues and her attentiveness came around like LIGHTNING. I was using YES because we did not have the clicker.. and I was reinforcing her intermittently.. and the difference in how this dog worked was amazing. You would swear I had given her Ridalin... LOL

Atka has been trained with both Positive re. and Corrections. She knows about both. I just need to say that this individual dog's response to Pos. Re. is much stronger, less latent and much much more focused.

I like Victoria Stillwell. I find CM entertaining but rarely incorporate what he does in my training program.

I have eliminated any influence from either since cutting my cable back to Braodcast Basic eliminated VS and CM from my viewing range. I do now have an extra $30 to spend on pets.. I think Atka is going to get upgraded from Canidae to Evo.... VS doesn't use crates because in Europe they are not typically used.

BTW I love reading CP's, WV's and Zims answers. Honestly.. Zim.. With your experience and eloquence writing you NEED TO BE A CERTIFIED BEHAVIORIST!!!!!!! Dogs (pets?) NEED YOU!!!

Carry on..

PS: Dogs do not dominate humans. Dogs do not behave like wolves (they have some behaviors that wolves have but humans and dogs also share behaviors as do many species). Dog social groups are different than wolf packs.

Upset (scared, hurt, excirted) animals learn nothing.

My dog walks ahead of me because I trained her oo (neck injury) and she goes thru doors when I say (sometimes first and sometimes last) and she opens doors for me when I ask her to because I taught her to.

And I too like turtles.. chocolate ones with almonds.

[Boonkiemom]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Do you mean to say that her methods are ineffective? Because I know for a fact there are professional trainers on this forum and on others I visit who use positive reinforcement as a large part of their methods, and are very successful with it. I'll admit, some of the things she's done left me going "Uh... what?" such as the "flag/leave-it method for the poop-eating pugs - far too complicated when you can just leash them all and prevent access till they grow out of the habit - but most of her methods are mainstream methods that make sense.

Both my dogs have learned mainly with positive methods (including treats, clickers, life rewards, praise, etc.), including some of the methods Victoria uses (after all, most of those methods were around before she was), and both my dogs are now balanced, well-behaved dogs who haven't relied on treats for a very long time (you're supposed to phase out the treats when you clicker/treat train).

Let's just say everyone has their opinion about what constitutes "good" training. There is no ONE method that works for all dogs 100% of time. And while I'm at it since the discussion seems to have gone from Cesar to Victoria, there is a difference in what the two actually do. Victoria is a trainer and Cesar rehabilitates. He makes that very clear! Do any of you recall the saying on his show? "I rehabilitate dogs, I train people".

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

What results? Cesar admits to his faults as much as he does his successes.

Thanks for repeating what I said.

Why people are cynical?, because his logic is based on an outdated, misplaced hypothesis

Or so you think. Cesar is probably the most intuitive dog handler since Barbara Woodhouse from England...whose methods were in the same vein. I admired her tremendously. And she wasn't arrogant.

A silly question, but how can you argue results? Do you even know what a clicker does? How can the clicker be overly used if you're acquiring a behavior or emotion? How else can you acquire behavior without reinforcement? Do you even know what the definition of reinforcement is?

Stop insulting me. Gee I wonder how people handled dogs before the clicker was invented? You see, it's unneccessary. Treats and clickers often end up being crutches. As Cesar would say, being calm assertive is what works. It's all in your energy and attitude. Don't you agree?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Boonkiemom

Cesar is probably the most intuitive dog handler since Barbara Woodhouse from England...whose methods were in the same vein. I admired her tremendously. And she wasn't arrogant.

What does your opinion of Cesar and Barbara have to do with outdated dominance theory?

Stop insulting me.

So you find questions insulting? <=Sorry for being insulting, I'll stick with statements of fact so as not to insult you.

Gee I wonder how people handled dogs before the clicker was invented?

I've often wondered how we got to the moon before rockets...not very well as it turns out; so too dog handling methods before learning theory was understood.

You see, it's unneccessary.

Learning theory is as necessary as gravity. Both are fundamental laws. So to say reinforcers and markers are unnecessary is to say gravity is unnecessary to stay grounded.

Treats and clickers often end up being crutches.

They do not. Owners, with their ignorance, end up being the crutch. A clicker is just a tool, it is not a remote control.

As Cesar would say, being calm assertive is what works. It's all in your energy and attitude. Don't you agree?

No, it is not just my energy and attitude. Behavior can be driven by anything in the dog's environment.

[Boonkiemom]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

What does your opinion of Cesar and Barbara have to do with outdated dominance theory?


So you find questions insulting? <=Sorry for being insulting, I'll stick with statements of fact so as not to insult you.


I've often wondered how we got to the moon before rockets...not very well as it turns out; so too dog handling methods before learning theory was understood.


Learning theory is as necessary as gravity. Both are fundamental laws. So to say reinforcers and markers are unnecessary is to say gravity is unnecessary to stay grounded.


They do not. Owners, with their ignorance, end up being the crutch. A clicker is just a tool, it is not a remote control.


No, it is not just my energy and attitude. Behavior can be driven by anything in the dog's environment.

A. You're getting funnier by the post
B. I don't know what "dominance theory" is and don't care
C. Any method that gets the proper results is not "outdated"
D. You and I are just not going to agree. Period.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Boonkiemom

A. You're getting funnier by the post
B. I don't know what "dominance theory" is and don't care
C. Any method that gets the proper results is not "outdated"
D. You and I are just not going to agree. Period.

A. Best movie moment ever:

Tommy DeVito: You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little bleeped up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to bleep'n amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

B. Then you don't care what ideology Cesar uses, that's good in a sense, but I'd stay away from dudes dawning white cloaks with pointy tops.
C. And broken clocks are right twice a day. I still wouldn't recommend telling time with broken clocks.
D. I agree, for the fact that not everyone can employ logic.

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

Originally Posted by Elana55

.
FWIW I think anyone training dogs should first train a cat. You get a whole different persepctive. I have trained cats and horses and dogs. I got to tell you.. over all, cats are toughest and you can never ever ever correct a cat (they are always right.. LOL).

LMAO....cat training in a nutshell...

Human: Please purty please do this I will be your SLAVE.

Cat:..........hmmmm......maybe....

BTW I love reading CP's, WV's and Zims answers. Honestly.. Zim.. With your experience and eloquence writing you NEED TO BE A CERTIFIED BEHAVIORIST!!!!!!! Dogs (pets?) NEED YOU!!!

Im already on the way to an associate degree in science...not time to narrow my field of study yet but the idea is wandering around in my skull...

[Boonkiemom]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

A. Best movie moment ever:

B. Then you don't care what ideology Cesar uses, that's good in a sense, but I'd stay away from dudes dawning white cloaks with pointy tops.
C. And broken clocks are right twice a day. I still wouldn't recommend telling time with broken clocks.
D. I agree, for the fact that not everyone can employ logic.

I thought you were going to stop insulting? Just can't help yourself can you? BTW, my Sofie is well behaved (according to other people) and we have a great relationship. I am the pack leader, she's the follower and I'm proud of it.

XOXO