I would have no problem sharing my dogs on video if I had a way to do it. Just thought I'd add - Many dog sport competitors train using clickers including those with Agility, Flyball, Freestyle and Disc dogs. Many top behaviorists incorporate clicker training into rehabilitating dogs with serious behavioral issues. And trainers of all sorts of beasts (whales, dolphins, bears, etc.) use variations of clicker training to get their animals to perform certain behaviors. This information should make searching for videos a bit easier.
doesn't everyone have a digital camera theses days?? you can get them on ebay cheap! thats where I got mine.and training dogs is much different than training wild animals bears turn on the trainers and whales and dolphins are in a controlled enviroment.I had some puppies that were in a movie and the trainers trained them with a clicker but 4 of them were trained to be ''Marley'' luckily cause the day of the shoot three of them decided to follow the ''buzzer'' puppies instead of the clicker.in the movie Owen wilson says ''boo! as the way to pick the puppy.the one that did it was pefect though!
your right its difficult to detect tone on the internet! I apologize! I am very passionate about this tool because I have seen the results and how it allows people with limited skill to work the dog off leash like a pro but we are always incorporating new things into the training I love to see other methods in action!
Mmm ya, and clicker trainers are passionate about their tool as well, and for good reason. So when the question is asked, how do you phase the tool out?, this is a common question posed on clicker trainers – I would expect this question and there is a response that negates the emotional argument (if one is implied). There is a methodology to phase out a clicker, and it’s probably the same methodology using an e-collar, if you are in fact using it as a secondary reinforcer, and not as a primary, aversive consequence. There are a lot of people who do not want to rely on a tool, especially one that’s commonly used for aversion…I would be one of them. I wouldn’t even own a clicker if I didn’t find it useful, and I certainly wouldn’t own one if my dog depended on it.
mm ya? I;m not sure what that means but maybe we should just start another thread about clicker training and everyone can post thier videos on there! I would love to see your dogs in action!
I have been e-collar training for as long as there have been e-collars, so perhaps I can clear up some misconceptions.
You never phase the e-collar out during training/practice. From the time the pup starts a formal basics program (5-7 months) until it finishes it's competitive/working career (8-12 years) the dog has the collar on during training (not that I said "on", not "used"). This is to prevent the dog from becoming collar wise, and insures compliance when in competition with a naked neck. This is no different than putting a normal collar on the dog to train or take it for a walk.
In the first video the collar is being used as a "cue" and is no different than using your voice, whistle, or anything else. When clicker training the click is a "marker" not a "cue" so that is comparing apples and oranges. If it was used as a "marker" you would only buzz after the dog had returned.
The ONLY real reason for using an e-collar is to facilitate remote training, there just isn't any other 1/4 mile long leash. Before the days of the e-collar those long distance corrections were normally done with slingshots, shotguns and tennis shoes.
To be used properly the e-collar is matched to the intensity of the dogs normal training collar/lead. This insures that both have an identical meaning to the dog. So in reality the e-collar is exactly the same thing as any other training collar, it only uses a different medium to do the same thing.
Bottom line, the e-collar is just another tool, and is used exactlly like any other collar/lead. Doesn't make any difference if you use the pager or the shock.
The ONLY real reason for using an e-collar is to facilitate remote training, there just isn't any other 1/4 mile long leash. Before the days of the e-collar those long distance corrections were normally done with slingshots and shotguns.
I can just imagine a SAR dog being shot to continue a search for a cadaver...and sending a second dog out to locate, now, two cadavers.
BLAST!!!!!!!!!!! I lost internet for a few hours and consequently lost my post/reply. Ugh. Now the thread is two(2) pages?!? Oh well.
¿Why is it that dog trainers seem to fall into a narrow methodology/technique?
Only natural that people will stay within their comfort zone.
"this worked for me before, so it is what I will use forever"
In reality a closed mind to change is and always has been our own worse enemy. Personally I think that people that don't have the dogs best interest in mind are few and far between. Without exception I believe that every methodology change is the result of someone wondering if there is a better way
doesn't everyone have a digital camera theses days??
I do have a digital camera. But my camera is a digital SLR, which is strictly made for taking high quality photos (like the kind you would sell) - it's not capable of video, and I will have to buy a lesser quality digital camera, or a digital camcorder, to take videos with... I bought what was more important to me, being a photographer.
Those last puppy videos are not the way you would normally use a clicker in training. It's like the opposite of actual clicker training lol...
Been a lot of years since the shotgun court martial was used, I hope. It was used on all kinds of bird dogs. That's one of the main reasons I got my 1st e-collar.
mm ya? I;m not sure what that means but maybe we should just start another thread about clicker training and everyone can post thier videos on there! I would love to see your dogs in action!
wait. Your telling me your a proffesional dog trainer that hasn't ever used a clicker? Or even been around clicker trained dogs?
What kind of bubble do you live in?
I find your promo videos interesting. Just not the way i'd do it. I like my clicker.
[quote=Criosphynx;375241]wait. Your telling me your a proffesional dog trainer that hasn't ever used a clicker? Or even been around clicker trained dogs?
What kind of bubble do you live in?
I find your promo videos interesting. Just not the way i'd do it. I like my clicker. [/QUOTE yes I have trained dogs professionally for 27 years and have had my own bussiness since 1991 I started out training gun dogs and I can assure you they do not use clickers I have worked for differnt kennels all over the US not one ever used clickers but they were all working dog kennels sporting or protection dogs here we specialize in working and sporting breeds and dogs with aggression issues I also breed Labradors and German Shepherd dogs from Imported lines I am curiuos what breeds you and curbside prophet generally train are they smaller breeds do you give group classes or have in house training for your clients? I could say the same to you guys regarding the collar? I could see if I had posted a thread called pager collar versus clicker?? I'm not sure how this got into such a debate! and I will tell you the movie trainers that trained the puppies for the movie said they never even use clickers and they do all the big movies ..so its great it work for you guys but not everyone uses them I guess whay I cannot see is what you would do if the dog just decided to take off or wasn't food motivated or was intractable or a long distance way?? I do work with the occasional small dog
wait. Your telling me your a proffesional dog trainer that hasn't ever used a clicker? Or even been around clicker trained dogs?
What kind of bubble do you live in?
I find your promo videos interesting. Just not the way i'd do it. I like my clicker.
sphinx
Trust me, I too am a dog trainer that has never used a clicker and probably never will. I think it's a good training program. It does not fill my requirements. There are many professional dog trainers that do not use the clicker program. My opinion only. I started professional training in 1963 in bird-dogs and then went to personal protection. Obedience training I started before turning professional. I do not use chokes, e-collars only on my dogs as when training my customers don't want expense of purchasing an e-collar after dog is trained. As I have said many times my weapon of choice is prong collar. There is a limit what can be taught a dog in 30 days and then the intricacies of explaining the proper use of an e-collar would be tough.
I am curiuos what breeds you and curbside prophet generally train are they smaller breeds do you give group classes or have in house training for your clients?
Since you mentioned my name I feel as though it would be polite to respond. Though I'm not sure I appreciate your tact since I don't know many 'professionals' who would do the same. I am NOT a professional, do not claim to be one, and refuse to call myself one because I am NOT certified as one. Are you certified? If so with whom? You're certainly not a CPDT if you're not familiar with learning theory.
That being said I've served hundred and hundreds of dogs, of all types and breed as a volunteer at my local municipal shelter. I work closely with our on site behaviorist, and help wherever I can. But, my experience says nothing about yours, nor does yours about mine. No one should care about how I've trained my dog if I can't communicate the principles by which I've done that. So if this question was an attempt at one-ups-manship, you're not likely to succeed in a respected way. How you respond to the questions in this thread is all the evidence anyone will need to know about your professionalism. So far all I know about you is that you're easily offended by the simple question. I've found this to be a common problem with e-collar trainers, and I'm not sure why. Perhaps you could enlighten us.
Quote:
I'm not sure how this got into such a debate!
It's not a debate. There are a lot of people who don't know about e-collars (and even e-collar users who don't know what learning theory principles they're using with the e-collar) who want answers to simple questions. Seriously, if you're telling me that you use the e-collar like a clicker, shouldn't I assume you know how to use a clicker? And if your video does not illustrate the e-collar being used as a secondary reinforcer, what are we to wonder about of the e-collar?
Quote:
I cannot see is what you would do if the dog just decided to take off or wasn't food motivated or was intractable or a long distance way??
First, anyone who would allow their dog off lead in an area that was not suitable for a dog to be off-lead would keep their dog on leash. So the question you're posing is a silly one, and the answer is simple...you'd manage the situation. Plus, your e-collar is no guarantee the dog will respond. No dog responds to a cue 100% of the time, regardless of how many titles they have. They are still a dog with their own internal motivations. So if you make this claim, you'll demonstrate an understanding that I don't know of good e-collar trainers. Also, there is more than one reinforcer than food, but even non-food-motivated dogs can find food reinforcing...they have to eat eventually, right? And before you ask, yes, sometimes starving a dog is necessary to save their life. I could pose the same question of you...what do you do with a dog that doesn't respond to the buzzer? You're likely to punish the dog, or not use the collar at all. What does a clicker trainer do if the dog is afraid of the click (this does happen)? We use our voice, or a different audible sound, (deaf dogs use a thumbs up sign), as a secondary reinforcer.
I don't mean to be rude, but I do mean to be critical. Professional trainers know how to answer critical questions without being offended. But I'm not sure if promoting your product will be beneficial to you, or in answering these questions, if you don't have a basic knowledge of learning theory. Every good trainer should, otherwise you won't be able to communicate the principals by which the dog's learn. That's all people care about...that their dog's learn. They don't care about the tools being used, and most if not all, we not care to make that investment if it's not needed. Your average companion dog does not need an e-collar, or a clicker for that matter, and you should be aware of that. Just trying to be constructive...not rude.
Last edited by Curbside Prophet; 09-21-2008 at 10:53 AM.
wait. Your telling me your a professional dog trainer that hasn't ever used a clicker? Or even been around clicker trained dogs?
What kind of bubble do you live in?
I find your promo videos interesting. Just not the way i'd do it. I like my clicker.
I was a pro trainer/handler for a lot of years (old & retired), and was a member of PRTA (Professional Retriever Trainer Association). http://www.prta.net. Believe me, there are many pro trainers that do not use a clicker. Fact is there has never been a retriever earn it's FC that was trained by clicker or positive reinforcement only. And, that is for the period of almost 100 years that field trials have been held in the US. I can't think of a single retriever with it's FC that was not e-coller trained in the last 20 years or so here in the US. If someone would like to give it a go with the clicker, I would dearly love to moniter your progress.
Since you mentioned my name I feel as though it would be polite to respond. Though I'm not sure I appreciate your tact since I don't know many 'professionals' who would do the same. I am NOT a professional, do not claim to be one, and refuse to call myself one because I am NOT certified as one. Are you certified? If so with whom? You're certainly not a CPDT if you're not familiar with learning theory.
That being said I've served hundred and hundreds of dogs, of all types and breed as a volunteer at my local municipal shelter. I work closely with our on site behaviorist, and help wherever I can. But, my experience says nothing about yours, nor does yours about mine. No one should care about how I've trained my dog if I can't communicate the principles by which I've done that. So if this question was an attempt at one-ups-manship, you're not likely to succeed in a respected way. How you respond to the questions in this thread is all the evidence anyone will need to know about your professionalism. So far all I know about you is that you're easily offended by the simple question. I've found this to be a common problem with e-collar trainers, and I'm not sure why. Perhaps you could enlighten us.
It's not a debate. There are a lot of people who don't know about e-collars (and even e-collar users who don't know what learning theory principles they're using with the e-collar) who want answers to simple questions. Seriously, if you're telling me that you use the e-collar like a clicker, shouldn't I assume you know how to use a clicker? And if your video does not illustrate the e-collar being used as a secondary reinforcer, what are we to wonder about of the e-collar?
First, anyone who would allow their dog off lead in an area that was not suitable for a dog to be off-lead would keep their dog on leash. So the question you're posing is a silly one, and the answer is simple...you'd manage the situation. Plus, your e-collar is no guarantee the dog will respond. No dog responds to a cue 100% of the time, regardless of how many titles they have. They are still a dog with their own internal motivations. So if you make this claim, you'll demonstrate an understanding that I don't know of good e-collar trainers. Also, there is more than one reinforcer than food, but even non-food-motivated dogs can find food reinforcing...they have to eat eventually, right? And before you ask, yes, sometimes starving a dog is necessary to save their life. I could pose the same question of you...what do you do with a dog that doesn't respond to the buzzer? You're likely to punish the dog, or not use the collar at all. What does a clicker trainer do if the dog is afraid of the click (this does happen)? We use our voice, or a different audible sound, (deaf dogs use a thumbs up sign), as a secondary reinforcer.
I don't mean to be rude, but I do mean to be critical. Professional trainers know how to answer critical questions without being offended. But I'm not sure if promoting your product will be beneficial to you, or in answering these questions, if you don't have a basic knowledge of learning theory. Every good trainer should, otherwise you won't be able to communicate the principals by which the dog's learn. That's all people care about...that their dog's learn. They don't care about the tools being used, and most if not all, we not care to make that investment if it's not needed. Your average companion dog does not need an e-collar, or a clicker for that matter, and you should be aware of that. Just trying to be constructive...not rude.
Well stated CP, I forget what thread I read this on about the e-collar adjustment being so fine that when used you can spot the dog blinking etc when button is pushed. This sounds great, the problem I see is customers that can't see their dogs have a limp until I point it out, or a dog that is so roached it looks like a camel, or a dog so high in the back-end it looks like he is walking downhill. They love their dogs and they think the dogs are perfect. All the dog training in the world does not help if the owner cannot handle the instructions. Through the years I have met and talked to other trainers that talked down to their customers. The trainers were so full of themselves they figured whatever instructions they gave to customer, the customer would be able to handle them. The average client I get wants everything as simple as possible, they have mortgage/kids/jobs etc that they worry about. Simple is better for them.
sphinx
Trust me, I too am a dog trainer that has never used a clicker and probably never will. I think it's a good training program. It does not fill my requirements. There are many professional dog trainers that do not use the clicker program. My opinion only. I started professional training in 1963 in bird-dogs and then went to personal protection. Obedience training I started before turning professional. I do not use chokes, e-collars only on my dogs as when training my customers don't want expense of purchasing an e-collar after dog is trained. As I have said many times my weapon of choice is prong collar. There is a limit what can be taught a dog in 30 days and then the intricacies of explaining the proper use of an e-collar would be tough.
Right. Maybe I worded my post wrong.
My real shock is that the OP doesn't seem to understand how the concept works. Or how animals learn. Or much even about how her own concept works.
At least she acts that way by the way she posts.
I understand that field/protection utilizes a collar. But the idea that a pro isn't even familiar with how a clicker works is bizarre to me.
Fact is there has never been a retriever earn it's FC that was trained by clicker or positive reinforcement only. And, that is for the period of almost 100 years that field trials have been held in the US. I can't think of a single retriever with it's FC that was not e-coller trained in the last 20 years or so here in the US.
Fact? Sounds more like an old Sambation that hasn't been crossed yet.
Quote:
If someone would like to give it a go with the clicker, I would dearly love to moniter your progress.
CP,
Training a hunting/gun dog is a tad different than FC Trial competition dog. That being said I retired field trial competition in 77 so I could be wrong. In your travels see if there have been any Open Field Champions, AKC or American Field pointing/retreiving trials finished using the clicker/positive methods. I'm adding the Open as that was the top competition as I remember it
