[Babs89]

I have begun walking a German Shepherd that is owned by a neighbor who can't do it often enough. The dog is 4 months old and I'm trying to teach it to walk with a leash. Very hard going! He pulls constantly and I am forever saying heel. The owner does nothing with the dog unfortunately. I am trying to help with his exercise so that I have a walking companion and he can get some training. I need a few more tips. Since I am only with him maybe 3-5 hrs. per week it's not very fruitful so far. He's getting so strong that if I can't manage to get this under control he may be too much for me in a few months, i.e. he's very strong! Some suggestions?

[iwantmypup]

Hmmm ... I have o clue but I would like to say that you are doing a good thing trying to help and all...thank you!

[Curbside Prophet]

You're neighbor is very lucky to have you. There's a few things I would try. A gentle leader harness is one. Another would be to stop and change directions any time he pulls...if he's a follower, he'll change directions too. You may not go very far at first, but overtime it does help. You also need to pay attention to when you are asking for "heel". If the dog is already pulling, it's too late..."heel" means nothing to him, but "pull". You need to associate the command with what you want and reward accordingly. So when he's at your side walking like a gentlemen, say "heel", and when he looks at you (optional), say "yes" and quickly give him a piece of kibble. Encourage the walk behind by giving him the kibble behind your back, especially if he likes to pull for the kibble...hopefully he's been taught some bite inhibition, otherwise you may need to use another approach. You may need to constantly command-mark-praise at first, but again over time it should get better. It's certainly much more challenging to teach a pup to walk at heel outside of a training class (where you can be shown what to do), but it can be done. This is just one idea, I'm sure other good ones will follow. Good luck!

[Babs89]

Thank you for the tips. I'll try them ASAP. Another question in the meantime. Is jerking his head with the leash doing him any good? Or reinforcing his pulling? Thx!

[Curbside Prophet]

I have to assume that a jerk is a negative response to pulling, so no it wouldn't reinforce pulling. However, jerking can destroy trust and confidence in the dog, and confuse him. Therefore, I wouldn't gamble with it and avoid it if you can.

[Babs89]

Thanks for the heads up on that.

[FranMan]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

You're neighbor is very lucky to have you. There's a few things I would try. A gentle leader harness is one. Another would be to stop and change directions any time he pulls...if he's a follower, he'll change directions too. You may not go very far at first, but overtime it does help. You also need to pay attention to when you are asking for "heel". If the dog is already pulling, it's too late..."heel" means nothing to him, but "pull". You need to associate the command with what you want and reward accordingly. So when he's at your side walking like a gentlemen, say "heel", and when he looks at you (optional), say "yes" and quickly give him a piece of kibble. Encourage the walk behind by giving him the kibble behind your back, especially if he likes to pull for the kibble...hopefully he's been taught some bite inhibition, otherwise you may need to use another approach. You may need to constantly command-mark-praise at first, but again over time it should get better. It's certainly much more challenging to teach a pup to walk at heel outside of a training class (where you can be shown what to do), but it can be done. This is just one idea, I'm sure other good ones will follow. Good luck!

A harness isn't going to help you control a dog. You need a pinch collar. Quick pops on the leash let the dog know he is in the wrong. He'll learn quick.

Another thing is feed the dog treats as you walk. As the dog walks beside you give him a piece of food. Make sure you say good heal, good boy , good whatever the name. good heal. feed a piece of food. You can use the cheap dog food. give one piece every couple of steps.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by FranMan

A harness isn't going to help you control a dog. You need a pinch collar. Quick pops on the leash let the dog know he is in the wrong. He'll learn quick.

I recommended a gentle leader, not an on-top clip harness. Harnesses that do clip on the top won't help pulling. A gentle leader however, the kind that clips on the front of the chest (easy walk) use an opposite reflex to discourage pulling. What you're describing is negative reinforcement, and that's never my first option when alternate methods have proven to be useful to me.

[FranMan]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I recommended a gentle leader, not an on-top clip harness. Harnesses that do clip on the top won't help pulling. A gentle leader however, the kind that clips on the front of the chest (easy walk) use an opposite reflex to discourage pulling. What you're describing is negative reinforcement, and that's never my first option when alternate methods have proven to be useful to me.

Are you talking about a halter?

"negative reinforcement" being bad is an opinion and isn't bad in my eyes. It does the same thing a mom dog does the pups. It can be used and should be used without hurting the dog. If you jerk it as hard as you can of course you can hurt the dog but that goes the same with a halter.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by FranMan

Are you talking about a halter?

"negative reinforcement" being bad is an opinion and isn't bad in my eyes. It does the same thing a mom dog does the pups. It can be used and should be used without hurting the dog. If you jerk it as hard as you can of course you can hurt the dog but that goes the same with a halter.

No, a halter is used on the head. I'm referring to to the Easy Walk harness by Gentle Leader...there's no jerking, the dog's own pressure deters the pulling. Negative reinforcement is an option, but like I said before, it's never my first option...I usually succeed with other approaches before even considering it. Additionally, having worked with a low confidence dog, negative reinforcement would never be an option. I understand how and why jerking can and does work, however, most handlers do not use it appropriately...in fact it's often misused. I can't comment on your abilities, I've never seen you jerk a dog. However, most modern dog trainers that I've read, know, and learned from agree that positive reinforcement far outweighs negative reinforcement in the overall health of the dog. Maybe your dog doesn't have any problems, that's great, however, most dogs do come with problems, and negative reinforcement can ruin a dog in the wrong hands. That's just my opinion, I'm not expecting anyone to agree with it.

[Babs89]

Lots of info here so I will try to purchase the correct leash and halter. I am a total novice at this so all of the info I get can only help.

Today though I had to finally let him run as he pulled me so much he was in the air, like a huskie pulling a sled in a race! He will ruin my arm before I can get anywhere with him. Instead I let him go free but spent lots of time whistling for him to return to me and then I gave him a treat to reinforce that behavior. He has way too much energy and power. I'm feeling I should work with him this way until I can get further with him. I tried to get him to walk around me following my hand with the treat, as I saw in one of the short videos here on this website. I walk him in a city forest where it is possible to let him go free.

A friend came with her dog so maybe that was a bit of a distraction in the beginning. He continuously looked back at me but sometimes when he returned for the treat he barely stayed long enough for it before he ran off. I can't run well with him on the leash since a year ago I sprained my ankle and now I can only walk fast. He only wants to go fast, fast, fast! I am doing the right thing for now? Next step? I don't want to give up on him.

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

No, a halter is used on the head. I'm referring to to the Easy Walk harness by Gentle Leader...there's no jerking, the dog's own pressure deters the pulling. Negative reinforcement is an option, but like I said before, it's never my first option...I usually succeed with other approaches before even considering it. Additionally, having worked with a low confidence dog, negative reinforcement would never be an option. I understand how and why jerking can and does work, however, most handlers do not use it appropriately...in fact it's often misused. I can't comment on your abilities, I've never seen you jerk a dog. However, most modern dog trainers that I've read, know, and learned from agree that positive reinforcement far outweighs negative reinforcement in the overall health of the dog. Maybe your dog doesn't have any problems, that's great, however, most dogs do come with problems, and negative reinforcement can ruin a dog in the wrong hands. That's just my opinion, I'm not expecting anyone to agree with it.

What about a collar that pulls around his nose? I don't know the name of it. Maybe it's to prevent them from biting (which is not his problem). Is that a good alternative? Since this is not my dog I don't want to spend too much money.

[FranMan]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

No, a halter is used on the head. I'm referring to to the Easy Walk harness by Gentle Leader...there's no jerking, the dog's own pressure deters the pulling. Negative reinforcement is an option, but like I said before, it's never my first option...I usually succeed with other approaches before even considering it. Additionally, having worked with a low confidence dog, negative reinforcement would never be an option. I understand how and why jerking can and does work, however, most handlers do not use it appropriately...in fact it's often misused. I can't comment on your abilities, I've never seen you jerk a dog. However, most modern dog trainers that I've read, know, and learned from agree that positive reinforcement far outweighs negative reinforcement in the overall health of the dog. Maybe your dog doesn't have any problems, that's great, however, most dogs do come with problems, and negative reinforcement can ruin a dog in the wrong hands. That's just my opinion, I'm not expecting anyone to agree with it.

If you have a scared dog a pinch collar is a bad idea. A flat collar will work. I don't think this is the case tho. It seems like her dog has lots of drive, like a GSD should. I found the harness you are talking about.

http://www.premier.com/pages.cfm?id=77

I would have to see it work on a couple dogs. I am not sure I would buy in to it with a bigger dog with high drive. I can see the dog turning around and pulling away from you like tug of war or the leash going right under their legs and just keep pulling.

Do those modern dog trainers stop the bitch from nipping at their pups? Dogs negative reinforcement each other because that is how they communicate. In the wild weak dogs die and the strongest make the next gen of dogs. It is like my submissive beagle, very very laid back, the rotty will bug the snot out of her. She'll get sick of it and run him off. The beagle isn't like hey please stop, she nips, yelps, and barks at him. Just like Sabot's mom and littermates did to him.

I think you need positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. It is the same with kids. You can spot out positive reinforcement kid from a mile away. They are the kid on the planet that is going crazy. Mom is saying honey stop, please stop. honey stop, please stop. The kid is still going crazy...

Originally Posted by Babs89

Lots of info here so I will try to purchase the correct leash and halter. I am a total novice at this so all of the info I get can only help.

Today though I had to finally let him run as he pulled me so much he was in the air, like a huskie pulling a sled in a race! He will ruin my arm before I can get anywhere with him. Instead I let him go free but spent lots of time whistling for him to return to me and then I gave him a treat to reinforce that behavior. He has way too much energy and power. I'm feeling I should work with him this way until I can get further with him. I tried to get him to walk around me following my hand with the treat, as I saw in one of the short videos here on this website. I walk him in a city forest where it is possible to let him go free.

A friend came with her dog so maybe that was a bit of a distraction in the beginning. He continuously looked back at me but sometimes when he returned for the treat he barely stayed long enough for it before he ran off. I can't run well with him on the leash since a year ago I sprained my ankle and now I can only walk fast. He only wants to go fast, fast, fast! I am doing the right thing for now? Next step? I don't want to give up on him.


What about a collar that pulls around his nose? I don't know the name of it. Maybe it's to prevent them from biting (which is not his problem). Is that a good alternative? Since this is not my dog I don't want to spend too much money.

If you can't control the dog on leash he really doesn't need to be off leash in an open area with other dogs and people. http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/fitprong.pdf

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by FranMan

Do those modern dog trainers stop the bitch from nipping at their pups? Dogs negative reinforcement each other because that is how they communicate. In the wild weak dogs die and the strongest make the next gen of dogs. It is like my submissive beagle, very very laid back, the rotty will bug the snot out of her. She'll get sick of it and run him off. The beagle isn't like hey please stop, she nips, yelps, and barks at him. Just like Sabot's mom and littermates did to him.

No, a modern dog trainer would not stop a bitch from teaching her pups manners. However, if you want me to agree that I as a human can communicate as effectively to a dog as another dog can, I won't do that. If you want me to agree that negative reinforcement won't hurt a dog, even if it appears the correction was minor in my eyes, I won't do that. The problem with negative reinforcement training, as I've said before, it's often misused and over used. For example, the Monks of New Skete, the supposed originators of the alpha roll, now regret showing others this technique. Why? Because they intended it only to be used for the most serious dog crimes. However, now anyone who sees a Dog Whisperer show now thinks it's acceptable even for minor crimes like puppy nipping. I've seen first hand how the distance between being frustrated and over correcting can cause serious psycological problems in a dog. And I've also seen how positive reinforcement techniques work marvels on just about ever dog I've come in contact with. Why would I choose negative reinforcement techniques when the potential for harm may appear?...especially if I've found alternate methods equally effective? The fact that negative reinforcement works on some dogs, isn't a good enough excuse for me to ever recommend it to any dog, regardless if the dog has a high drive or not. I don't know if you've ever taken a look at the landscape of dog training in general, but what I see, are trainers like the person you recommended are falling off the map while other trainers, who are taking the lead from methods explored by Karen Pryor, are now popping up everywhere. I'll never tell you to stop what's working for you, nor can I recommend it if I chose it not to work for me. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Babs89

He only wants to go fast, fast, fast! I am doing the right thing for now? Next step? I don't want to give up on him.

What about a collar that pulls around his nose? I don't know the name of it. Maybe it's to prevent them from biting (which is not his problem). Is that a good alternative? Since this is not my dog I don't want to spend too much money.

Well, your sort of in a difficult predicament because this is your neighbor's dog. This fact is working against you because what you and the dog need is a good obedience trainer. This young pup could learn a lot of manners if the owner would invest in them. I don't know if you have the time, resources, or position to recommend this to your neighbor, but that's what I would do. However, Turid describes one technique in this link that may be useful to you. Questions & Ansvers from Turid Rugaas

The device used to prevent bitting is called a muzzle, and it wouldn't help with walking. You may be referring to a head halter. It is an alternative if other methods aren't working. However, I'm personally not a fan of head halters...it seems like a horse concept being applied to dogs, which isn't a bad thing, but some vets are concerned about the pressure that can be applied to the back of the ears on a dog. My cousin uses a head halter for her Great Dane, and it was very successful...but Great Danes are like horses aren't they? As a temporary alternative, I'm not all that opposed to it if it's the only tool available.

[Babs89]

Originally Posted by FranMan

A harness isn't going to help you control a dog. You need a pinch collar. Quick pops on the leash let the dog know he is in the wrong. He'll learn quick.

Another thing is feed the dog treats as you walk. As the dog walks beside you give him a piece of food. Make sure you say good heal, good boy , good whatever the name. good heal. feed a piece of food. You can use the cheap dog food. give one piece every couple of steps.

A pinch collar is the kind that tightens if they pull, generally looks like a metal chain, correct? Would it be dangerous to the dog since he's used to pulling me?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Babs89

A pinch collar is the kind that tightens if they pull, generally looks like a metal chain, correct? Would it be dangerous to the dog since he's used to pulling me?

No, a pinch collar has prongs coming out on the inside. The other you're describing is a choke chain. Between the two, the pinch collar is better suited. However, if you go this route, please have someone show you how to properly fit, use, and adjust a pinch collar.

[FranMan]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

No, a modern dog trainer would not stop a bitch from teaching her pups manners. However, if you want me to agree that I as a human can communicate as effectively to a dog as another dog can, I won't do that. If you want me to agree that negative reinforcement won't hurt a dog, even if it appears the correction was minor in my eyes, I won't do that. The problem with negative reinforcement training, as I've said before, it's often misused and over used. For example, the Monks of New Skete, the supposed originators of the alpha roll, now regret showing others this technique. Why? Because they intended it only to be used for the most serious dog crimes. However, now anyone who sees a Dog Whisperer show now thinks it's acceptable even for minor crimes like puppy nipping. I've seen first hand how the distance between being frustrated and over correcting can cause serious psycological problems in a dog. And I've also seen how positive reinforcement techniques work marvels on just about ever dog I've come in contact with. Why would I choose negative reinforcement techniques when the potential for harm may appear?...especially if I've found alternate methods equally effective? The fact that negative reinforcement works on some dogs, isn't a good enough excuse for me to ever recommend it to any dog, regardless if the dog has a high drive or not. I don't know if you've ever taken a look at the landscape of dog training in general, but what I see, are trainers like the person you recommended are falling off the map while other trainers, who are taking the lead from methods explored by Karen Pryor, are now popping up everywhere. I'll never tell you to stop what's working for you, nor can I recommend it if I chose it not to work for me. Sorry.

Like I said raising dogs is like raising kids. Everyone has their own idea on what is right. I haven't seen any clicker trainers. I guess when you are doing bite work the clicker doesn't cut it? "stop biting him, please stop, that's not nice" click click (just giving you a hard time)

I am sure their lots of the Pryor type trainers popping. My neighbor says she is a dog trainer. She even wanted to house break my beagle. Now this person is a said to be "dog trainer" they have 5-6 dogs. They have had lots of puppies through out the years also. I don't ask her what "kind" of trainer she is but I am guessing they aren't a pincher trainer. I watched their kid put up a huge whining fit because had to go to her room for 10 minutes. They said they don't spank because they don't want their kids not to like them... Now about twice a month two of their dogs get out and the chase is on!! There is zero OB and recall??? I don't think so. My neighbors are nice people and I would never tell them how to raise their kids or dogs. I just help them catch their dogs when they get loose. I will say my neighbor was shocked when she watched my rotty off lead heel while I walked him from the fenced area up to my house (about 200'). I didn't know she was watching. She said something when my 11 was walking Sabot over to her house meet up with her 13 year old to go for a walk. She said she was jealous how good my dog was. I told her it was because I took to a high dollar training class I left out that I work with him.

These people are popping up. Doesn't mean it is right. If you listen to the dog whisperer show they say the local trainers always fail and most of the time say to put the dogs down. They are alway trying to pass a law in Cali to ban spanking of kids under 3.....

I am going with dogs are pack animals. The alpha uses sniping (pinch collar) to correct bad things.

Originally Posted by Babs89

A pinch collar is the kind that tightens if they pull, generally looks like a metal chain, correct? Would it be dangerous to the dog since he's used to pulling me?

I know the automerge messes up my posts sometime. Scroll up and you'll see a link that has the info you need on pinch collars.

He pulls on a flat collar. Just putting on the pinch will prolly slow down his pulling. It isn't going to feel good pull with the pinch on. You don't want tension on the leash. Light pops on the leash will get him to back off some. When you are popping it say heel. If he doesn't stop tension on the leash stop walking and wait until he calms start the walk again. If he is heeling make sure you say good heel, good boy. The adding some food will help also.

Do you need to talk to the owner about want you are doing. He may even be willing to send you and the dog to training. Tell him you want to train the dog to sit, heel, down, and stay. Maybe he is just lazy and doesn't want to do it? Have you thought about seeing if he'd sell you the dog?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by FranMan

Like I said raising dogs is like raising kids. Everyone has their own idea on what is right. I haven't seen any clicker trainers. I guess when you are doing bite work the clicker doesn't cut it? "stop biting him, please stop, that's not nice" click click (just giving you a hard time)

I know you're just giving me a hard time, and I don't mind. I understand both schools of thought, I just happen to now prescribe to one different than yours. However, if you've noticed I haven't been criticizing your method, just defending mine. I wouldn't use a clicker for a pup and bite inhibition, and it doesn't go exactly how you described it, but I also wouldn't jab my dog in the neck to stop him/her from biting either. I'm sure there are many ways to the end result, I can only offer what I've found to be the best.

Originally Posted by FranMan

I am sure their lots of the Pryor type trainers popping. My neighbor says she is a dog trainer. She even wanted to house break my beagle. Now this person is a said to be "dog trainer" they have 5-6 dogs. They have had lots of puppies through out the years also. I don't ask her what "kind" of trainer she is but I am guessing they aren't a pincher trainer. I watched their kid put up a huge whining fit because had to go to her room for 10 minutes. They said they don't spank because they don't want their kids not to like them... Now about twice a month two of their dogs get out and the chase is on!! There is zero OB and recall??? I don't think so. My neighbors are nice people and I would never tell them how to raise their kids or dogs. I just help them catch their dogs when they get loose. I will say my neighbor was shocked when she watched my rotty off lead heel while I walked him from the fenced area up to my house (about 200'). I didn't know she was watching. She said something when my 11 was walking Sabot over to her house meet up with her 13 year old to go for a walk. She said she was jealous how good my dog was. I told her it was because I took to a high dollar training class I left out that I work with him.

I can't comment on your neighbors training abilities. And I tend not to accept anecdotal evidence as proof of one training method being better than another. Again, I can only offer what I know to work...just like you do.

Originally Posted by FranMan

These people are popping up. Doesn't mean it is right. If you listen to the dog whisperer show they say the local trainers always fail and most of the time say to put the dogs down. They are alway trying to pass a law in Cali to ban spanking of kids under 3.....

I was spanked occasionally when I was younger, and I can't say it was a disservice to me...but I also can't say it benefited me. But last time I checked, I didn't need to jab a kid in the neck, or pull on his/her ear to follow my lead. I would also say that a child's ability to reason is far greater than that of a dog. So aren't we comparing apples to oranges here? And if you think finding a good local trainer is about flipping through the yellow pages for the one with the flashiest ad, I'd suggest more work could be done. The problem with trainers these days is that pretty much anybody can call themselves a professional. But I would say the difference between the local trainer you described and the ones I've worked with are vastly different, and good research can lead you to a better trainer.

Originally Posted by FranMan

I am going with dogs are pack animals. The alpha uses sniping (pinch collar) to correct bad things.

NILIF alone can establish alpha status without jerk and puke methods. I'm going with dogs are pack animals too, but I'd suggest a study in "dog" pack behavior is slightly different than "wolf" pack behavior, and that the occurrence of sniping is not as often as one might think...especially if you take one of Cesar's shows to heart.

The bottom line is, I know what you do to correct your dog...or I should say I know many of the methods available out there for correction. I haven't always prescribed to positive reinforcement...I didn't know any better, and alternatives did work. However, having made the switch, I don't have any examples or reasons why I would ever go back. Heck, everyone should know by now that smoking causes cancer, but people still do that too, right? We have the choice. But I would feel very foolish to recommend one method when I know another has worked better for me or could cause harm.

[FranMan]

oh yeah! well how about this!
http://boostedmopar.com/temp/sabot_snow.wmv

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by FranMan

oh yeah! well how about this!
http://boostedmopar.com/temp/sabot_snow.wmv

I agree, your dog is awesome!

[Babs89]

I looked at a pinch collar, wow, the first pull would do major damage to his neck, or am I wrong? The owner does not mind that I walk and attempt to train the dog. He is totally oblivious to training methods and seems to have no interest in it. The dog is on a short chain. It breaks my heart but I have absolutley no influence over the owner, who is basically an idiot who should never have gotten the dog in the first place. I am afraid there will be a bad ending to this story. (I live in an apt. so I can never keep this dog). Is there an online video showing the pinch collar in use somewhere? When I get the dog he is jumping all over me while I attach the leash. Then he immediately starts to pull me with all of his might. He must weigh 25 lbs by now. If the pinch collar will do the trick quickly I want to try it. I can't manage his pulling any longer. My wrist is starting to hurt when I am not with him. I don't want permanent damage!

Is there an online video of a Pryor trainer? Your discussion about popping, Pryor, clickers, etc has lost me! As I said I am a novice.