[blunder]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

It's not a question of 'if'...people already do. http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DHR230

Sorry to say it but,,, they are yet to put a single "All Age Point" on a dog, let alone a "Win" (5 points) which is required for a FC or AFC title.
When they do, be sure to let me know.
10 points required for a FC, 5 by way of a win. 15 points required for an AFC, 5 by way of a win.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see someone develop a positive only training program for these upper level dogs. Just hasn't been done yet.

[kellytoonces]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Since you mentioned my name I feel as though it would be polite to respond. Though I'm not sure I appreciate your tact since I don't know many 'professionals' who would do the same. I am NOT a professional, do not claim to be one, and refuse to call myself one because I am NOT certified as one. Are you certified? If so with whom? You're certainly not a CPDT if you're not familiar with learning theory.

That being said I've served hundred and hundreds of dogs, of all types and breed as a volunteer at my local municipal shelter. I work closely with our on site behaviorist, and help wherever I can. But, my experience says nothing about yours, nor does yours about mine. No one should care about how I've trained my dog if I can't communicate the principles by which I've done that. So if this question was an attempt at one-ups-manship, you're not likely to succeed in a respected way. How you respond to the questions in this thread is all the evidence anyone will need to know about your professionalism. So far all I know about you is that you're easily offended by the simple question. I've found this to be a common problem with e-collar trainers, and I'm not sure why. Perhaps you could enlighten us.

It's not a debate. There are a lot of people who don't know about e-collars (and even e-collar users who don't know what learning theory principles they're using with the e-collar) who want answers to simple questions. Seriously, if you're telling me that you use the e-collar like a clicker, shouldn't I assume you know how to use a clicker? And if your video does not illustrate the e-collar being used as a secondary reinforcer, what are we to wonder about of the e-collar?

First, anyone who would allow their dog off lead in an area that was not suitable for a dog to be off-lead would keep their dog on leash. So the question you're posing is a silly one, and the answer is simple...you'd manage the situation. Plus, your e-collar is no guarantee the dog will respond. No dog responds to a cue 100% of the time, regardless of how many titles they have. They are still a dog with their own internal motivations. So if you make this claim, you'll demonstrate an understanding that I don't know of good e-collar trainers. Also, there is more than one reinforcer than food, but even non-food-motivated dogs can find food reinforcing...they have to eat eventually, right? And before you ask, yes, sometimes starving a dog is necessary to save their life. I could pose the same question of you...what do you do with a dog that doesn't respond to the buzzer? You're likely to punish the dog, or not use the collar at all. What does a clicker trainer do if the dog is afraid of the click (this does happen)? We use our voice, or a different audible sound, (deaf dogs use a thumbs up sign), as a secondary reinforcer.

I don't mean to be rude, but I do mean to be critical. Professional trainers know how to answer critical questions without being offended. But I'm not sure if promoting your product will be beneficial to you, or in answering these questions, if you don't have a basic knowledge of learning theory. Every good trainer should, otherwise you won't be able to communicate the principals by which the dog's learn. That's all people care about...that their dog's learn. They don't care about the tools being used, and most if not all, we not care to make that investment if it's not needed. Your average companion dog does not need an e-collar, or a clicker for that matter, and you should be aware of that. Just trying to be constructive...not rude.

I thought when you said you were passionate about this training and had workered with lots of dogs that you were a trainer .my mistake . and I merely posted a video about doing something different and all you can do is talk about clickers If you posted a thread about clickers I would not get on there going on and on and pager collars?? and learning principles with e-collars are well documented Dr Daniel Tortora wrote a book 30 years ago entitled ''understanding electronic dog training'' and Jim and Phyiliss Dobbs www.dobbsdogs.com go into great detail not to mention the worlds top retriever trainer Mike Lardy the fact you think your the only one who has a grasp on this is baffling to me?? practical application is a lot different than reading ...anyhow its pointless to continue this discussion ..can no one on here can post a video of their own dog working with a clicker?? if your intention is to make sure no one is exposed any method but clickers you are doing a good job

[blunder]

Originally Posted by kellytoonces@aol.com

I thought when you said you were passionate about this training and had workered with lots of dogs that you were a trainer .my mistake . and I merely posted a video about doing something different and all you can do is talk about clickers If you posted a thread about clickers I would not get on there going on and on and pager collars?? and learning principles with e-collars are well documented Dr Daniel Tortora wrote a book 30 years ago entitled ''understanding electronic dog training'' and Jim and Phyllis Dobbs www.dobbsdogs.com go into great detail not to mention the worlds top retriever trainer Mike Lardy the fact you think your the only one who has a grasp on this is baffling to me?? practical application is a lot different than reading ...anyhow its pointless to continue this discussion ..can no one on here can post a video of their own dog working with a clicker?? if your intention is to make sure no one is exposed any method but clickers you are doing a good job

Trust me Lardy doesn't use an e-collar "pager"
Have you ever been to Handjem to see how Mike trains?

Their training program, regardless of the fact that they are very fair to the dog, can still only be described as "force training".

Regardless, collar use is not what sets Mike Lardy apart from other dog trainers. In the 50+ years that I have been playing dog games I have only seen one other trainer that even comes close to Mike's ability to read dogs, and that was Rex Carr.

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by kellytoonces@aol.com

I thought when you said you were passionate about this training and had workered with lots of dogs that you were a trainer .my mistake . and I merely posted a video about doing something different and all you can do is talk about clickers If you posted a thread about clickers I would not get on there going on and on and pager collars?? and learning principles with e-collars are well documented Dr Daniel Tortora wrote a book 30 years ago entitled ''understanding electronic dog training'' and Jim and Phyiliss Dobbs www.dobbsdogs.com go into great detail not to mention the worlds top retriever trainer Mike Lardy the fact you think your the only one who has a grasp on this is baffling to me?? practical application is a lot different than reading ...anyhow its pointless to continue this discussion ..can no one on here can post a video of their own dog working with a clicker?? if your intention is to make sure no one is exposed any method but clickers you are doing a good job

Im sure not many people are following this thread.

Post a thread that asks for clicker training videos. Im sure you will get them.

I don't know. In all your posts you seem to be advertising yourself. Not sharing. When asked questions about your methods you get evasive.

Debating collars and clickers should be an easy thing for a pro to do, no matter what "side" they are on.

[pamperedpups]

The poster "splash" may not be following this thread, but I believe her young Border Collie is trained using a clicker. She has a video posted on the General Topic forum that you should look up.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

Im sure not many people are following this thread.

Post a thread that asks for clicker training videos. Im sure you will get them.

I don't know. In all your posts you seem to be advertising yourself. Not sharing. When asked questions about your methods you get evasive.

Debating collars and clickers should be an easy thing for a pro to do, no matter what "side" they are on.

Sphynx
When you're right, you're right. It was not that big a jump, when you mention the dog on the video is for sale and you have what looks like an e-mail address as your name. I'm sorry that's what advertising is all about, then add the fact that she has mentioned being a member of the Dogtra e-collar team.

Blunder
I always thought that reading dog and being fair to the dog were the prime goals in dog training. Oh! and also coming up with a finished product, because in any kind of bird-dog trials competition that's what it's all about or the trainer is out of business.

Trust me Lardy doesn't use an e-collar "pager"
Have you ever been to Handjem to see how Mike trains?

Their training program, regardless of the fact that they are very fair to the dog, can still only be described as "force training".

Regardless, collar use is not what sets Mike Lardy apart from other dog trainers. In the 50+ years that I have been playing dog games I have only seen one other trainer that even comes close to Mike's ability to read dogs, and that was Rex Carr.

I have stated book reading before on the forum.

I would not get on there going on and on and pager collars?? and learning principles with e-collars are well documented Dr Daniel Tortora wrote a book 30 years ago entitled ''understanding electronic dog training'' and Jim and Phyiliss Dobbs

When they start bringing up the books to read, especially when I was using an e-collar 10 years previous to book publication. I lose interest. I see nothing wrong with the video program as long as people understand the video they see is not going to be a bad video because that will end up on the cutting room floor. You have no way of knowing how long the dog has been in training because there is no trainer I know going to put a bad video out there. I train the dog and then the owner gets a DVD of their dog doing the work with instructions on DVD on how to handle and continue work on their dog. It's not a DVD of a dog with 5 years of work before the taping as that would be worthless to the owners. I'm not saying that anybody on forum is making bogus DVDs/Videos, I'm saying, I am very pessimistic about stuff. Oh! I am a negative type trainer and I have no dogs for sale. So this would be a very bad self type advertising program. This is not meant to offend anybody, it's the real life dog world as I see it.

[blunder]

Blunder
I always thought that reading dog and being fair to the dog were the prime goals in dog training. Oh! and also coming up with a finished product, because in any kind of bird-dog trials competition that's what it's all about or the trainer is out of business.

Absolutely, but Lardy takes it to a completely different level.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by blunder

Absolutely, but Lardy takes it to a completely different level.

Well, if there is a Tiger Wood in golf, a Tom Brady in football etc. There is the same with dog trainers. That's the way life is, what disturbs me is the would-be contenders that do the talk, but not the walk. Then when you ask about something they immediately start telling you books/articles/studies/DVDs to read/look at. It's mind-boggling, when a new customer drops their dog off I am asked at least 2 questions for sure, 1. How am I going to train their dog? 2. How much am I going to be working their dog? 1. I show them the Prong Collar and explain how I work. 2. I explain that I don't know how long I am going to work their dog, might be dly, might be twice a day, might be every other day. I tell them I have to get inside the dog's head. The dog will tell me, not a book.