[Lonewolfblue]

Well, got back from training tonight, and my trainer was very suprised that I got a Sheltie, lol. She said if she wasn't on vacation, she would have took her. But I decided to keep her for myself, lol. As for Betty's issues, I had Chloe in the house, and Betty and Nell needed to go outside to go potty and Chloe didn't want to go out. So I left her in the house, and was playing some ball with Nell. Then Nell heard another dog and started her normal barking, and Betty charged at her. Then she started pacing the fence and attacked Nell. It was pretty bad, and Nell just about lost an eye. This was due to 2 other dogs that normally walk by every evening, and I thought I was getting to the point where Betty was almost ignoring them, been working with her as they would walk by, treating for sitting calmly with me. This hasn't been the first time, she's just had minor occurances that I thought I would be able to handle, but she is so unpredictable. She also bit a friend of mine recently as well when another dog came around the corner, we did not know they were there. This was before getting Chloe. And with how Betty was the last time I brought her for training, the trainer asked me not to bring her anymore, that she is too unpredictable, and that there is something deep in her and she can turn on a dime. This was brought up because of the gash under Nell's eye, about 1/4 inch from her eye. And today, when I had Nell and Chloe over for class, she kept telling me I should really look to rehome her, to try and find a ranch that would take her and put her with cattle or sheep with a real job. So now I'm feeling like I'm between a rock and a hard place. I know that if I had to rehome her, I would be extremely picky as to where she would go, and would definitely have in writing everything she's done, all of her problems and how we've worked on them, and where I would feel she would excel. I wouldn't leave anything out. So, that's where I now stand. Nell has a gash under her left eye that's been looked at and I just need to keep clean, thank God it didn't need stitches as it wasn't real deep, just long and looks bad to me. So, any thoughts out there? I'm having a really hard time with this, as I have put so much effort into it. And ultimately could end up in a lawsuite if she got loose and bit someone else or attacked their dogs. Not saying it would happen because I keep tight control over her, but if she ever slipped like she did at the sheep herding class when I was getting out of the car and slipped out of her collar, it could be a problem. But at that class, she just wanted to run with the other Border Collies, and didn't have any problems. But it's just hit me really hard tonight, and been in tears.

[Pepper]

Wow, I'm sorry...I don't think you should rehome her, unless it gets really bad, has she snapped at you before?

Maybe you should call around for more behaviorists and see what they say.

Have you tried giving Betty some sort of job to do, maybe she is just frustrated, and doesn't know what to do.

[Lonewolfblue]

Originally Posted by Pepper

Wow, I'm sorry...I don't think you should rehome her, unless it gets really bad, has she snapped at you before?

Maybe you should call around for more behaviorists and see what they say.

Have you tried giving Betty some sort of job to do, maybe she is just frustrated, and doesn't know what to do.

Yes, she has bitten be before, but that was a long time ago and I had posted it on here, when she got me in the leg and sank all 4 fangs in my leg, and soaked my sock and shoe in blood. This was a couple months after I got her, but have not had any occurrances since.

As for behaviorists, the nearest is just over 3 hours away (Kathy Sdao), and is just too much money for me right now. But I did spend a bit of money on the DVD seminars for her that I wanted to see, but when I contacted her, her recommendation was to take her to the Feisty Fido classes over there. I really don't think that would help, other than wasting money, as I've been doing everything I've learned on her DVD's, as well as others, it's just a short training class where there's 1 dog per class member, and you only take your dog on one day. Each class member brings their dog on different nights. She can do so well for so long, then all of a sudden, SNAP. This last attack, I've never seen her attack like she did before, and I had to keep her separated from the others afterwards because of the way her eyes looked. Had the look of death. Very scary, but she didn't snap at me, I was able to separate them, and as soon as I yelled "Betty", she dropped to the ground like a rock, and I was able to get her collar and pull her away while Nell ran away towards the house.

But now if you looked at her, you would never think she would do such a thing. She's playing with both Nell and Chloe, wrestling, and running around with the tug rope with a dog on each end of the rope. Absolutely zero issues.

[TeddieXRuxpin]

I find it rather rude that your trainer said you need to rehome her. That has nothing to do with her at all. If anything she should want to help you figure out how to make things better for both you and Betty. I'm sorry, but that would really get to me. It does and this isn't even my dog.

Betty sounds like she does need a job, but you could also try more exercise. Jogs or runs for her if she doesn't enjoy agility or if there is a way to let her go running with the sheep every once in a while. It sounds like she enjoyed that and it gave her a chance to get outside of her box.

Duncan (my heeler) has a lot and I mean A LOT of energy and spends most of his day running out back. He and Buster get into tifts more than they should, but most of the time it's when Duncan wants to be in charge and isn't. Duncan is 3/5 in this pack and sometimes you can tell he REALLY doesn't like that. So he pushes the envelope as much as he can until some one reacts. Both Buster and Duncan have gotten scabs, gashes, and wounds. That doesn't mean it's right, but that sure isn't a reason to get rid of either of them.

Now I know from reading your posts when you joined; Betty does have/have had quite a few problems.

as I yelled "Betty", she dropped to the ground like a rock

That is no sign of an agressive dog. Don't get me wrong I know she hurt Nell, but is she was trying to really hurt her she would not have listened to you.

She obviously doesn't sound to sure of herself. More than likely very self doubting and subconscious. Nothing she does sounds like she's the dominant dog in your group. I would really hate to see you rehome her; not knowing what she really needs. What's to say the herding isn't what she needs? What will happen when it doesn't work out; can you be sure they would return her to you?

I'm not saying that to freak you out, but we have a lot of dogs dumped again/then found, or placed in a kill shelter instead of returning them to our program even though the contract they sign says they must come back to the foster.

I think she came with a lot of baggage and something is triggering her to react. I was going to write about a past dog we adopted, but lol I think more than anything that would be bad and probably wouldn't help to much.

Try not putting her into a situation she could likely react like this. (I know you said she just snaps out of the blue) But if you know around when those dogs are walking down the street don't let her outside when Nell and Chloe are out there. You're going to have to think ahead and try your best to stay away from situations that could trigger anything.

Please keep me/us updated on what you decide to do. I know it's not easy, coming from experiance with an unpredictable dog, you have to do what's best for you, Nell & Chloe, but also Betty.

[Lonewolfblue]

Originally Posted by TeddieXRuxpin

She obviously doesn't sound to sure of herself. More than likely very self doubting and subconscious. Nothing she does sounds like she's the dominant dog in your group. I would really hate to see you rehome her; not knowing what she really needs. What's to say the herding isn't what she needs? What will happen when it doesn't work out; can you be sure they would return her to you?

The only problem here is, the herding class is about 140 miles away. I have tried finding a place that's closer, but haven't found any. There's a possibility of one place that's about 1.5 hours away, but they mainly work with Australian Shepherds. With gas prices the way they are, it's just too costly for me to drive 140-150 miles each way just for a 30 minute class.

As for the trainer being rude, I don't think she really was. She is just really concerned, and knows how much work I've put into Betty's issues, and is just worried she might bite the wrong person, and would end up with possible legal issues for myself and her having to be put to sleep. And she's also said just as you have, she really needs to have a real job, on a ranch with sheep or cattle, which I'm not able to give her on a daily basis. And no, I don't plan on any bites to other dogs or people, I keep as far away as I can from those situations, but like she said, accidents can happen at any time, could slip the collar if not tight enough, or she could all of a sudden lunge when I'm not looking the other direction and I lose the leash and she runs, which I would not be able to stop her, etc. But that's just her concerns.

[Dogstar]

If I were in your shoes, I'd do three things.

First, board Chloe for a week or two and see if taking her out of the equation makes things any easier. If Betty's stressed out about her and that makes the difference, I'd see if your trainer would be interested in Chloe.

Secondly, talk to the place that mostly works with Aussies. Almost all places that do recreational herding can work with all breeds, and even if they're not AS famliiar with your breed (and especailly if you're mostly doing it as an outlet and not expecting to seriously trial) they can be VERY useful.

Lastly? I'd find a way to get Kathy Sdao to evaluate her. Even if you couldn't work with her on an ongoing basis, I think her opinion over whether or not this problem is solvable would be very useful.

[Lonewolfblue]

Originally Posted by Dogstar

Lastly? I'd find a way to get Kathy Sdao to evaluate her. Even if you couldn't work with her on an ongoing basis, I think her opinion over whether or not this problem is solvable would be very useful.

That is what I originally wanted, but her recommendation was to go to Feisty Fido. Didn't even offer a session like I asked for. Not sure if she's just too swamped at the moment, but after her response, I did what I though was the next best idea, which was getting her DVD's. But that was also back when business at work was better, and we were getting nice bonuses. But business has been slow, and we have not had a single bonus in a while, which puts a damper on all the extras I was able to do before.

But anyways, I do not plan on getting rid of her. I just have to really be on my feet with managing her. And my concern stems from her unpredictability, she can look and be at her best, then turn quicker than you can blink your eyes. And when she turned on Nell, it's not like she went from level 2 to 3 to 5 to 6 to 7 to 9 to 10. She went from 2 to 10. No signs of anything in between. And this was after working with her many, many nights and mornings when they would walk by, thought I had them other dogs licked. lol

Oh, and as for that friend that got bit when another dog came around the corner of a building, that was last week, before I even got Chloe. The only change in Betty's life was the addition of Nell about a little over 2 months before. Again, went straight to level 10 or higher.

[Pepper]

Have you tried strapping a doggy back pack on her and going for a jog, or maybe like a bike ride with her?

Since you can't get to the sheep herding place, and she is a high energy working dog, I suggest being inventive, and finding ways to drain her energy without putting her in risky situations.

Why don't you try putting a harness on her, plus a collar, and hook the two together, so if she gets out of the collar, she will be in a harness, or something along those lines so you have double the amount of protection against bites or whatever gets her going.

Try and think of intelligent games, things that have to stimulate her physically and mentally.

It may seem like their are no signs, but it is probably not that she isn't giving any, they are just very subtle, maybe, a tail twitch, or, a quick stare, something you have to be looking for to notice. It sounds like she took her frustration out on Nell because of the other dogs.

Until you can get to a behaviorist or anything, I would say just try different things and see if anything works.

[TeddieXRuxpin]

Originally Posted by Lonewolfblue

That is what I originally wanted, but her recommendation was to go to Feisty Fido. Didn't even offer a session like I asked for. Not sure if she's just too swamped at the moment, but after her response, I did what I though was the next best idea, which was getting her DVD's. But that was also back when business at work was better, and we were getting nice bonuses. But business has been slow, and we have not had a single bonus in a while, which puts a damper on all the extras I was able to do before.

But anyways, I do not plan on getting rid of her. I just have to really be on my feet with managing her. And my concern stems from her unpredictability, she can look and be at her best, then turn quicker than you can blink your eyes. And when she turned on Nell, it's not like she went from level 2 to 3 to 5 to 6 to 7 to 9 to 10. She went from 2 to 10. No signs of anything in between. And this was after working with her many, many nights and mornings when they would walk by, thought I had them other dogs licked. lol

Oh, and as for that friend that got bit when another dog came around the corner of a building, that was last week, before I even got Chloe. The only change in Betty's life was the addition of Nell about a little over 2 months before. Again, went straight to level 10 or higher.

What was Nell doing when Betty went after her? Walking away, barking, running, barking at the fence? Anything?

I meant to add before; I understand not being able to afford the gas costs etc. Until you're able to figure something out try giving her as much exercise as she can handle. It'll take a lot from you, if she's worn out that could help. A walk a day wont do to much so a bike ride, running or jogging, really working her. It wont be something like hearding, but Duncan enjoys that type of exercise too. I couldn't see him taking to herding now, might actually be terrified of them. lol

Besides working with her more and the extra exercise a close eye will have to be kept. I wish you all the luck with her and wish I had better ideas.

How often does she lash out?

[Lonewolfblue]

Originally Posted by TeddieXRuxpin

What was Nell doing when Betty went after her? Walking away, barking, running, barking at the fence? Anything?

....

How often does she lash out?

Nell was barking at the so-called "Intruders" like she normally does. I think it's more like trying to alert me something is coming close to my yard. Something I'm working on, but Border Collies are more vocal and are very good at alerting when something is approaching. She was standing more still while barking, facing the on-coming dogs, and would occasionally run back to myself, as I was out in the yard, and then back out to where they are coming and bark more. I think she does that to check to see if I'm coming to check on them with her.

As for lashing out, it's sporadic. Some days she might be fine with the dogs going by, and other days she's furious. But nothing like she was when she got Nell. She actually had Whale Eyes. I guess Nell was in the wrong place at the wrong time, as Nell was between the dogs and Betty, barking.

[zimandtakandgrrandmimi]

that last bit sounds like redirection.

Nell being in between her and the others that is.


My reactive dog has triggers. It took me three years to identify the patterns but they were there. So my first thought would be to look for what might trigger the outbursts. It can be strange things you wouldn't think of. For example one of my dog's triggers is the sound of an owl's call. If she hears that and another dog is around she'll attack without fail. If there's no dog nearby she just growls and barks and runs around with hackles raised.


I would say limit rough play as well, limit shared toys, anything valuable that might be fightworthy.

Another thing that might help is to leash her to you for a while. Make her job to be right at your heels when You are home. You get to watch her very closely to see if you can spot times where something corresponds to stressed body signals.


just some thoughts....take what may be useful to you and good luck.

[poodleholic]

As for lashing out, it's sporadic. Some days she might be fine with the dogs going by, and other days she's furious. But nothing like she was when she got Nell. She actually had Whale Eyes. I guess Nell was in the wrong place at the wrong time, as Nell was between the dogs and Betty, barking.

Barrier frustration and redirected aggression. Next time, it could be worse, and it could be you. You had a lot on your plate before adding the 3rd dog (I couldn't believe you actually did it), so you really shouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be letting the other two outside with her ever again. Each and every time she displays this unwanted behavior, the behavior is being reinforced. Management is key until you figure out what you're going to do, and how you're going to do it. Being proactive is a lot more pleasant than being reactive, especially when it comes to injury (or worse).