[DogGoneGood]

Originally Posted by wvasko

DGG

Meanwhile, if you are set on using the collar, what is holding you back? If it doesn't work, you can stop using it, right?

I have got to agree with elana on this one and I make it a point not to give advice on use of an aversive. You are a dog trainer. PM me if you need anything.

I just wanted to understand it's abilities, that's all.

Thanks Wvasko, I will send you a message probably within this week to give you a bit of an update, as I have started using it.

I just like learning new things about dogs, anything about dogs. So if I seem like I ask a lot of questions even if my mind is set on something, that's the only reason for it. I'm just curious and love learning. No harm in that I don't think

[Squeeker]

DGG,

I know what you are going through! I also have a dog that has not caught on to recall. I have read "control unleashed" and it was very helpful. I was also recommended "when pigs fly", and I just finished that one. Both books have great ideas to use with dogs that have a difficult time focusing.

However, like you, we have also purchased an e-collar. Libby has been wearing hers around the house for about a month; we haven't used it yet.

We are going to take some more time and work on her recall using some of the techniques outlined in both books, and see how it goes from there.

[reafe]

I couldn't read the entire replys but for the person that posted this...I too have a dog that I got at the pound and she came with so much issues it blows my mind. Really hard to train. Regardless of method, this is more of time taking its course than teaching method.

I use an e-collar. The stim is suppose to be like a check.

So take a leash, you check, the dog knows that stress on his neck came from you.

You take NO! He knows it came from you.

So with the e-collar, the dog has to know that it came from you.

You need a good collar with many levels to reach the correct level. Don't get the one from Walmart that has 5 levels.

So to condition the dog that the stim came from you you can follow this method. Ignore the "that's so harsh" stuff. So do your heel into a sit. Do it a little harder than normal. You'll be the judge. Just a little.

Then you transition to a check that's enough to correct his behavior. This check is a normal check that you normally do. The setting of the e-collar should match this intesity.

Then when you do a check, you do it softer than your normal and you hit stim on your e-collar.

Then over the course of training him, you can mix the regular check and e-check.

Then now, he knows the e-collar correction came from you. If not, you dog will freeze up and go crazy. But if you follow this method, he'll know it came from you.

But if you are going to use it for off leash, you have to practice on a long line first and introduce the e-collar as described above, then do it off leash. Or else he'll think that stim came from an unknown source.

Point of the post, e-collar is a check from you, it's an extended leash. Thus, go through the process relating the leash and e-collar as one. In some teachings don't, they just stim till the dog does it and turn it off. Escape training. Real funky.

[DogGoneGood]

Thanks for all replies and help.

I'm looking into options and am going to get Control Unleashed.

I won't be on for a few days because the power went out on the mountian so I have to use dial up for a while, and I REEEEALLY hate dial up.

So I just thought I'd come on and thank everyone for the pleantiful information, it's really helpful, and I'll update you in a few days.

[Squeeker]

But if you are going to use it for off leash, you have to practice on a long line first and introduce the e-collar as described above, then do it off leash. Or else he'll think that stim came from an unknown source.

Point of the post, e-collar is a check from you, it's an extended leash. Thus, go through the process relating the leash and e-collar as one. In some teachings don't, they just stim till the dog does it and turn it off. Escape training. Real funky.

I have read many articles, watched many videos, and talked to many people about e-collar training, and this is the method that I am most comfortable with. If we do resort to the e-collar, we will be using this method.

And ditto on the quality comment - I spent almost $300 for a dogtra 260. 100+ levels of stim, completely waterproof, 1/2 mile range, guaranteed for life, lithium ion battery.

[rambler]

Originally Posted by reafe

So with the e-collar, the dog has to know that it came from you.

Then now, he knows the e-collar correction came from you. If not, you dog will freeze up and go crazy. But if you follow this method, he'll know it came from you.

But if you are going to use it for off leash, you have to practice on a long line first and introduce the e-collar as described above, then do it off leash. Or else he'll think that stim came from an unknown source.

I don't necessarily agree with this.

My experience with the e-collar over the past week has been nothing short of amazing. My dog, like many others, is great on leash, "ok" off leash, but when another dog or squirrel or sometimes an interesting person goes by, she would bolt, and she was getting worse not better.

I clipped on the new e-collar..took her for the usual walk, she saw a distraction, went to bolt, I said "No!", she of course ignored me and I hit her with a stim. She yelped, stopped, looked at me, I then said "over here!", she hesitated, I stim'd, she yelped and came right to me.

I have had to use the e-collar maybe a dozen times and adusted the setting a few times before I ended up at 7, and now I have a dog that walks with me in an invisible circle no more than maybe 15 feet radius, and if I want her back to me I call her by name, if I want her to change direction I say "this way", and if I want her to stop I say "wait". She does not attempt to chase a distraction unless I say "ok".

She had a "good" general idea of these commands before the e-collar, and like I said now she is perfect..well, almost, I had to zap her on our walk earlier tonite when she started wandering away and decided to try to ignore me. That was the first time in the last 2 days and I only have been using it a week.

She walks right back to the house with me and waits while I open the garage door. Before this she would have bolted while the garage was opening. I reward her with a treat about 30% of the time when she listens to me. The combination of positive reinforcement (treat) and the avoidance of the negative stimulation is incredibly powerful to a dog, and works well if they know what you want.

But in deference to the above poster who I quoted, I do not believe the dog need to know the stim "came from you". It just needs to know the command came from you and if it doesn't follow it something bad is going to happen.

This "collarwise" stuff...seems to be an unecessary worry. I used the ecollar from the moment I put it on her, I plan to leave it on her until I am finished with it, say in a month from now. Sure if it was on and off all the time she might make the connection but if you just leave it there and eventually just stop using it the dog is just going to forget about it altogether.

[Pepper]

I hit her with a stim. She yelped

This sounds...so wrong. The whole idea of an ELECTRIC SHOCK COLLAR sounds wrong. Say the words out loud...electric...shock...collar. You are electrically...shocking an animal that you care for, and love. You are causing pain to something you care about.

I just can't understand it. It doesn't seem right. There are hundreds of other training methods out there, I don't see why people choose this method.

If this painful method of training was never invented, then you would have to find a better and more humane way to teach something, rather then resorting to shocking something.

Someone enlighten me as to why people will inflict pain onto a dog. Is it because it is an animal? Is it because it is not a person?

Would you change your mind if the dog all of a sudden spoke up and said, "OUCH that hurt, please stop doing that!"

Would that make it harder to..."stim" them?

[TooneyDogs]

They should call it by the right name.....100 levels of pain. Like all electronic devices they just put fancy new names (stimulation) to it.

[rambler]

Originally Posted by Pepper

This sounds...so wrong. The whole idea of an ELECTRIC SHOCK COLLAR sounds wrong. Say the words out loud...electric...shock...collar. You are electrically...shocking an animal that you care for, and love. You are causing pain to something you care about.

I just can't understand it. It doesn't seem right. There are hundreds of other training methods out there, I don't see why people choose this method.

If this painful method of training was never invented, then you would have to find a better and more humane way to teach something, rather then resorting to shocking something.

Someone enlighten me as to why people will inflict pain onto a dog. Is it because it is an animal? Is it because it is not a person?

Would you change your mind if the dog all of a sudden spoke up and said, "OUCH that hurt, please stop doing that!"

Would that make it harder to..."stim" them?

If the ecollar would make my kids do their homework I would use it on them too. The idea is, it's a loving relationship but never forget who's in charge.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

They should call it by the right name.....100 levels of pain. Like all electronic devices they just put fancy new names (stimulation) to it.

I'll have to ask you then, if you had a dog that you could never reliably trust off leash, and this is the only way you could give it freedom during hikes, trips, and so on. Would it still be so wrong?

Because that is actually the dilemma I am in. Kobe, my Husky/Malamute mix, currently has perfect recall on a 50' lead. He has perfect recall in a unfenced environment with no distractions (I posted pictures of his first and last off leash hike a while back.)

I've worked on him with his recall since March. Kobe is the dog that, during summer, I lost lost sight of for five minutes and he was found four hours later running 14 miles down a highway. He would not do that now with all the training I've done, but it's an idea of his capability.

His weaknesses are wildlife and other dogs or people. I can recall him off dogs and people a fair amount of times, but not always. Since his recall is not perfect, that leaves me two choices: I can explore alternatives from Positive training, in this case, the e-collar. Or I can keep him on leash, never to be off leash ever.

I can, and have been doing, the latter. The e-collar introduces a possibility of allowing him the freedom I know he would love to have. The only benefit a e-collar has for me is to be able to see him free. For him, it means the world, literally.

For all I know, the e-collar may fail me and I would not be able to use it. I don't WANT to harm him, and the emotional turmoil I've had in the last month leading up to this decision has not been pleasant for me. I adore Kobe. I call him Buddha for a reason, he is such a lovely dog. He means the world to me, and the idea of hurting him makes me sick to the stomach.

But the other side of me is telling me, that ideally properly done, it may be a temporary thing I only need to use short term. Once it's reinforced strong enough, I may have ten years of never having to use it. I cannot deny that possibility to myself as well. Am I to deny Kobe this possibility just because I cannot sit down with him, pat him on the head and tell him "Kobe, you can be free, I won't have to do this if you just come back!"

I cannot with good conscience ignore that either. So I'm at a loss, I don't know whether I am doing what is ultimately right, or if I am looking for an excuse. Some days I feel I'm doing what's right by my dog, other days I feel like I'm just hurting him.

I have no intent of using a e-collar on him for anything else. Teaching heel? Sit? Down? All these so minor things. That's not worth using a e-collar on. I'd be just fine with a dog that would not sit on command for whatever reason, shocking him is not worth that. Nevertheless that's an irrelevant thing to think about for me, I've taught Kobe to heel, to sit and down, to distance down and sit, to stay, shake, high five, and many others using Positive Reinforcement methods. That's easy as pie. All I wish is to be able to let him romp and play and explore like I am able to allow Priscilla to do. Priscilla has a phenomenal recall and I have 100% faith in her off leash. I wish I could grant Kobe that faith.

So am I still so evil for wishing to grant my dog that? Am I so wrong or so self-deluding? Am I just trying to hurt the dog I love?

I do understand I can't speak for everyone who uses a e-collar. I am not saying all this as a defense for those who use e-collars, because I have no way of knowing anyone's put the amount of thought and emotion and love into this decision that I have. I have no way of knowing if anyone's put anywhere as much effort in training their dog's recall as I have. So I do understand whatever answer given to me may not apply to everyone else. But I ask this because that's the decision I've had to make over the last four months. So it is important to me to know if I am truly wrong for what I wish.

Originally Posted by rambler

If the ecollar would make my kids do their homework I would use it on them too. The idea is, it's a loving relationship but never forget who's in charge.

This, I disagree with. I have no intent of being in charge of Kobe, I adore him for who he is and I have no reason to tell him who's boss. I want to offer him freedom, as someone who is important to me. I don't want to bully him.

[Pepper]

If I had a dog that was not reliable, than I would keep them on a leash for how ever many years it took to get them reliable, if they never became reliable then, well, that stinks.

Dogs aren't proggramed to do everything we want, and if we aren't communicating it to them in such a way that they never get it, then it's not their fault, and there's no reason to shock some sense into them.

Some dogs just can't be off leash. And even with a shock collar, if you forget it, or it stops working, or malfunctions, and he doesn't have a recall, then your in a tight spot.

Because that's the downfall of electronic devices, they don't always work.

And it doesn't make sense to make a dog that won't come back, shock him into coming back.

I don't see why someone would treat a dog any different then they would treat a child. I'm not anthropomorphizing, I'm saying, if a child were to wander off in situations, then you wouldn't put them in situations that would make them wander, some parents even keep their kids on leashes, they wouldn't shock them, and in all reality, that could be considered abuse, yet shocking a dog is all fine and dandy, it's just a dog, yeah it hurts, but it will make things better in the long run.

Your still inflicting pain, plain and simple. No one can sugar coat it.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Pepper

If I had a dog that was not reliable, than I would keep them on a leash for how ever many years it took to get them reliable, if they never became reliable then, well, that stinks.

Dogs aren't proggramed to do everything we want, and if we aren't communicating it to them in such a way that they never get it, then it's not their fault, and there's no reason to shock some sense into them.

Some dogs just can't be off leash. And even with a shock collar, if you forget it, or it stops working, or malfunctions, and he doesn't have a recall, then your in a tight spot.

Because that's the downfall of electronic devices, they don't always work.

And it doesn't make sense to make a dog that won't come back, shock him into coming back.

I don't see why someone would treat a dog any different then they would treat a child. I'm not anthropomorphizing, I'm saying, if a child were to wander off in situations, then you wouldn't put them in situations that would make them wander, some parents even keep their kids on leashes, they wouldn't shock them, and in all reality, that could be considered abuse, yet shocking a dog is all fine and dandy, it's just a dog, yeah it hurts, but it will make things better in the long run.

Your still inflicting pain, plain and simple. You can't sugar coat it.

I am not sugar coating it, I know if I do shock Kobe I will be inflicting pain on him. Why else would a e-collar work? It has to be an aversive to work.

I realize you are not trying to anthromorphize, but let me try and show your analogy in a different light. The child will grow up and earn it's freedom eventually regardless of your actions, for better or worse. Your dog never will.

Your child will have the freedom to interact and explore with it's world, to make decisions for itself that may hurt or help them. Your dog never will.

Every dog is different, even then. Priscilla probably would not find a difference. The world, as she knows it, exists in me. She lives for me, breathes for me, and loves only me. Putting her on a leash for the rest of her life likely won't make her as much as blink, as long as I was the one on the other end of the leash. I don't find this a very desirable trait, but that's who she is.

Kobe lives to run. He's a nomadic dog and a complete free spirit. Stealing that from him is akin to putting Priscilla in a place I am not. I try to remedy this best as I can by providing him trips to the dog park, and I run 8 miles every day. Soon, though, he will no longer have the dog park and he will no longer have his off leash time in the backyard because I'm moving to a place that offers neither.

I wish no harm on him, and I certainly don't want to shock sense into him. I do not wish to punish him, but if it is to offer him the most important thing to him, I have difficulty denying that to him.

I believe that anyone who would know Kobe, would know that this time is unbelievably important to him. Take a look at the pictures of him running free in this thread:

http://www.dogforums.com/8-dog-pictu...excellent.html (Kobe and Pris's Excellent Adventure (24 images))

And tell me that you believe he would be willing to give that up. Maybe you do, but right now I don't think he would be. I believe if he could know what was at stake, he would fight for that freedom.

[Pepper]

Is this for a quick fix because your going to be moving?

Or have you just exhausted every method?

And in the situation the e-collar somehow doesn't work with Kobe, what happens then?
Keep upping the level of shocking until your at the most extreme?

Or try a different method?

At least you have a reason to use an e-collar, ironically a logical reason, I just don't think I could give over the fact of hey, you didn't come back, ZAP, there now come back or you get zapped.

Maybe it works differently.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Pepper

Is this for a quick fix because your going to be moving?

Or have you just exhausted every method?

And in the situation the e-collar somehow doesn't work with Kobe, what happens then?
Keep upping the level of shocking until your at the most extreme?

Or try a different method?

At least you have a reason to use an e-collar, ironically a logical reason, I just don't think I could give over the fact of hey, you didn't come back, ZAP, there now come back or you get zapped.

Maybe it works differently.

Every method is exhausted. My moving presented the dilemma. I'm not trying to fix it quick before I move. Kobe's recall has not improved much in a long while, and I still cannot trust him. All the situations it would be needed are high distraction stuff.

The reason it's not a dilemma is because, even though I've worked on his recall a long time, I've never needed to keep him off leash in a unfenced area. I have a dog park near me, and a 26 acre oceanside dog park a 25 minute drive away. I have a backyard he can be free in. I had all these alternatives, so I never needed the e-collar. I was more than happy to take him to all these places, and go on my off leash walks with Priscilla. It gave him a lot of freedom away from me.

But now all those options are gone, so now I'm left in an either or situation. The fact you see him, a Husky/Malamute mix no less, off leash should attest to how much work I've done with him. This is a dog that ran 14 miles away from me 6 months ago. So yes, my work, I believe, should be clearly evident.

If the e-collar does not work with him, then there's nothing I can do and he will be on leash forever. I'm willing to accept that readily. Kobe is the one who would lose from this, not me.

Believe me, I am still having a hard time with the idea of hurting him. I still, even now, don't know if I'm doing the right thing. I will feel miserable every time I hurt him. Ideally, the e-collar doesn't work as such that you have them screaming in pain. If they yelp when you shock them, it's WAY too high.

The way you calibrate a e-collar is that you start at the lowest, and increase it slowly. The dog is in front of you, relaxed. You increase it until you see a visual sign they feel it. This can be something like blinking, licking a lip, yawning, a faint twitch, and so on. Then you set it one step back before they showed a sign of discomfort.

If I had to zap him to the point he yelps, then that would be the end of that. No more e-collar.

[Pepper]

I would be comfortable using the vibrate setting with a dog

I guess whatever works, works, as long as its used properly, but for good reason.

Not, my dog is mean, my dog doesnt want to listen, etc..

I think maybe this would be the one situation It would be...decent.

But in all reality, I could never do it, I just couldn't, it would make me feel low, and wrong. Because people always have to win and get the things we want, and a lot of times, we will do whatever it takes to reach that level, even if it is painful to reach the destination.

I've tried to train a Husky/GSD/Chow/Wolf up here before to have a solid recall, and a lot of times, they just don't get it, and you do want to see them stretch their legs and run for as long as they want too, so I understand what your going through.

It never really worked, I didn't want to use an E-collar so I simply would just snap on some roller blades and put the husky into a pulling harness and just say, Go.

In the winter, I had him pull me on a sled with a pulling harness.

It was just as much fun for both of us.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by Pepper

I would be comfortable using the vibrate setting with a dog

I guess whatever works, works, as long as its used properly, but for good reason.

Not, my dog is mean, my dog doesnt want to listen, etc..

I think maybe this would be the one situation It would be...decent.

But in all reality, I could never do it, I just couldn't, it would make me feel low, and wrong. Because people always have to be in charge, we always have to win and get the things we want, and a lot of times, we will do whatever it takes to reach that level.

I've tried to train a Husky/GSD/Chow/Wolf up here before, and a lot of times, they just don't get it, and you do want to see them stretch their legs and run for as long as they want too, so I understand what your going through.

It never really worked, I didn't want to use an E-collar so I simple would just snap on some roller blades and put the husky into a pulling harness and just say, Go.

In the winter, I had him pull me on a sled with a pulling harness.

It was just as much fun for both of us.

I honestly don't care if Kobe listens to me or not. I don't want to teach him a recall to teach him who's boss, or because I want to be in control. I want him to have a recall for his own safety, so he doesn't get hurt. If being ignored harmed my ego, I would not have Huskies. When Kobe ignores my request that he sit at home, I am amused. When he sneaks some cat food, I laugh and kick myself for it. Neither instance hurts him, in fact, both are rewarding to him. To control that, to me, would be to strip him of his freedom as well.

And to strip him of that would be to strip him of who he is. So no, I don't want to control him. I want to grant him an opportunity, and I want him to be safe in doing so. I'm not going to recall him just because, I'm going to recall him when safety requires it.

Yes, Kobe loves our runs and our pulling. I have no disagreement with you there. It would be fine for me to do that for the rest of his life. When I adopted him and Ollie, I was prepared to do that.

This is just one of the many things I can do, that's all. I just believe in what I think he wants. I also believe he has faith in me that I would do what's right by him. He would never know that he had the option of freedom because that's not how dogs think, and I do realize that as well. But I have difficulty denying that just on the basis he would not know.

As you say, it is hard. For all I know, the first time I use it will be my last. Maybe I can't do it. I have no idea what's going to happen, but until then, I feel I should try.

[TooneyDogs]

Originally Posted by RBark

I'll have to ask you then, if you had a dog that you could never reliably trust off leash, and this is the only way you could give it freedom during hikes, trips, and so on. Would it still be so wrong?

I really feel for you....I do. I got into formal obedience competitive work over a decade ago after losing a dog on the street. That dog had 'perfect' stays...or so I thought. Every day for 5 years he held his sit stays in the driveway while I got the mail or the paper. Then one day I turned around in time to see him hit. So, I turned to the pro's for rock solid, unbreakable stays and totally reliable off leash work.
Now, I know the answer (for me)....I'll never have my dog off leash if there's any chance of harm because there really isn't a foolproof way to do that even with all the training in the world. Knowing that, it just doesn't make any sense (for me pesonally) to use pain in part of my training.

[RBark]

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

I really feel for you....I do. I got into formal obedience competitive work over a decade ago after losing a dog on the street. That dog had 'perfect' stays...or so I thought. Every day for 5 years he held his sit stays in the driveway while I got the mail or the paper. Then one day I turned around in time to see him hit. So, I turned to the pro's for rock solid, unbreakable stays and totally reliable off leash work.
Now, I know the answer (for me)....I'll never have my dog off leash if there's any chance of harm because there really isn't a foolproof way to do that even with all the training in the world. Knowing that, it just doesn't make any sense (for me pesonally) to use pain in part of my training.

Believe me, I hear you loud and clear. I am still debating this with myself. You may well be right, right now I do not know what's right. I hope I don't have to endure what you did. And I feel for you.

I will probably come upon my own conclusion as to what I believe is ultimately right. I, too, believe there's no place for pain in my training. Doing pain for competitive obedience, for sits, stays, and all that? Sounds silly to me. Those are all supposed to be fun, not painful. I believe that, and would never use a ecollar for that. I've taught Priscilla and Kobe 100% positive reinforcement to this day. So the idea of using a e-collar for most training does not sit well with me.

But recall? Recall can be the difference between life and death, as I'm sure you are well aware. So I haven't decided what is right, and that's why I am going over this to such an extent. I wish to hear what others believe, because I don't know what I believe yet.

[wvasko]

RBark
I think the e-collar use if you are worried about dog yelping might not be the way to go for you. I would not have a problem as it does not bother me as when looking at the big picture of my dog 14 miles away. Tooney is correct with the 100 levels of pain basically that's what it is, I have said this before in almost 50 yrs of dog work (and I've had a collar most of those years) I have used in on possibly 10 dogs and then only one problem per dog(never used collar to fix 2 problems on one dog)Remember the original Tri-Tronics had only 1 setting, you could call it the fry-em setting. I never used an e-collar for mickey mouse stuff as that work could be done by hand. It was used on outlaw types of dogs. I have no moral/humane etc problem at all for use with an outlaw type dog. I do have a much more humane Tri Tronics now and the only use it gets is every 6 weeks or so I recharge it. This reply is not meant to be pro or con collar it's just facts.

[Marsh Muppet]

Originally Posted by Pepper

If I had a dog that was not reliable, than I would keep them on a leash for how ever many years it took to get them reliable, if they never became reliable then, well, that stinks.

And you see that as kindness?