[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by DGG

I know my dogs enjoy my company, if they didn't they wouldn't follow me from room to room, ask for cuddles, or bring me their toys.

Enjoying your company is different than assuming a dog is motivated to behave because you’re his human. If your dog follows you because he’s associated you with attention, cuddles, and play, is the dog motivated by something in you, or the opportunities you provide for attention, cuddles, and play? I assure you that if you didn’t provide these opportunities you might be saying your dog is not motivated by you. You might even say your dog hates you.
I’m not suggesting you devalue your relationship in any way with your dog, but understand that what you’ve just stated is that your dog is motivated by x, y, z, and none of them are characteristics of you. The fact that you acknowledge these things are reinforcers, is good. However, attention, cuddles, and play do not neatly fall under what we know really motivates behavior, the 4 F’s - Fighting, Fleeing, Feeding, and Reproduction. Food does.

These things are rewards I can dish out at ANY time no matter where I am, unlike food.

Why unlike food? Those that use food as reinforcers use them no differently than you do your reinforcers. As I stated previously, I don’t find 3 pieces of kibble in my pocket intrusive on what I do in training. Oh, I get it…I’ve left home without pants…silly me. I’m still waiting for that day when streaking with my dog is the norm. However, I’ve taught dogs preferable behaviors by allowing them to lick the salt off my hand as a reinforcer. Oh dear, probably not a good idea to promote dog-human cannibalism. Forget I said all that. But… If the dog knows the behavior, is food needed? Are any reinforcers needed? IME, no. I’ll explain in the next statement.

It wasn't until I started trying to phase out treats with Coal that he suddenly started ignoring me because he learned this reward was no longer always there so really, what's in it for him?

This is not an example of food being less preferential. In fact, it’s probably more of an example of food getting what we ultimately want in training. You found the Holy Grail of behavior, the mere act of doing the behavior is self reinforcing. I would contend that you’ll get to this point quicker using food, from the onset, than without. A clicker trainer only uses food to teach a behavior initially, they’ll then exchange the reinforcer for the same life rewards you use. However, the acquisition of the cue is much faster using food (a four F motivator)…I don’t know that this can be debated. Proof in point – the dog who responds to a cues at home (where food is plentiful), but not outside the home where food is scarce (or running up a tree). Still more…

This is exactly my point though; other things can be used as reinforcers so why not just use them from the start?

Because dog owners and trainers want behaviors NOW. Feeding is a primary motivation for dogs, and food allows us to tap into this motivation to get behavior NOW.

Why spend more time phasing out a previous reward that was actually more rewarding to the dog in the first place than your new reward.

Because the dog doesn’t speak our language, and some even find physical contact or verbal praise threatening. If you’ve met a dog who was not motivated by food…he likely doesn’t have a blood pulse.

If I were trained this way I'd be holding out for the good stuff once it was taken away...

Do you work for a paycheck? Do you only go to work on payday? If not, why? Before you answer think also of how your work behavior would change if you never received a paycheck.

However if my reward that I always knew I enjoyed was never taken away, I wouldn't have a problem.

Back to our inside dog (brilliant)-outside dog (stubborn) problem. If the human is always available, even outside, why then does this problem exist? You can’t conclude an answer without ending at a four-F motivation reinforcing the behavior.

How do you know if I inadvertently reinforced the dancing behavior? Were you watching me train my dog?

Yes. I was watching you. I’ll answer this question two ways. One very obvious way, and one even more obvious way for you to dwell on. You, as your dog’s owner, are responsible for your dog’s behavior. Do you disagree? If not, you are responsible for your dog’s dancing behavior. A simple deduction. Now an even more obvious one and I’ll use the definition of reinforcement to get there.

Reinforcement: Reinforcement is defined as a consequence that follows an operant response that increase (or attempts to increase) the likelihood of that response occurring in the future.

If you at any time fed or praised your dog for a sit that included dancing, you increase the likelihood of that response occurring in the future.
Now I gave you the benefit of the doubt by calling it inadvertent, since I trust you wanted a sit that did not include dancing.

So yeah, I expect my dogs to be reliable, and so why shouldn't they expect me to be reliable in the praise I give them?

Then why are you thinking of using a shock collar?

[Elana55]

I love CP's answers as I walwyas learn something. I am glad Elsa is such a good professor! :P

The one thing that stands out to me in all of this discussion is that somewhere along the way the dog has learned two things. The first thing he learned is how SELF REWARDING (and therefore self reinforcing) running off is. The second thing he learned is that when the leash is unsnapped, he can run off, which further reinforces the running off which he finds self rewarding in the first place.

I have found it VERY difficult, even using corrections, to EXTINGUISH a heavily reinforced behavior, especially one that was heavily intermittently self rewarded and self reinforced!

This dog learned to run off at some point and in doing so he was heavily rewarded. Maybe it was food he found, or chasing food, or scenting and chasing food, or even found a female in heat or even got into a dog scuffle and won and found that just the most fun on earth.

I have talked to people who have had dogs do this who have resorted to E collars with very little positive results. Now, I will qualify that statement by also stating that I have NO IDEA the level of skill these people have had with training dogs with e collars or any other method.

I think that an e collar is often (not always) a last resort born of frustration and it must be highly frustrating (probably as much quantity of frustratin as the dog has quantity of pleasure) to have a dog decide to disobey the come here command when off leash.

I think also, that regardless of the method used, the essential element in training this dog that is missing is an enclosed area out side.

DGG, I must ask if there is a horse arena, a gym, anyplace with a good fence, where you can go to train.. even if you have to pay some $$? If you can find a place I would suggest, at the risk of being derided, that you consider the Control Unleashed protocol introduced by Leslie McDevitt.

If you cannot get to such an enclosed place, maybe get her book and give her protocal a try.. and if you can get to one of the week long control unleashed seminars, try it with this dog.

Just some thoughts and ideas which you may or may not investigate at your discretion.

[DogGoneGood]

Oh gosh CP, I love that I always find your posts both rewarding and mentally exhausting

I get what you're saying about Coal's dancing. You are probably right.
Okay, so scenario time (because I love them so much!):

I'm training Coal via treats and no clicker (as I didn't start the clicker training until AFTER the dancing started). Coal starts guessing a down, a wave, back up, roll over etc. when what I asked for is a Sit.

Previously he's never done this before. Why is it then, all of a sudden he's done it?

Let's just say once he's offered one or more other commands before getting the sit right I praise for the sit and give him his food reward. Thus he's learned if I dance around and preform all these things then I'll get the treat, and therefore I've accidently taught him to do it.

Again I ask; why did he do it in the first place, before the reward was given after such a behavior was displayed?


Could it possibly be because he wasn't focusing on the command given but rather guessing because he was too focused on the food? Wouldn't this then be a dog who's too motviated by food?


No, I don't typically leave house without my pants, but you have to keep in mind that I am not a man Occasionally I wear things called skirts or MAYBE even a dress that don't have pockets. This is pretty rare, but there's other things I wear that don't actually have pockets (and yes, pants ARE on that list!). So no, it's isn't as convienent as you make it out to be. Not to mention I just find it really gross to have food in my pocket. I hate putting my hand in my pocket to get crumbs under my nails. I hate the fact I always smell like dog food when there's kibble or treats in my pocket. I hate the fact that I have to remember to actually put those treats in my pocket before heading out, as I have a really horrible memory.

As I said in the other treat related thread - I don't NEVER use treats. They're just not what I choose to use as a main reward. I don't think it's a big deal.

If I meet a dog who absolutly won't work for praise, I'll use treats. Does that satisfy you?

Oh, and stop watching me! I only have room for one stalker right now!

Elana55 - The closest enclosure is the fenced in basketball (tenis? Both?) court at Sowchea School which is ah uhhh... about 15-20 minute walk away I'd say. It's winter and we have nearly 5 feet of snow. That enclosure is completely snowed in. I do use it in the summer time for training though. Regardless, I'd like my dog to learn to be able to play and stick around at HOME, hense why I'd rather train at home... even though I don't have a fence... which sucks a lot. Other than that fenced in spot at the school, I honestly can't think of anywhere else that's enclosed that I could train at.

I'll look into the Control Unleashed thing you metioned, though right now have no idea what it is.


How about I meet everyone halfway and try a combination of sporadic treating (as I just can't bring myself to use it as a main reward source) and the e-collar? Would that be satisfactory?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by DogGoneGood

Oh gosh CP, I love that I always find your posts both rewarding and mentally exhausting

I don't think I would have as many posts as I do if I didn't find this place rewarding.

I'm training Coal via treats and no clicker (as I didn't start the clicker training until AFTER the dancing started). Coal starts guessing a down, a wave, back up, roll over etc. when what I asked for is a Sit.

Previously he's never done this before. Why is it then, all of a sudden he's done it?

Silly trainers...always wanting to know why. I can guess with the best of them, but let me ask you a question in return...would in knowing change your approach any differently?

Let's just say once he's offered one or more other commands before getting the sit right I praise for the sit and give him his food reward. Thus he's learned if I dance around and preform all these things then I'll get the treat, and therefore I've accidently taught him to do it.

Again I ask; why did he do it in the first place, before the reward was given after such a behavior was displayed?

How about I answer this with a game: http://nobelprize.org/educational_ga...ov/pavlov.html

Could it possibly be because he wasn't focusing on the command given but rather guessing because he was too focused on the food? Wouldn't this then be a dog who's too motviated by food?

What I know of dogs is that they eat with their teeth. If he was too focused on the food he'd eat it right out of your hand.

He's guessing known behaviors because he knows the pattern, he knows they eventually lead him to food. When mom promises food, I get food by doing x, y, and z. This is classical conditioning at work, otherwise known as Pavlovian conditioning. A good trainer does not promise food. A good trainer will eventually generalize the behavior when food is not obviously available.

Another example of classical condition you might experience. You do not announce you're going for a walk, but you pull out your dog's e-collar. If your dog has associated the collar with walks, he may act excitedly when you show him the collar. The ABC's...e-collar > excitable behavior > walks outside. Don't confuse this with your dog preferring the aversion of an e-collar, and justifying it's use because of your dog's excitable behavior. Your dog is simply conditioned to what the collar (Pavlov's bell) represents (walking outside).

No, I don't typically leave house without my pants, but you have to keep in mind that I am not a man Occasionally I wear things called skirts or MAYBE even a dress that don't have pockets.

I've found my man-purse to be more cumbersome to carry than treats.

If I meet a dog who absolutly won't work for praise, I'll use treats. Does that satisfy you?

Did the dog end up being well mannered? If not, no, I am not satisfied.

[DogGoneGood]

Oh gosh, if I carried treats in my purse it would take me an hour to dig them out! My purse is big enough to hold my sketch book it, along with that is almost my entire house in it!


The link you sent won't work my internet sucks these days... but I'm assuming it has to do with pavlov's dog, and I've heard that story

Yes, I do always want to know the why's. Not just for training, but everything in life. I was one of those kids who always asked a question and then after recieving the answer asked "but why?" until my parents exclaimed "BECAUSE I SAID SO!"

I'm also curious, not just for my own sake, but others who may be new to training and are attempting to train their dog via treats and getting the same dancing result. For the sake of correcting the training and thus correcting the behavior

So if I were to train Coal with treats, and he JUST started offering behaviors, would this mean I should stop training for a couple of minutes and then try again? Only rewarding when he gives the desired behavior the first time? I'm assuming your logic is also to reward treats sporadically rather than consistantly, right?

It IS possible for Coal to be focused on the treat, without eating it out of my hand. He's been taught (through corrections) not to jump up and steal food out of my hands. So I would assume it's possible for him to be so fixated on the treat that he's not fully paying attention, but not jump up and take it because in the past he's been corrected for doing so.

I'll let you know if the dog I encounter who is only food motivated, in the end, is a well mannered dog

[lizalots]

Wow, this thread has been mentally exhausting!! Whew!

I am having the same problem with my pooches. While Sierra has a wonderful off leash recall, Spike has been somewhat of a challenge. He has beautiful leash manners - almost too perfect to be the same dog! His previous owner must have worked long and hard on this. I've also introduced hand commands while on leash - I used them for Sierra as well as verbal. Again, he has picked it up so well.

When off leash, his recall is probably about 50%. He knows that 'here' means come back. He knows that there is a good reward for it as well. My problem comes when there are other distractions for him. He would much rather chase and play with another dog than listen to me. I've been working, working, working on this, but it isn't getting much better.

While I've been considering using the e-collar, I've been very interested on how to correctly train a dog with one.

I've considered going into basic obedience, but the problem is that he already knows the basic commands. I mean, beautiful leash work. He outshines Sierra, and I've worked so much with her that I can predict her every body movement. It's just that damned recall. I've been keeping my eyes open for a good secondary obedience class.

Oh my, my... dogs. Silly dogs.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by DogGoneGood

The link you sent won't work my internet sucks these days... but I'm assuming it has to do with pavlov's dog, and I've heard that story

Bummer. Maybe this link will work for you: http://nobelprize.org/educational_ga...dicine/pavlov/

So if I were to train Coal with treats, and he JUST started offering behaviors, would this mean I should stop training for a couple of minutes and then try again? Only rewarding when he gives the desired behavior the first time? I'm assuming your logic is also to reward treats sporadically rather than consistantly, right?

When it comes to intervals of reinforcement and training new behaviors, I don't concern myself with intervals. We humans as imperfect as we are, are already variable reinforcement vending machines. I concern myself with my criteria. If I've exceeded that criteria and the dog does fail to complete my criteria, no, I do not waste precious training time by postponing training. Nor do I want the dog to dwell on why. I would rather start over again with a lower criteria.

It IS possible for Coal to be focused on the treat, without eating it out of my hand. He's been taught (through corrections) not to jump up and steal food out of my hands. So I would assume it's possible for him to be so fixated on the treat that he's not fully paying attention, but not jump up and take it because in the past he's been corrected for doing so.

I'll assume you don't want the dog to focus on the treat but on you. Take a treat and hold it out to your side. What does your dog do? If he fixates on the treat keep holding it out until he glances at your eyes. Mark the glance with "yes", and feed him a treat you're holding in your other hand. Keep doing this over and over, incrementally waiting for longer and longer eye contact, and tell us your results. What is Coal fixated on now?

[DogGoneGood]

lizalots - I would suggest looking for a trainer who also offers one on one training rather than group obedience. You may have to ask, as not all trainers advertise their one on one option as much as the group training That might solve your delima of the classes offering more of the stuff he already has, and the trainer can tailor the schedual based on what you want from your dog.

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I'll assume you don't want the dog to focus on the treat but on you. Take a treat and hold it out to your side. What does your dog do? If he fixates on the treat keep holding it out until he glances at your eyes. Mark the glance with "yes", and feed him a treat you're holding in your other hand. Keep doing this over and over, incrementally waiting for longer and longer eye contact, and tell us your results. What is Coal fixated on now?

That's the "watch me". I taught him that when I was teaching him better control on the agility course. I don't know if that proves anything though... he's really only focusing on me because he's learned he gets his food reward if he does. It doesn't exactly mean he loves treats any less... Although I guess it does prove he's capable of focusing on me rather than soley on the treat. If that's the point you meant; well then I just have one thing left to say to you my good sir...

Touché.

P.S.
I got the game working now! It's cute... I feel like I've seen it before too.

[lizalots]

Talking about recall..

So say, your dog is recalling excellent for his reward. And then one time he stops about 20 feet in front of you and won't move another inch towards you. What is the proper way to handle that? Walking to get him seems like it defeats the purpose. Calling him to you with is not working.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by lizalots

So say, your dog is recalling excellent for his reward. And then one time he stops about 20 feet in front of you and won't move another inch towards you. What is the proper way to handle that? Walking to get him seems like it defeats the purpose. Calling him to you with is not working.

Assuming the dog and I are in a safe enclosure, and he's not threatened in any way from ceasing his recall, I'm running like a clown in the opposite direction from him.

[GreatDaneMom]

to clear up some things, the dog was taught how to sit before, but instead of continuing with treats, they turned to the e-collar... doG only knows why! and they dont have a trainer, they are the trainer....ugh.... but we keep trying to push our classes on such on hem so maybe they will actually do it. maybe i can give them a free doggie bootcamp so i can work with her to perfect her and they can stop using the e-collar.

[katthevamp]

As for the recall questions, wouldn't teaching the dog that if you come back to me, you can do these things after help? That way, the dog realized comeing back to you doesn't mean play-time is over? Of course, you can't always let them do what they want.

[rosemaryninja]

Yes, recall can be rewarded with a release to let the dog go back and play. It can be risky if you're only just proofing the behaviour, but when it works it pays off well.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by katthevamp

As for the recall questions, wouldn't teaching the dog that if you come back to me, you can do these things after help? That way, the dog realized comeing back to you doesn't mean play-time is over?

http://life.familyeducation.com/dogs...ing/47296.html

[Elana55]

I have been thinking about his thread and the bottom line is that DGG has a dog that is leash wise and finds running off and not coming when called more rewarding than coming. To that end, DGG is proposing to use and E Collar and is questioning its use to shape behavior.

Regardless, I think this recall problem can be solved w/o an e collar. It may need to wait until spring to get completely sorted out (I hate winter.. LOL).

IF DGG would be willing to work some with treats and food, that would help. Don't want crumbled bits of Dog treats of hotdog or cooked chicken in your purse or pockets? OK. Go to the hardware store and get a nail pouch. Wear that over whatever outfit and put the treats in that UNTILL YOU GET THIS BEHAVIOR TRAINED. After you have the dog reliable, occaisionally reinforce with treats to keep him sharp.

I would first change everything you do. Start in the house. Train the recall completely from scratch and use a NEW WORD. Totally abandon the word he doesn't respond to off leash. Start over. Do not use a leash or this word with the leash on the dog EVER. Try a clicker or use the word YES! spoken enthusiatically to mark behavior. PRIME THE DOG. Say YES 10 times and immediately give the dog a treat. I would ONLY work on recall. ONLY.

Let the dog wander around the room you are in. When the dog looks at you, say, YES and offer a treat. He has to come to you to collect his treat (that is what you want anyway). Send the dog away and the minute he looks at you say, YES and treat. Never say YES and NOT treat. Work in 5 minute increments.. intersperse the work with 5 minutes of play.. like tug or something else the dog likes.

Work for no more than 30 minutes total.

When the dog starts looking at you and coming to you reliably, add your NEW recall cue. When the dog starts to respond to this cue, spend no less than 30 seconds praising the dog, and feeding him several small treats EVERY time he responds to the recall word.

I would do this EVERY day indoors until the weather breaks. Take him out for walks on his leash and NEVER use your "new" recall word with him outside on the leash. Just over train the devil out of this new recall word. ALWAYS give him 30 seconds of praise when he responds to the word. Eventually give him treats less frequently.. not EVERY time he comes.. start doing it every other time.. then do it every third time.. every 4th time.. two together.. every fifth time etc. Break up the pattern. He never knows if he will get treats or just praise but when you do give treats make them good and give him several.. not all at once.. I give about 5 treats over the 30 seconds to a minute during the praise phase. Do not phase the treats out completely thru the winter. Keep up this imtermittent schedule.

It is VERY important to never have a leash on when you do this work. NEVER.

When the weather breaks, go to the tennis court (a 20 minute walk is not so bad) and repeat the training and start by using treats every time with him off leash in the tennis court. Again, NO LEASH. Over train to the point where no matter what is going on outside the tennis court, the dog comes to you. Over train. Over train. Over train. Go to intermittent rewards. Use different treats (variety is the spice of life). Use good stuff. Steak, chicken, cut up hot dogs and your nail pouch. When you get to intermittent rewards at the tennise court, sometimes have the nail pouch off and no treats. Other times have it off and have treats in your hand. You don't want him to always associate the nail pouch with the recall cue.

When you have over trained in the tennis court, it is time to go back to your back yard and give it a try. Have the best treats you can have. Do not have him on a leash. Give your recall cue and see what happens. Stay calm, do not change the tone, pitchor inflection of your voice and act like you absolutely EXPECT him to respond to the recall cue.

That is what I would try before resorting to an e collar. Yes, it is a lot of work but ultimately I believe that work will pay off with a dog that will come to you when he is called and come thru a wall of fire. I bet you will learn a lot (which is interesting and will answer many of your why questions). If it does not work, e collars aren't going anywhere.

Just My Idea.

And check out Control Unleashed as I suggested. More answers to your "why" questions.

[DogGoneGood]

Elana55 - I really appreciate you taking the time to write that all up, you're obviously a caring person. I've tried pretty much what you've explained, except for less treats (just the ocasional "bonus" treats). Linkin listens great in the house and on the leash. He does everything I ask of him with great enthusiasm. It's just the moment that leash is off.

I will admit, working him off leash in a large enclosure would help a lot, as he's about 50% reliable there (like at the fenced in place at Sowchea).

I've been working on his recall for a year now (actually, over a year now...). In the house, on the long line, with a tab, with treats, without treats, with toys, without toys.

He will work with the same enthusiasm for any reward (treats, toys, praise etc.). The only thing I've found that tends to hinder him a bit is the toys. It has to be a short, quiet game of tug etc. or else he gets SO wound up he starts doing "zoomies" and then it's hard to get him back in a training frame of mind.

I was taught at school to keep my praise short and simple with him because he's so easy to get too excited, but have learned over the year I can get more excited than what my teachers taught me, but knowing how far is too far.

I would like to gradually build it up so no matter how excited he is he'll still listen, and we're slowly working on that for all of his commands (I've been teaching him "settle" which is his command to settle down, and he's doing pretty good with it).

I've been thinking, and my sister has a back yard that gets used quite a bit (they have a dog, actually he's in my siggy), so it's not as snowed in as the fenced area at Sowchea. So I'm thinking of asking her to let me train there, it's just not quite as convenient because it means getting someone to drive us there on a daily basis (I only have my learners... that's another long story).

I haven't looked into the Control Unleashed, but I promise I will.

While I'm still pretty set on using the e-collar, I am willing to try anything so I am considering other routes (no matter how much I think it won't work ). I hate bringing Coal outside and playing with him while Linkin sits in the house and cries, missing out on all the fun. It breaks my heart but the only way he can come out and play too is if he's on the long line, and it's just not the same. I do bring him out a lot on it, but it would be so much better if he could just enjoy the freedom in the yard, as we have five acres and he's never even seen it all!

[spotted nikes]

I had a dog that would bark nonstop at any person coming in the house, when the person moves, any time they spoke, etc. I tried everything to stop it. I finally bought a "spray" collar with remote. There is a "good" tone to do when they are being good/stopping barking/get treat, and a bad tone that preceedes the spray button being pushed. The spray smells like Lemon Pledge. I only had to spray twice, and now the tone by itself stops him immediately. He'll also quit whatever he is doing and come to me if he hears the "bad" tone.

I couldn't be happier with it.

[Elana55]

If your dog is only responding 50% of the time in an enclosed area, he needs more training until he is 100%.

Try changing the cue and never using a leash EVER with that cue.

Not having an enclosed area to work is really holding you back on this particular dog.

I like a whistle as a cue, tho my dog responds to several recalls. She has a special word for a really reliable recall, a word for every day recall, a word for 'you need to get your nose out of that anc catch up with me' a couple of hand signals and a whistle. The RRR word she would literally go thru fire to get to me.

A dog can get to the point where he associates a behavior he finds desirable (self rewarding) with a cue that he has learned to ignore. This is why for changing the cue.

You truly do need to work on focus.. there is another source which might help you a lot.. Brenda Aloff "Get Connected with Your Dog" that is very good. Leslie McDevitt has a "Look at THAT" procedure that would probably really help with this dog. There is also a rev up and cool down stickie here on the forum that might be of benefit. More is happening here I think than a leash wise dog..

Meanwhile, if you are set on using the collar, what is holding you back? If it doesn't work, you can stop using it, right?

[DogGoneGood]

Well, I ordered that Control Unleashed today, but it won't be until Monday that I can send out a money order and then a while after that before it gets here. The shipping is almost twice as much as the thing itself

I just like to check out all my options, and plus wanted to fully understand the e-collars abilities. I have tried it on Linkin the past couple days and have seen some improvement, although I've got him on a long line as well, and like you said, it probably would be best to do this training completely without the leash. So I really don't know if it's going to make a huge difference once the leash is off or not, but so far he's responding very well (better than he usually does even with the just the long leash and no e-collar).

No matter what method I choose and what works for Linkin, any additional information is always great. It's why I've ordered Control Unleashed; even if it's not the solution for Linkin, it doesn't hurt me to be armed with another choice in case I come across a dog that it will work for.

[wvasko]

DGG

Meanwhile, if you are set on using the collar, what is holding you back? If it doesn't work, you can stop using it, right?

I have got to agree with elana on this one and I make it a point not to give advice on use of an aversive. You are a dog trainer. PM me if you need anything.