[rambler]

Originally Posted by Peggy Swager

For anyone who uses these training devices, be aware that they don't substitute for knowing what you are doing. Sure, sometimes the collar will work okay, but there is a gamble when using them if you are not an experienced dog behaviorist.

Very true.

e-collars are a powerful training tool, and can work extraordinarily well even in the hands of the inexperienced...but they can also backfire, such as my experience this morning at the dog park when I tried to use it on a different behavior.

"With great power, comes great responsibility".

[Marsh Muppet]

Originally Posted by Lonewolfblue

So, what's wrong with keeping a dog on-leash all the time? There's nothing wrong with it. I only have my dogs off-leash in safe, fenced areas. I don't care how good their recall is, I've seen dogs with excellent recalls get hit by cars, or run off to something because it finds it more appeasing than the owner.

The question was one of personal opinion. My opinion is that it is more humane to allow a dog broad freedom, but only once he has learned the limits of said freedom. If that requires some punitive correction to accomplish, I have no problem with that as long as it's fairly applied and tailored to the individual dog's capacity to tolerate it.

No training or hardware is foolproof. Fences have holes that weren't there yesterday, leashes break, their clips get fouled, or the springs get worn out. We can never eliminate all risks. However I'm quite confidant that I can call my dog off a running deer or a porcupine.

[rambler]

Originally Posted by Lonewolfblue

If the collar is used right away and the dog has become collar-wise, it doesn't matter how long you don't use it afterwards, dogs are very smart. It's like my Rally training with Betty, I tried something with her that we have not even worked on in over 6 months (not ecollar related, I never used the collar in any training), and she actually did it much better now than she did when we were in training. Dogs don't just forget.

Yes, I realize I should have put the collar on her and waited a few days or even longer before using it. There's nothing I can do about that now, except hope that she didn't make the connection between the ecollar and the stimulation, and by phasing it out slowly I hope to accomplish just that.

I think I'll leave the collar off since I removed it for the first time in a week to give her a bath, and take her for a walk later and see if she's any different. Then I'll put it back on her and not remove it until long after it hasn't been used at all to correct an unwanted offleash behavior.

Your example, about using a different training correction and getting more success isn't really the same thing as the dog making the connection between the ecollar and the stimulation..you are using a technique that worked well for the dog before, so it's going to work well any time you use it, whether its a day, a year or 10 years...although I agree, dogs have great memories and once they do make some sort of an association it's probabably "game over".

I got a dog once before, many years ago..when he was 4 months old..whenever he would see someone holding a broom he would freak out..something must have happened with him and a broom during his first few months. He NEVER changed in all the years I had him in regard to a broom.

[Marsh Muppet]

Originally Posted by rambler

But...

Even though she would come to my feet at the call of her name, she wouldn't sit on command at the dog park. So I gave her a shock after she ignored the sit command. She got confused, and started to walk away from me and not listen even to the command to wait. Because...she associated me with being "a safe place"..all the commands had to do with her coming to me or at least not going away from me.

Suddenly she's right at my feet and she gets shocked..Not good. I instantly stopped trying to correct that one with the ecollar and I don't think I will EVER use the ecollar on this dog to train behaviors that are not related to her coming to me. I will continue to use positive reinforcement at the dog park using some very tempting treats including hamburger pieces and sausage, because at the park, her regular treats aren't tempting enough.

Comments are welcome.

This is why it's important to properly condition a dog to the collar for all the commands you intend to use the collar to enforce. The danger is that you may inadvertently correct the dog and untrain certain responses. You will untrain the dog with the collar in a heap less time than it originally took to train her. If you plan to continue using the collar, you should not be experimenting with it. Get with an experienced trainer or get one of the sequential training programs for CC. It is important that you understand normal "lagging" responses, what they look like, and how to work through them. It's not an "easy button"

[rambler]

Originally Posted by Marsh Muppet

This is why it's important to properly condition a dog to the collar for all the commands you intend to use the collar to enforce. The danger is that you may inadvertently correct the dog and untrain certain responses. You will untrain the dog with the collar in a heap less time than it originally took to train her. If you plan to continue using the collar, you should not be experimenting with it. Get with an experienced trainer or get one of the sequential training programs for CC. It is important that you understand normal "lagging" responses, what they look like, and how to work through them. It's not an "easy button"

Well like I said, for all offlesh commands relating to coming to me or at least not going away from me (the WAIT) command, she has been perfect.

It's only when I tried to use the ecollar for the SIT command in the middle of a dog park filled with distractions did I realize my mistake, and I do not plan to use the collar for that ever again with this dog...even if it means bringing a bag of hamburger and sausage pieces and a very hungry dog to the dog park next time.

I intend to ONLY use the ecollar for commands that do not undermine my dogs knowledge that I am a "safe place" and bad things will not happen when she's near me.

[Lonewolfblue]

Originally Posted by rambler

Your example, about using a different training correction and getting more success isn't really the same thing as the dog making the connection between the ecollar and the stimulation..

I wasn't trying to connect using the ecollar as being the same as a different training technique. What I was trying to get across is memory. Dog's do have excellent memory, and once it has learned something, they don't forget. It's why it's always harder to untrain a learned bad behavior than it is to train a new behavior. Just stating that dog's don't forget, if they learned the connection of the shock with the collar. And yes, they can be worked out of being collarwise, but will take some time, and sounds like you have a good plan in place.

[Marsh Muppet]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Again, she did not say she would keep the dog on leash forever. I don't know how you derived this statement from Pepper's quote. I think you're reading into it. In fact, she goes on to say it would "stink" if she couldn't phase out the leash, which is in alignment with your thoughts, though for different reasons.

Perhaps I'm connecting dots that aren't there, but there is no other way to read her statement. To wit:

If I had a dog that was not reliable, than I would keep them on a leash for how ever many years it took to get them reliable, if they never became reliable then, well, that stinks.

I think we can safely assume she would allow the dog off leash once it died, so "forever" may not be precisely accurate. Maybe Pepper could elucidate?

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Perhaps pain is the more humane alternative in your case, but you can only speak for yourself. It is not a reason to advocate this method, nor is pain justified by its use alone.

I was only speaking for myself and my opinion on the relative humaneness of various methods. Lots of people have no reservations about broadly labeling aversive methods as cruel. Some people think it cruel to yank a bitches uterus, or cut off a dogs testicles for no more compelling reason than human convenience. I have no problem with that either, so I suppose it's all a matter of perspective.

[Elana55]

Originally Posted by rambler

I got a dog once before, many years ago..when he was 4 months old..whenever he would see someone holding a broom he would freak out..something must have happened with him and a broom during his first few months. He NEVER changed in all the years I had him in regard to a broom.

I am going to reiterate something and you can take from it what you will.

I had a cow years back who would go absolutely NUTZ when you came near her with a pitch fork. She was purchased as a late lactation 2 year old cow (named Paula). We ASSUMED she had been abused or hand an incident with a ptichfork.. her reaction was absolutely over the top. The fork was used to feed her and to clean the manure off the platfrom behind her. We never touched her with the fork.

She had a heifer calf (Ann) which we raised and bred and put in the herd when she freshened. Ann had never been abused in her life. Her Mother had complications from mastits and had been sold before Ann freshened. Ann was NEVER with her Mother (calves are separated from the mother cow at birth and are raised with other calves so they never know their Mother.. we bucket fed the calves milk or milk replacer). I am saying this to show that there was no learned behavior here.

When she was in the milking herd, if we went near her with a pitch fork she went as nutz over it as her Mother did. Ann had NEVER had an encounter with a fork of any kind. She was never abused (we used Novacaine to dehorn calves). She was as nuts about that fork as her Mother had been.

The point of this story is animals can have fear of things and that fear may be something inherent in the animal and have nothing to do with something learned. Fear is not always the source of somethign rationally explained.. even in cows!

Your dog may have had a broom incident and that may have been the source of his fear. Your dog may NOT have had a broom incident and may have simply had a fear of this object and no previous experience.

E collars can create fear of things, no doubt. If the dog associates the shock with the WRONG thing, well then, Houston, you got a problem.

E Collars are a tool in the dog training tool box. I think they are way near the bottom.. to be used when you have tried a lot of other things first.

[Dogsareme]

Shaping is actually the steps to training the dog to do a behavior, not giving a command and reward the given behavior.

With shaping you start off with small increasements of the behavior you are working towards. Say you wanted to teach your dog to go get his leash and carry it to you. First you would have to make your dog recognize the spot the leash is placed. You would reward your dog for going to that place. Then once he understand that action you would reward him for touching his leash. Now that he understands that you reward him for grabbing his leash and so forth. The things with Shaping is that you are allowed to do NOTHING, that's right, NOTHING to influence your dogs behavior. You let him think it out for himself. You are allowed to reward the steps and the progress as you see fit, but you cannot point him to the object, you cannot place it in his mouth, it's all about free thinking and problem solving.

Think of it this way.........you have a new job, you walk into the job and every step of the way someone is there TELLING you what you should do and why what your doing is not proper. But what if you are left to your own devices because no matter how you do the job the boss knows it will get done even if you only get a little bit done each day, but the end result is the same..........everyone gets what they want. Your boss is happy and most importantly YOU are happy. That is shaping.


Shaping may be something you can use for a recall? What all have you tried?

[Jen D]

I believe in the ecollar for field training but for obedience or behaviors it should be last resort IMO.

I had a terrible experience with the ecollar using it with one of my American Bulldogs named Kado. He started acting aggressive, gone through a few windows, and I couldn't leave him alone with anyone in the house but me. This was a well trained dog that just seemed to change over night. I train myself but couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong so I hired a trainer that had years of experience to help me after I got him cleared from the vet.

We worked with Kado for a month and didn't get anywhere, the trainer said I was doing everything right but gave me some tips to try. He kept coming weekly then he mentioned the ecollar. I agreed because this was the dogs last chance.

Off I went to another trainer that specialized in ecollars with the dog had a few lessons so I knew how to use it. Home on my own I kept it behind me and when he went for the window I pushed the button. That dog who weighed more then I turned around and came at me faster then any other dog has ever in the past. I was able to grab a kitchen chair and kept that between us till he calmed down but needless to say I didn't use it again.

It turned out that Kado had cancer and we put him down but I will never forget the reaction from that ecollar.

[RBark]

My first experience with an ecollar was terrible too.

I was using an underground fence for Ollie. I put it on him at the lowest setting. I followed the instructions to the dot. The part where you teach them the border and they have to experience a shock.

All it took was one shock, on the lowest setting. For a week after, anytime I went out in the backyard with him, he would cower and hide in the dog house totally afraid of me.

Some dogs just are not meant to use an ecollar, and I wouldn't believe for a minute anyone who called it just a tingle. What it means to me, and what it means to my dog are two entirely different things. My decision to use a ecollar for Kobe's recall was made with this experience in mind. So, it is not an easy decision for me.

[wvasko]

JenD
I have preached this on a couple other threads about strange reactions that dogs will do, I have seen them go 6 ft straight up, I have seen them actually attack the ground and bite and tear up chunks of ground and last but not least attack anybody near them. These are facts and yet again and again on forum there is a week-end warrior who uses the collar on one or two dogs and are absolute experts on the collars. There was a person on the attack the bird thread that advised OP to put a collar on a Chihuahua mix and as far as I'm concerned he could have told OP to just dropkick the little dog through a window. I will guarantee the dog would not attack a bird after being kicked through the window. Sorry for the vent I am done talking about e-collars today.

[rambler]

Originally Posted by Elana55

Your dog may have had a broom incident and that may have been the source of his fear. Your dog may NOT have had a broom incident and may have simply had a fear of this object and no previous experience.

That makes a whole bunch of sense, especially when I got that dog when she was only a puppy, not more than 12 weeks old..I have always thought, how can that dog have gotten traumatized by a broom when he was so young?

I think you pegged it..there WAS no broom incident.

[spotted nikes]

Originally Posted by Jen D

I believe in the ecollar for field training but for obedience or behaviors it should be last resort IMO.

I had a terrible experience with the ecollar using it with one of my American Bulldogs named Kado. He started acting aggressive, gone through a few windows, and I couldn't leave him alone with anyone in the house but me. This was a well trained dog that just seemed to change over night. I train myself but couldn't figure out what I was doing wrong so I hired a trainer that had years of experience to help me after I got him cleared from the vet.

We worked with Kado for a month and didn't get anywhere, the trainer said I was doing everything right but gave me some tips to try. He kept coming weekly then he mentioned the ecollar. I agreed because this was the dogs last chance.

Off I went to another trainer that specialized in ecollars with the dog had a few lessons so I knew how to use it. Home on my own I kept it behind me and when he went for the window I pushed the button. That dog who weighed more then I turned around and came at me faster then any other dog has ever in the past. I was able to grab a kitchen chair and kept that between us till he calmed down but needless to say I didn't use it again.

It turned out that Kado had cancer and we put him down but I will never forget the reaction from that ecollar.

The instruction books that come with the e-collars carry a warning NOT to use it with aggressive dogs. I don't know if that is recent or not.

[Inga]

I have on more then one occasion seen dogs react like Jens dog did. Unfortunately I have seen many good dogs completely messed up with the use of e-collars in the hands of "the weekend warriors" like wvasko spoke of. The collars have their place but I feel they are best left to people who have had some training in the proper use of them.

[golfer]

Just to share, I had a Choc. Lab supposed to be one of the easier dogs to train. This was our 2nd, the 1st was nearly perfect in every way.
Anyway, Rosie was a hard headed female who would only pay attention if she wanted. She was very smart and lerned quickly. She also learned quickly that once off leash the world was hers.
As a last resort, I put a ecollar on her. Long story short, she loved the collar. When I got the collar out to put on her, she went crazy. She patiently waited while I put it on her. It meant she could go out and run her tail off. She learned to respond when I called and was a great dog.
I don't dare tell you how I worked with her, because it would probably be different with your dog.
The ecollar is not for a meek animal.
Also since your dog responds with a lead, I suggest you work on that first and a lot.
I used the collar only when off the lead, and she only got buzzed when her behavior was negative to my command.
I believe you can ruin a good dog with a ecollar faster than you can train one with it.
Spend as much time researching as you can and be sure your commands are clear and understood by your dog. Use no more stim than necessary and try other avenues first.

[DogGoneGood]

Thought I'd give an update on the subject, as I kind of left everyone high and dry


I've decided to continue working Linkin on the long line until the snow clears and I can take him to the fenced in area up at Sowchea School (the only walking distance fenced place around here). I took the boys up there the other day hoping I could give them some run around play time in the fenced area but the gates are frozen solid in the snow (open) and the whole area is covered in at least 2 and a half feet of snow still (apparently the kids never play in there in the winter)...

I did try the e-collar for about a week and I did see improvements. However, no matter how hard I try I can't be fast enough to correct on a higher level when he BOLTS, and without a prong collar on when he bolts he takes me with him. I damaged my knee pretty bad last month when he did this. I'm pretty good by now on how to hold the leash properly and what to do when the dog bolts like that (how to move with him but pull back at the same time rather than stand still where I'm bound to end up on my butt), but unfortunately with all the ice and snow doing this didn't help much as when I stepped forward I slipped and my knee jarred. I have really bad knees to begin with and it was not fun to be on crutches, yet again... so I decided to take this type of training back up once the ice and snow is gone. My plan is that if I can work him in the fenced area with the long line and e-collar if he bolts I can drop the line without any worry of him running away, getting hit by a car etc. etc.

I've also ordered a video about e-collar training from Leerburg (whom I've read a lot of his articles and for the most part we have a lot of the same views on training). It should be here either the end of this week or the begining of next. So I'll continue doing my research on the collar, and continue working with Linkin on the long line but on a prong collar and not an e-collar until the snow is gone.

Thanks again for everyone's advice and input, it's really appreciated.

[golfer]

DogGoneGood: Thanks for the update. IMO, you probably will not be quick enough with the ecollar while the dog is on a tether. The ecollar may work best when the dog is beyond the long line which fives you more time to make the command and for the dog to respond. You MUST make certain the dog understnds your command and has time to respond correctly. Your book may be very helpful.
While the dog is on a tether, you might consider the prong collar which I have never used, or since I can't think of what the actual name is, muzzle connection for you leash. I have had good response with this without breaking the dog down. It may be better for your knees as well as when the dog pulls, it turns the muzzle back to you. If the dog is too difficult, the prong collar may be the only way to go.
Your job is to make pulling on the leash uncomfortable enough for the dog to stop. I don't know how determined you dog is, but you must take strong enough measures to make it stop before it does you harm.
I hope I did not miss lead you fwith my statement on the ecollar. It can work very well, but you must be careful how you use it. I think the book will be very helpful.
Best wishes, be the alpha dog, make Lincin mind. Be smarter than him.

[DogGoneGood]

Originally Posted by golfer

DogGoneGood: Thanks for the update. IMO, you probably will not be quick enough with the ecollar while the dog is on a tether. The ecollar may work best when the dog is beyond the long line which fives you more time to make the command and for the dog to respond. You MUST make certain the dog understnds your command and has time to respond correctly. Your book may be very helpful.
While the dog is on a tether, you might consider the prong collar which I have never used, or since I can't think of what the actual name is, muzzle connection for you leash. I have had good response with this without breaking the dog down. It may be better for your knees as well as when the dog pulls, it turns the muzzle back to you. If the dog is too difficult, the prong collar may be the only way to go.
Your job is to make pulling on the leash uncomfortable enough for the dog to stop. I don't know how determined you dog is, but you must take strong enough measures to make it stop before it does you harm.
I hope I did not miss lead you fwith my statement on the ecollar. It can work very well, but you must be careful how you use it. I think the book will be very helpful.
Best wishes, be the alpha dog, make Lincin mind. Be smarter than him.

Yeah, I use a prong collar on him. I went to Canada West Canine Centre in the fall of 2007 to learn to be a dog trainer and at first we tried without any training collar but he was the worst dog I'd ever encountered (8 months old and ZERO previous training - I got him from someone who kept him in their backyard 24/7)... then we tried the choke chain and he nearly dislocated my shoulder, it didn't even phase him. Finally we tried the prong collar and it worked like a dream. It's the only tool I've tried that has been able to get through to him, but of course he knows the difference between a prong collar and his regular collar. I've been slowly trying to phase it out over the past year and he's good now without it when I get him to heel, sit or down, and a closer stay he listens to but from a distance or a recall he doesn't listen so great, ESPECIALLY off leash. On leash, and especially after working him so much with the long line and prong collar, he's been getting better, but I wouldn't hold my breath for him to listen off leash.

That other tool you're thinking of is a Halti, or Gentle Leader. I do have one, somewhere... and have never tried it on Linkin. It's a personal prefrence is all. I tried it with Coal and all he did was mope about.


The prong collar I own isn't like the ones you find in most pet stores (or at least that I've seen in most pet stores), it's ordered from Canvas Back Pets and they have light links, and I love it. It's not this big bulky thing that adds a lot of weight to the dogs neck, like my old prong collar. The size difference is amazing, and I really don't see the need for such a HUGE collar at all.

Yeah, I think this Leerburg video should help me out a lot. I really like Ed Frawley's style. He kind of trains like I do, a trainer who's not afraid to use both ends of the spectrum. I have come across a few things I haven't agreed on, but I think I'm smart enough to recognize those things and "take it or leave it"