[cshellenberger]

Originally Posted by FranMan

People here would rather see a mean dog put down then fixed with some harder methods. They would rather just give their dog hugs and treats. Even if it means it take 6 month to get their dog to heel....

Hmm, The only dog I ever had put down for aggression put 50 stitches in my daughters face.

As far as Positive reenforcement, I'll use techniques proven by people who are Veterinarians, have degrees in animal psychology, and used by professional trainers to train not only dogs, but wild cats, elephants, Dolphins, Killer Whales any many other animals SAFELY. I have dealt with resource gaurding, fear aggression, and abused animals in my work as a rescuer. I know ther techniques work, and I don't have to invade an animals space and take a chance on getting bitten.

People who coddle their dog and spoil them are the ones who wind up with problems, NOT those who use Positive reenforcement. Positive reenforcement doesn't mean you lure a dog for life, nor does it mean you spoil the dog. It means you give the dog a choice, and reward for the RIGHT choice until the RIGHT choice is prefferred by the dog and becomes a habit.

The fact is, I've trained useing BOTH methods. I learned to trian useing choke chains, pull and jerk and rolling dogs. I looked for a better way wen the methods failed fearful dogs. I found that better way.

If you'd like some reading based in BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE....

“Don’t Shoot The Dog” by Karen Pryor
A great read and a great explanation of why positive training works.

"How To Teach A New Dog Old Tricks” by Dr. Ian Dunbar
How to for positive training with an emphasis on problem prevention.

"Calming Signals" by Turid Rugass, book and video. No one knows dogs better than Turid. Learn what dogs are really saying

"The Other End Of The Leash" by Dr. Patricia McConnell

“Bringing Light To Shadow: A dog trainer’s diary” by Pamela Dennison
Shadow bit. A lot. This is the story of how Shadow learned that not biting was better than biting through a program of positive reinforcement.

"Dominance Theory And Dogs" by James O'Heare

"Coercion And It's Fallout" by Murray Sidman

"Genetics And The Social Behavior Of The Dog" by John Paul Scott and John L. Fuller


I know, this is alot of reading, most people are too lazy to do it, they want to sit and watch TV and have some 'guru' endorsed by Hollywood know nothings.

Originally Posted by crazydog06

What he does is what wolves do! I am a firm beleiver in Cesar Millan. What he does works and he is usually a last resort for people. I got my dog to walk by my side now and she knows that I am Alpha thanks to him1 But it is everyone's opinion!

WRONG!!! Alpha Wolves ONLY forcefully roll others when the INTEND TO KILL THEM. A submissive ALWAYS offers it's belly, NOT the other way around. Also, the only Wolves who bully are lower ranking pack members who are seeking to move up the chain. The Alpha control quietly and with a look.

Also, Dogs ARE NOT wolves. Wild dog packs have completely different pack structure.

In wolf packs, ONLY the Alpha pair, which mate for life, are allowed to procreate. If another bitch has a litter, they are killed as is the bitch, it's a challenge to the Alpha female.

In dog packs all mature females are allowed to procreate.

This is just hte most obvious differance, there are many others.

Dog packs also only force rolls with killing intent. It's one of the few commonalities.

That's why rolling a dog can (and often does) EASILY result in a bite. The dog THINKS (instinctivly) it is going to be killed.

[Moreau]

Hi all, I was just reading this thread and I admit I've never heard of either of those people. Maybe that show isn't on in Canada?

I do watch Good Dog with Dr. Stanley Coren, have any or you watched his show or read his books? I really like his calm manner. Just wondering what you guys thought of him?

Link to show
http://www.lifenetwork.ca/ontv/title...?titleid=43424

His website
http://www.stanleycoren.com/library.htm

[opokki]

Originally Posted by Moreau

I do watch Good Dog with Dr. Stanley Coren, have any or you watched his show or read his books? I really like his calm manner. Just wondering what you guys thought of him?

I've read his book "How to Speak Dog" and really liked it. I did'nt know he had a show though....I'll have to check it out.

[eley]

Originally Posted by cshellenberger

People who coddle their dog and spoil them are the ones who wind up with problems, NOT those who use Positive reenforcement. Positive reenforcement doesn't mean you lure a dog for life, nor does it mean you spoil the dog. It means you give the dog a choice, and reward for the RIGHT choice until the RIGHT choice is prefferred by the dog and becomes a habit.

It's funny how people usually mistake possitive based training with permissiveness and spoiling a dog. The fact that no physical corrections are employed does not mean that the trainer is being bland, weak or permissive.

I have no problem at all with Millan, I think he does a lot of great things for dogs. His work disspelling myths created around bully breed is admirable, as is his devotion to dogs, I honestly believe he does what he does with the dog's best interest in mind. The being said, I do have a problem with the vast amount of fans he has that if it wasn't for his TV show they would have no interest whatsoever in dogs, also the fans that use him as his sole source of information.

I can't tell you much it irritates me when I post a question in either this or any other web forum and I get a response along the lines of "your dog needs rules boundaries and limitations" or "do you do excercise discipline and affection, IN that order?". Lets face it, what bothers most of us about Millan is not Millan himself, it's the bunch of people regurgitating whatever it is he says, pretending that whatching his show and reading his book will give them the knowledge to give advice.

I remember a long time ago when Jaques Cousteau was on tv, all of the sudden everyone was interested in marine biology, I know of at least thre people that wanted to become marine biologist around that time. Then it was Carl Sagan, aspiring astronomers popped up everywhere. Today it's Cesar Millan, this just goes to proove than fame and exposure are a double edged sword.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by eley

It's funny how people usually mistake possitive based training with permissiveness and spoiling a dog. The fact that no physical corrections are employed does not mean that the trainer is being bland, weak or permissive.

I have no problem at all with Millan, I think he does a lot of great things for dogs. His work disspelling myths created around bully breed is admirable, as is his devotion to dogs, I honestly believe he does what he does with the dog's best interest in mind. The being said, I do have a problem with the vast amount of fans he has that if it wasn't for his TV show they would have no interest whatsoever in dogs, also the fans that use him as his sole source of information.

I can't tell you much it irritates me when I post a question in either this or any other web forum and I get a response along the lines of "your dog needs rules boundaries and limitations" or "do you do excercise discipline and affection, IN that order?". Lets face it, what bothers most of us about Millan is not Millan himself, it's the bunch of people regurgitating whatever it is he says, pretending that whatching his show and reading his book will give them the knowledge to give advice.

I remember a long time ago when Jaques Cousteau was on tv, all of the sudden everyone was interested in marine biology, I know of at least thre people that wanted to become marine biologist around that time. Then it was Carl Sagan, aspiring astronomers popped up everywhere. Today it's Cesar Millan, this just goes to proove than fame and exposure are a double edged sword.

So are you saying that a dog shouldn't have limits and boundries and rules to live by in the home? Mine does, and she gets along fine with everyone.

[squirt1968]

I watch him quite often I saw the show where the dog would not walk on the bare floor. you may not agree with his method but in the end the dog walked on the floor comfortably and that was the outcome they were after. I agree there is no one way to accomplish things. Whnat works for one does not for another we all have to find what works for us and our dog.

[eley]

Originally Posted by Captbob

So are you saying that a dog shouldn't have limits and boundries and rules to live by in the home? Mine does, and she gets along fine with everyone.

I'm not saying that at all, in fact I couldn't agree more. What I do not agree with is the people that don't have a true understanding of a problem yet voice their "opinion", and this so called opinion is nothing other than something they heard on TV.

As I said, I have no problem with Millan or his methods, in fact I happen to agree with a lot of the things he says. It is the subset of his fans that before him had no knowledge whatsoever about dogs, their sole source of dog knowledge comes from watching his tv show and perhaps reading his book, and once they saw a show or two go around giving advice and voicing their opinion on how a dog should be handled. The same people that heaven forbid you should present them with an alternative way of dealing with a problem because they saw on TV that "their" way actually works faster and better. I wonder if those same people go around giving legal advice based on what they saw on Judge Judy.

I think these people simply regurgitating CMs mantras, would be as much as someone asking for cooking advice and hearing "kick it up another notch!!" as advice.

THOSE are the ones that irritate me.

[opokki]

Originally Posted by eley

It's funny how people usually mistake possitive based training with permissiveness and spoiling a dog. The fact that no physical corrections are employed does not mean that the trainer is being bland, weak or permissive.

So true and worth repeating.

[Captbob]

Originally Posted by opokki

So true and worth repeating.

I have met quite a few people that think that in order to train dogs, no matter what the problem, they can do it by petting, hugging, pleading , and feeding treats to the dog.. Sorry, but that doesn't work in my instances...

[eley]

Originally Posted by Captbob

I have met quite a few people that think that in order to train dogs, no matter what the problem, they can do it by petting, hugging, pleading , and feeding treats to the dog.. Sorry, but that doesn't work in my instances...

You are 100% right, petting, huggin, cuddling, and feeding treats for the sakes of treating is useless, and has little if anything to do with true possitive reinforcement based training. The idea that a +R trainer is basically a walking treat dispenser, is as true as the idea that a non+R is brutal and abussive. Whether you use correction based training, +r based training, or something in the middle (what I use) timming is crucial. Rewards or corrections should be done in a timely fashion, otherwise they are useless.

People that think that clicker training or any purely possitive method is all love and rainbows should look a little harder. These methods simply think of alternative ways of getting a dog to do or stop doing something, and while very useful and effective, they are not the magic bullet of dog training.

[opokki]

Originally Posted by Captbob

I have met quite a few people that think that in order to train dogs, no matter what the problem, they can do it by petting, hugging, pleading , and feeding treats to the dog.. Sorry, but that doesn't work in my instances...

I wouldn't think that would work in most instances, not just yours. As eley has stated, that is not what positve reinforcement training is all about.

[SadesMom]

Wow, my views on CM. I like his show personally, but I also like watching Family Guy and Futurama on Adult Swim. Doesn't say much. It's a tv show there's sometimes downright ignorant (as in do not know any better and are completely oblivious to the fact) that their dog gets away with everything, and yet all they do is complain about it. For example: My dog digs up the backyard... I've not tried anything to stop him, can you stop him for me? lol sorry just amusing to me.

I've seen that many owners have their own ideas to training and reward/punishment. CM is just a tv show "character" (based on the fact that although he does know about dog behavior his shows are still cut to bring in the highest viewer volume) and I would say that differently if I knew him personally. I have found that some of his techniques are quite enlightening I have found some of the common sense techniques that I would have probably never thought of or just completely didnt notice.

Overall I think it's a fun show to watch, but it's just that, it's a show. Not my dog, not my hometown and usually no behavior problems that I have. It's on TV to make money so it's going to show the high/low points that will catch a watchers attention. And that's the Average Joe's attention, not everyone is a dog lover/owner/trainer/etc. XD

And I think it's funny when he shakes his body like and excited doggie. It amuses me lol...

[KatzNK9]

I love his show (never miss it) & have read his latest book ... I'm a big fan.

I don't agree with all of his methods but you can't argue with some of the amazing successes he has had.

I started watching his show right before I got my golden pup. Ozzy is naturally a dominant one (11 months old in a few days) & I can't even begin to tell you how "thinking like Cesar" & using some of his techniques has helped me. Ozzy knows who his pack leader is ... and I have Cesar to thank for that.

[crazydog06]

I like him, but I do have some questions on his techniques. I watch his show every Friday and some reruns. I think that as long as he has changed the owners way of thinking, then he has done his job. If he could only change my neighbors minds!

[FranMan]

I let my buddy take my Ed Frawley DVD for the weekend. He even sells Cesar's book http://www.leerburg.com/975.htm

and more
http://www.leerburg.com/books.htm

[CrzyBritNAmerica]

I personally like Cesar and agree with most, but not always all of his methods. I know it is a show so of course they try to get good ratings and all that tv stuff, but I believe that Cesar is just someone who understands dogs. He has done a lot of good things for dogs, expecially dogs known for their agggression problems. He has catch phrases like "excercise, discipline and affection" because [i]it is[i] a tv show, but in reality he has done lots for dogkind.

I think he and all over dog behaviorists are a great asset to the world because there are SO many people who have dogs and don't take the time to understand them. Dogs do work in packs and if you have a spoiled rotten dog that has no limits then you will most likely have problems...I used to think that was common sense...but again there are so many people who don't know about dogs that they do it anyway. To me it doesn't just go for dogs either. Think of what happens if your children are given every little thing that they ask or moan for...they become selfish and have a lot of problem sharing and what not. It's the same way for dogs IMO. If you a dog learns that it can get away with whatever it wants to then it's going to try it's best to do that. I have come accross this in my life. My ex-roommate and I adopted a dog together and he became her dog as I adopted Bridgette (my dog at the moment) as my dog. I wanted Bridgette to be well behaved and obedient as well as a friendly companion. I admit, she is very much loved and mildly spoiled, but she knows exactly what she can and cannot do. As for Billy (my ex-roommates dog) she treats him like a person. He is allowed to do whatever he wants and Sarah actually gets mad at anyone who tries to tell him "no". Well since I have moved out and have a totally different life, Billy has gone totally downhill. We had him over to stay with us while she went away and he was awful! He pooped and peed inside our house (he is, or i should say was housetrained when I moved out) and he barked at everyone who came by and growled at other dogs...it was a less than fun experience. Well if he was going to live with us and be around my dog, he was certainly not going to keep this up for 2 weeks! I immediately started to tell him "no" and correct his bad behavior and reward the good and after only a few days he was being as good as ever.

It just saddens me that people think they can let their pets do anything they want. Yes, the Dog Whisperer is only a tv show, but a lot of what Cesar says about how to treat your dogs is very much true.

That's just my opinion anway. LoL.

[cshellenberger]

Originally Posted by Captbob

I have met quite a few people that think that in order to train dogs, no matter what the problem, they can do it by petting, hugging, pleading , and feeding treats to the dog.. Sorry, but that doesn't work in my instances...

That is NOT what Positive reenforcement is. If it was, their woild be a lot of big cat trainers walking around without hands or faces! Petting Hugging nad Pleading with a dog is like apeasing a child, you wind up with a spoiled brat.

My dogs have limits, they know what they are. I set them up to succeed, give thm the training. I start with Bite inhibition at 8 weeks, along with Doggy Zen to teach them it's better to wait than to snach things. This training establishes ME as the leader WITHOUT punishment. I provide all good things as long as MY conditions are met.

Example: Dog jumps up on human, human pushes dog off, the dog thinks the human is playing a game and jumps again.

Dog jumps on human, human turns back and tucks hands until the dog calms down (turning your back is a 'calming signal') human counts to five, THEN give CALM praise for NOT jumping makeing NOT jumping a better deal.

Read through the Doggy Zen article, it's based on BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE. It is the basis for a good NILIF program. By training a dog to wait for permission to eat, or take treats, or to leave items alone you establish yourself as the leader.

[Elijah]

Example: Dog jumps up on human, human pushes dog off, the dog thinks the human is playing a game and jumps again.

Dog jumps on human, human turns back and tucks hands until the dog calms down (turning your back is a 'calming signal') human counts to five, THEN give CALM praise for NOT jumping makeing NOT jumping a better deal.

But, Carla-is this really a big deal? I guess I'm from the old school that believes when a dog does this, he/she just wants to be acknowledged, want to play, likes you and wants your attention, etc. One instance this past Thanksgiving was where my sister and I went over to some people she knew and the house was full of people...including a six pound Yorkie. He took up with me early on and when we sat down to eat, he came up to my chair and started scratching on my leg (didn't hurt of course, just his way to get my attention). He was looking for a hand out, which I readily acknowledged by giving him a couple of green beans. He had tried this with a few others and they ignored him. Maybe I shouldn't have given in but, big brown eyes were always a weakness!

[cshellenberger]

Yes, it can be. I just checked up on a Mastiff that was inthe pound. At six months, she's in quarenteen for jumping up on a person and SCRATCHING them, breaking the skin. If she had been taught by her owners NOT to jump, she wouldn't be there.

Honestly,allowing a dog to jump is rude and can cause injury. Many people allow small dogs to get away with things they wouldn't allow in a larger breed. Small dogs can scratch, and frankly it's irritating.

[Elijah]

I suppose you're right. I wouldn't want them doing it with just anybody...me mostly as I don't mind, although Katie did scratch me several times doing just that. I guess they can't distinguish who it's ok with and not and we can't explain to them. When I think of this, I was primarily thinking of small (30 pounds and under) dogs.