[Lolas_Dad]

Originally Posted by gnarfle

Today was also hectic, I walk them in a cemetary and to my surprise, valentine's day is quite busy in a cemetary. They had plenty of distractions, several other people walking dogs plus visitors.

Let's just hope that they do not pick up any digging habits

[gnarfle]

Originally Posted by animalsafe

When I used the prong collar my dog really paid attention to me for the first time in months regardless of how many treats I gave .. That was my problem actually... Later on when I added treats and lot of praise back into the process the dog got it and understood that he could be happy and spirited as long as he conformed to some clearly specified boundaries.....

It's all a matterr of perspective and I believe details to process and understanding. My other dogs were much more into to treats and motivators than my difficult dog.

cheers

Well yeah. I don't have anything against the prong collar, but I'll readily admit I have a hard time doing that to my dogs. I know it doesn't really hurt them and it's safe if properly fitted, etc. I just have a human problem using it. Not to say I wouldn't do it if required, but I also think it's best to start with the most positive methods first before resorting to harsher means. So far I'm seeing decent results with the positive reinforcement, and although it's frustrating knowing it takes a while, I'm feeling good about it. I also know that both of my dogs are very submissive and I'm not sure how leash corrections would go over on them.

I also found, surprisingly, my collie who never seemed into food rewards much is much more receptive to them on walks. My beagle is a pig and will eat anything (she loves dirty socks), but food is much less interesting to her on a walk. My collie is rarely interesting in food and barely eats kibble, but on a walk he is super attentive to hot dog. Maybe he just hates kibble... I can use kibble on a walk with the beagle but the other one won't touch it. But, wave some hot dog around him and he's all eyes on me.

Anyway, today was pretty much more of the same. As a general rule the first half of the walk involves a lot of stopping and the second half involves a lot of what would almost be called heeling. I've started working on expanding the sit on stops to return to my side and sit on stops, so now both dogs are pretty reliable at not just stopping and sitting, but coming back to my side and sitting. One thing I have to watch with the collie is taking it easy on the praise, if I really let him have it he gets so excited he can barely contain himself from breaking into a run I've also made good strides with him on his leash reactivity with people, although he still flips out with other dogs and moving cars. When the weather gets a bit nicer I'm going to try and recruit some other dog owners and driver's to help desensitize him and teach him to focus on me in those situations.

Originally Posted by Lolas_Dad

Let's just hope that they do not pick up any digging habits

They do love the fresh graves... Although I think that's more the smell of fresh earth since the bodies would be pretty well preserved at that point and not likely to seep odors through 6' of dirt.

It does keep life interesting though, you never know when you go for a walk and turn the corner to find 50 people at a funeral. And of course that's the time your puppies decide to poop. I've gotten to know most of the workers there from my walks though and I always carry my poop bags in plain site so they know I'm not responsible for the piles people leave laying around.

[animalsafe]

“I've read up and tried several things. First, I tried the technique of completely stopping anytime there is pressure on the leash. I did this for about a week with no result. What typically happens is that I'll stop and they'll just go on about choking themselves on the leash. The beagle even collapsed at one point. So, what I end up doing is giving them a little tug to stop the pulling and then release. They'll immediately go back to pulling. If I do this 5 to 10 times in a row, they'll eventually stop and look at me.”

“Next I tried another technique. I tried the advice of always keeping moving in the direction I want, no matter what, and giving gentle tugs when there is pressure on the leash to pull them in line. This works marginally better. It keeps them from zig zagging all around, however I have to give the gentle tugs about every other step. My arms hurt. I give a little tug, they easy up, one step later they are pulling again, repeat. No joy.”

“As they walked by my barking straining jumping choking hounds with me straining to keep them still”

“take them for 3 walks a day, otherwise they get stir crazy and destructive. Walks are miserable for me. As far as I can tell, my dogs do not care the least about being choked, gentle tugs or even popping at the end of the leash when they try to take off. It doesn't seem to phase them at all and all it does is wear me out. I really thought that the idea of never allowing pressure on the leash would do it (i.e. leave it slack, when there is pressure, give a tug to bring them back, then immidiately slacken). It doesn't seem to.”

“Am I doing something wrong? Are there other techniques I can try? Should I step up to a halti, pinch collar, cattle prong? I'm at my wit's end here and I'm not sure what to do. All the articles online make it sound so easy, oh just do this and problem solved! Then I do it for days and all it does is give me sore arms.”


"Well yeah. I don't have anything against the prong collar, but I'll readily admit I have a hard time doing that to my dogs. I know it doesn't really hurt them and it's safe if properly fitted, etc. I just have a human problem using it. Not to say I wouldn't do it if required, but I also think it's best to start with the most positive methods first before resorting to harsher means. So far I'm seeing decent results with the positive reinforcement, and although it's frustrating knowing it takes a while, I'm feeling good about it. I also know that both of my dogs are very submissive and I'm not sure how leash corrections would go over on them."



I appreciate your concerns and understand your implication in the use of a prong collar because believe me I was at my wits end also as stated in my post..

Reasonably and understandably everyone needs to make their choices in methods based on a host of priorities (as I stated in my situation ) as I to also had/have a human problem with having my dogs experiencing being choked repeatedly for days/weeks/months and risking injury to my dogs trachea from all of the tension on the leash time and again. When I think of all the discomfort,possible injury,stress, and a host of other issues that is involved with a process like this/that it excites extreme curiosity in why people/a person would subject a dog to this treatment if the main priority of concern was in the use of an aversive be it physical or verbal..

My dogs fortunately and any dog I will own or handle in the future will never have to go thru such a experience because I believe I took the time and made the effort to make a educated and informed choice on various options. It was ( the use of this tool/training collar and method) quite a quick solution in the scheme of things considering my issues to be taught/learn about the prong collar and use it correctly and that to me is more humane than subjecting my dog to a continual nagging and stressful situation over a period of time ,especially a extended one. A few "TRUE" corrections (not repeated nagging/failing attempts to deliver a correction) with the prong collar was all it took for this dog and my situation and back to a buckle collar.

I hope that makes sense and sounds reasonable.
You asked for suggestions and I made a honest effort and hopefully with minimal bias to provided you with what I believe is some good detail ( another option) in what my experience was in resolving my leash pulling issues and I wish you success on whatever you choose to do in your situation.

Cheers

[gnarfle]

Ha, I had that same thought, watching my dogs choke themselves on a leash and I thought, well that's pretty cruel. Hence my embarking on some proper training. I think psychologically (for both the human and the dog) it's harder to go to the prong collar than let them voluntarilly strangle themselves. People are weird creatures

And, it may still come to it with my beagle. My collie is doing reasonably well, which is odd since he is the far more hyper and not terribly food motivated one. My beagle is being difficult though, I can get nice periods of loose leash but mostly towards the end of the walk. The challenge she poses is being a scent hound she cannot resist all the tasty smells outside and if she picks up a scent even hot dog will not redirect her attention towards me. Grrrrr. I'm starting to see the beagle reputation is true.

[hulkamaniac]

I think collies are a more intelligent and faster learning breed which is probably why he's catching on faster. I plan on trying to do some leash training with my canines with both of them on one leash. We'll see how this works.

[gnarfle]

Well, I gotta say all this positive training is slow and frustrating My collie is still doing reasonably well although I feel like we're not progressing a whole lot lately. With him I'm trying switching it up and doing some more circles, penalty yards and not worrying about the sitting so much. I think focusing on sitting when I stop puts the emphasis more on that than on the pulling = stopping part.

My beagle, grrr. Not having much luck with her at all, I do get some periods of loose leash walking but to be honest I think it's more coincidence than anything else. Outdoors she's a complete ADD dog, even though she's an absolute pig I can't keep her attention even with yummy treats. If she doesn't get a treat within a half a second she's off again looking elsewhere and sniffing. I've tried penalty yards and abrupt changes of direction with her and all that does is cause me to drag her around. I tried taking one step at a time again, for 20 minutes, and while I did manage to get a few times where she didn't take off with every step, that was maybe 2 times out of 50. Basically, I can't seem to get her attention and she's far more interested in smells than me and even hot dog. I also think she's not the brightest bulb in the pack, when I do the leave it game with hand closing on treat, most of the time when I close my hand she starts sniffing around on the ground trying to figure out where it went...

Well, bad day today. Just got back from walking my collie and ended up pretty much dragging him home. There were dogs and people everywhere, and he was just out of control, lunging and snarling and snapping. His leash aggression seems to be getting worse, and his threshold for reacting seems to pretty much be "is there another dog in sight within a mile?".

Really frustrated right now. As the weather gets nicer it's going to be impossible to walk him without encountering another dog unless I stick to 6 am and midnight walks. Without walks he gets crazy, yowls and scampers everywhere tearing up the wood floors. I'm feeling stuck. I don't know what to do about this, all the advice I've read says to work with his threashold, but he doesn't seem to have one. If we're at one end of the park and he sees a dog across the way off in the distance he still flips out. If another dog comes close I'm scared to death and I'm sure they are too because he looks like he's about to rip their dogs head off. When he's actually met other dogs on leash he's been fine, but if they're 20 feet away he acts like he's going to kill them.

The only thought I have right now is to start taking him to the dog park. Not to it, but near it. And just let him completely freak out from a block away until he tires himself out and calms down. Keep doing that until he's calm, then start taking a few steps closer at a time. But, I kind of have the feeling this will just involve him completely freaking out every single trip...

[Lolas_Dad]

Originally Posted by gnarfle

The only thought I have right now is to start taking him to the dog park. Not to it, but near it. And just let him completely freak out from a block away until he tires himself out and calms down. Keep doing that until he's calm, then start taking a few steps closer at a time. But, I kind of have the feeling this will just involve him completely freaking out every single trip...

Actually that might be a good idea. It will desensitize him to other dogs after a period of time. What I would do is take him near the park like you said. Let him tire himself out. Do not leave the spot that he is barking at until he is calm. The next day take him again and let him tire himself out again. Again don't take him away until he is calm. What you also want to do is to see if you can bring him closer each time. When you get to the point that he can be right at the fence of the park outside then that would be the time to bring him in the park as long as he handles being outside of the fence ok when he is calm.

[gnarfle]

That was kind of my thought. The problem with our walks is that I can't really set up an interaction, it's a hilly cemetary with lots of corners and trees and I keep getting caught off guard. I figure, the dog park, all the dogs are confined to a certain area so I can control the distance without having to worry about the other dogs getting closer. Worth a shot at least! Granted it's going to look horrible to passer bys, but I need to nip this in the bud and not worry about what everyone else thinks...

[rosemaryninja]

Actually I'm not sure you want to do that. It's good that the dog park lets you regulate the distance between him and the other dogs -- that's very, very useful for training out leash reactivity. But ideally, you don't want him to cross his threshold and start freaking out at all. You want to find that distance where he begins to get antsy...then redirect his attention and turn and walk in the opposite direction. Once you do that, turn around again and walk towards the dogs...rinse and repeat.

Letting him stand there and go ballistic will eventually desensitise him to other dogs...much like you might be desensitised to big hairy spiders if you were locked in a room with 10 of them for an indefinite amount of time.

[gnarfle]

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

Actually I'm not sure you want to do that. It's good that the dog park lets you regulate the distance between him and the other dogs -- that's very, very useful for training out leash reactivity. But ideally, you don't want him to cross his threshold and start freaking out at all. You want to find that distance where he begins to get antsy...then redirect his attention and turn and walk in the opposite direction. Once you do that, turn around again and walk towards the dogs...rinse and repeat.

Letting him stand there and go ballistic will eventually desensitise him to other dogs...much like you might be desensitised to big hairy spiders if you were locked in a room with 10 of them for an indefinite amount of time.

Well, the problem is during normal walks I can't do much, the other dogs come at us and sometimes they are off leash. I figured the dog park would let me get farther away and the only have his position to worry about, not the other dog.

I'm also confused about the walk away and go back thing. He really doesn't seem to have a threshold for other dogs. As far as I've been able to tell it's either there is another dog in sight (even 1/8 a mile away) or not. The turn around and walk the other way thing doesn't work. I read that advice somewhere and they said, oh your dog can't freak out and lunge while briskly walking. Well I hate to tell that person, they sure can! All that really happens when I try and turn to walk away is I drag my dog chocking backwards. There is no walking involved, I'm going one way and he's going the other gagging and choking. I'm stronger, so I win, but he's doing nothing that amounts to walking... Even if I go of at 90 degrees he still doesn't just walk with me, he's pointed at the dog/person and lunges every few seconds with me dragging him along choking.

[rosemaryninja]

Yes, that's why I said that the dog park is a good place to desensitize your dog... because of the fixed distance between you and the other dog, and the lack of nasty surprises.

What I don't agree with, however, is standing in one spot and letting your dog rage out till he gets too tired... that doesn't cure the underlying problem. If your dog can only be 1/8 of a mile away from another dog without freaking out, that is the distance you need to start at from the dog park, instead of bringing him closer which will likely exacerbate the problem.

Dogs CAN freak out and walk briskly. And yes, once he has gone past his threshold and started going nuts, I know it's impossible to just turn around and start walking calmly. I've experienced the exact same thing.

As I said in my last post, however, you need to redirect your dog BEFORE he starts freaking out. Your dog doesn't walk merrily and calmly, suddenly see another dog and go into crazy mode. He walks merrily, sees the other dog... then as he recognises the silhouette of another dog and registers what it is, his ears will prick up, his stance will tense, the corners of his mouth may twitch. These are subtle changes in his body language that you need to pick up. They will only be there for a very short time before he starts spazzing out, so that is the window of time in which you need to redirect him. If you get the timing down right, your dog NEVER goes into "freak out" mode.

[animalsafe]

Hi gnarfle

I read your updates and comments with great interest as I understand your desire to use positive reinforcement methods only but I cannot help but notice that your process now has degenerated into the usage of stressful aversive punishment because of various often common failures in the process. My question is are you concerned (or aware of the possibility) about any injury that may result to your dog from all of the pressure across your dogs trachea? You might want to evaluate this possibility and possibly switch to a harness or head halter so as to eliminate the choking aversive. I would however be concerned with using a head halter like a gentle Leader that can result in deliverly of aversives also and are not recommended for highly reactive heavy pullers as neck and spine injury is possible in addition to friction rubs from the face straps. Because of this I would suggest that a body harness would be less likely to result in injury and the resultant use of aversives in your situation and training method preference.

good luck in your training..

cheers

[gnarfle]

I have been concerned about the collars and how they constrict on the throat creating negative associations. My collie walks pretty well now so I'm not terribly worried with him, however when he gets reactive it is an issue. My beagle will hang herself on it and it worries me. Neither of them were very fond of a head halter and it didn't seem to do much with my beagle anyway. I am considering one of the no pull harnesses that clip in the front. It seems like this would avoid the harness encouraging pulling while meanwhile allowing me to hold them if they get reactive without causing throat damage or tightness that can increase the aggression.

Today's walks were good for both dogs. My collie is really getting it now and I even managed to get him to sit through *most* of a person walking by within 10 feet. Took a lot of hot dog though... But he's very no pull now, I'd say at least 75% of our walk is on a loose leash. One thing I found extremely helpful with him was transitioning from treating for sitting at a stop to treating for walking by my side. I started out by not treating when he sat, but taking a few steps and then giving the treat while he was by my side looking for it. Since by this point he expected a treat after he sat calmly when I stopped, he was looking to me for it and I had his completely attention. Over time I've gradually delayed it more and more and now require trotting by my side for 5-10 seconds before he gets a treat. He now no longer gets treats for sitting when I stop, yet does it almost every time automatically.

My beagle and I had a good success today as well. I tried the same technique with her but wasn't getting anywhere, since when I take a step she's off again whether there is a treat or not. One step and she completely forgets about the treat and is back on the hunt. So I decided to take it a bit slower, and I figured why not throw more hot dog at the problem? So I went back to one step at a time. Initially she would take off every time I took a step. I would then wait until she returned to my side and treat. I did this probably 20 times before she would start to look at me after I took a step, expecting a treat. I did this a bunch more times and finally got her to the point where I could take a step and she would take one step with me, looking for the treat. Then I stretched it out to two steps at a time, then three. This worked well, I walked a good long stretch with her staying by my side with her complete attention on me. Yay! Then I ran out of hot dog... But it's a good start.