[Juniorverse]

Hello,
First post to this forum (and for me to resort to help online, you know I am at the end of my "leash"...)

4 month old Jack Russell Terrier (Yes, I know all about them..) named Cinco (for the 5 brown spots on her back) is being impossible to train. Wether it's housebreaking, sit or ANY other command.

She is crated at night and when she first came home, she would last about 4 hours until she would cry to go outside "to poop". This crate is the exact size she should have. Just enough room to stand, lie down, and turn around. As time has passed, she started lasting longer through the night... until I realized she wasn't lasting, she was either pooping in her crate, or pushing the poops out of the crate through the door!

I can take her outside (on a leash, to the same exact place every time) for HOURS and she will just sit, or lay down, or chew some grass, or look around. All the while, I am repeating "go poop" in a low firm voice. The MINUTE she comes inside, she relieves herself.

Thats not all...

I have been trying to teach her obedience commands. She knows "sit", "lay down", "come", and "crawl" where she will crawl across the floor on her belly. The problem is she will only do these things when SHE wants to, not when I command her to. I could dangle a steak in her face, and if she doesn't want to do it, she WONT.

If she is outside in the yard on her lead, I can call her till I lose my voice, if she isn't in the mood to "come", good luck getting her to come anywhere near me.

I have tried everything. No treats, treats, praise, no praise. I know she knows the commands, she just does them when SHE wants to and I am getting VERY frustrated.

I don't want to beat the obedience into her, and I am running out of tricks to get her to do what I want her to do, not the other way around.

Any suggestions?

[Poly]

Teaching terriers is different from teaching other breeds. You can pretty much toss out all the "standard" obedience training stuff.

First of all, though, understand that you will never get a JRT - or most any terrier, for that matter - to behave like an AKC Obedience Champion. They just won't do it. Not because they don't know the commands - they may know them very well. They just aren't motivated to perform those sorts of repetitive, simple behaviors - simple from their point of view, that is.

However, terriers are generally very smart and can be trained to do most anything. Which is why they are so popular in the advertising and entertainment fields. Terriers also do very well in agility and rally-o, so that should give you a hint in how to train them.

Keep in mind two characteristics when training terriers:
(1) it’s next to impossible to make them do something that they really don't want to do
(2) they have an extreme ability to key in on something they think is interesting and tune out everything else around them, including their owners’ commands to do those boring behaviors they've already learned

Training must be fast-paced and continuously new. Terriers hate to wait around. If you think about it, this is just the opposite of how most obedience is taught - it is slow-paced and the same thing over and over. And obedience classes are a lot of waiting around.

Terriers should be well-socialized before you try any training. Daily walks to new places are a key element. If you can go to a new place every day, that would be great. If that isn't feasible, try not to repeat the places you do go to more than once a week. Definitely don't just go to the same dog park every day.

Keep the training sessions very short - much, much shorter than the 45 minutes or so of a typical obedience training session - and be very attuned to signs of boredom or loss of attention. Change the order of instructions and your tone of voice and your body configuration when you give the commands. Mix in obedience-type training with other activities like go-to-ground or agility. Don't just teach your typical obdience instructions - teach tricks and the like at the same time. Again, this is just the opposite of standard obedience training - but terriers will just love trying to figure out what you want them to do. After all, they are problem solvers.

Don't worry much about operants (clickers/key words). Use them if you want, but don't let using them slow down your pace of training - your terrier is more motivated by figuring out the problem. If you can't do that, it's better not to use them.

Food motivation is also problematic - not because terriers don't like treats - but because most people will slow the pace when they stop to give the food reward. That's a recipe for boredom and inattention. Teach yourself to give your food rewards quickly without stopping the flow in any way.

[Dogstar]

Um... I'd like to point out that there have been many, many terrier OTCHs.

[Pepper]

What is OTCH's?

[alphadoginthehouse]

Originally Posted by Pepper

What is OTCH's?

I was wondering that too...

[RBark]

Originally Posted by alphadoginthehouse

I was wondering that too...

Obedience Trail Champion

[Criosphynx]

I used a clicker with my terrier x, because she didn't seem to understand it any other way... not all dogs are the same.


Perhaps your dog has a toy it will work for? My terrier will loose interest in food, but will do anything for a toy.


I think your dog just needs more work/time.... good luck.

[Dogstar]

An OTCH is yes, an Obedience Trial Champion.

Terriers can be AWESOME working dogs. Obedience is very much within their capabilities. They're just a little bit tougher to train than say, your average Golden Retriever. (Susan Conant has said that competitive obedience is a test of how much a dog can act like a golden retriever, so take that as you will... Terriers are still quite successful overall in the sport.) I think you've got multiple things going on here.

First of all, this is a puppy, and your expectations sound pretty high. The fact that you THINK she knows the behaviors but she doesn't reliably perform them on command to me indicates that she does not. What are you using as a reinforcer, and when she DOES perform them (as you say she is sometime), are you in a different place, using treats vs not using treats, or what?

On the crate soiling- are you REALLY sitting outside with her on a leash for hours? (If so, I commend your patience. Most of my clients give it about 25 minutes and give up!) What I would recommend doing is taking her outside for 10 minutes, and then coming back inside. Keep her on a leash. As SOON as she starts to circle and squat, scoop her up, take her back outside, and wait. She may decide that she didn't have to go. :P Thta's okay. Give her another 10 minutes and back inside. Keep her on the leash, and you can do something else while you're inside as long as you can watch her at the same time. The important thing is that as soon as she starts to circle and squat, you rush her back outside, and be prepared when she does to throw her a party. Give her a treat, run around making squeaky noises like acrazy man- whatever it takes to get her REALLY excited. (If you aren't embaressed by your behavior, you aren't being enthusiastic enough. :P)

On the recall, I would start her on long-line recalls, but there's a lot of different ways to go. There's a fantastic DVD called "Really Reliable Recall" that I'd highly recommend getting a copy of- you can get it from Dogwise.com.

HTH,
Cait

[Elana55]

what dogstar said.

And terriers are AWESOME smart dogs with a LOT of drive and energy. I never got one because I figure I am not smart enough to keep ahead of them!

[Lonewolfblue]

Check out the book called When Pigs Fly! by Jane Killion. I've just now started reading it, and she's got some really good stuff for dogs that seem near impossible to train.

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB919

[wvasko]

Don't you love it when they paint all dogs in a breed the same color. We know all German people are not smart, all Polish people are not dumb. It is the same for all the different nationality's on this earth. Yet when some people talk about different dog breeds all common sense flies out the window. In every dog breed there are dogs that are capable of mind-boggling accomplishments. In every dog breed there are the dogs who are not capable of anything worthwhile, and all the variables in between. I think what disturbs or bugs me is when somebody makes a statement about a breed, they may or maybe not even owned a dog in the breed they are talking about. My opinion only minimum of 100 dogs of one breed should be owned, started and trained by somebody who jumps in with derogatory statements.

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by wvasko

Don't you love it when they paint all dogs in a breed the same color. We know all German people are not smart, all Polish people are not dumb. It is the same for all the different nationality's on this earth. Yet when some people talk about different dog breeds all common sense flies out the window. In every dog breed there are dogs that are capable of mind-boggling accomplishments. In every dog breed there are the dogs who are not capable of anything worthwhile, and all the variables in between. I think what disturbs or bugs me is when somebody makes a statement about a breed, they may or maybe not even owned a dog in the breed they are talking about. My opinion only minimum of 100 dogs of one breed should be owned, started and trained by somebody who jumps in with derogatory statements.

well said. I agree completely....

I meet alot of "experts" in my field too.... they've owned 1 or 2 of a particular animal for a year and they know it all....

[Poly]

Since we are recommending books now on "difficult-to-train" dogs , I will recommend the following:

So Your Dog's Not Lassie: Tips for Training Difficult Dogs and Independent Breeds

Although no book covers everything, this is really the best book on the subject IMHO.

Originally Posted by Dogstar

Um... I'd like to point out that there have been many, many terrier OTCHs.

Depends what you mean by "many, many". As compared to other Groups such as Working or Sporting, the Terrier Group is very under-represented in AKC Obedience Titles with respect to the numbers registered - that is just a statistical fact.

And JRTs (AKC Name: Parson Russell Terrier) even more so.

There are reasons for that, which I hope my tips addressed.

That having been said, I happen to be very familiar with a team that did get OTCH (not a Parson Russell, though). In fact, the handler's experience in training terriers is where some of those tips come from. I just happen to consider that person as somewhat unique when it comes to training terriers and I didn't want to raise the OP's expectations.

On a personal note, in addition to training participation, I've directly handled terriers for CGC and more recently CDSP Obedience and made use of those tips. These are much less "formal" than AKC Obedience, of course, but they are closer to the type of training that the OP was interested in.

[Dogstar]

I'd also recommend "Pigs Fly: Obedience Training for Impossible Dogs" - frankly, I think it's a better book than the older "So You're Dog's Not Lassie" (which is okay.)

And terriers are better represented in obedience than toys are!

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by Dogstar

I'd also recommend "Pigs Fly: Obedience Training for Impossible Dogs" - frankly, I think it's a better book than the older "So You're Dog's Not Lassie" (which is okay.)

And terriers are better represented in obedience than toys are!

*sigh* i guess i'll have to start titling my Pomeranian to help them catch up...

[Poly]

Originally Posted by wvasko

Don't you love it when they paint all dogs in a breed the same color. We know all German people are not smart, all Polish people are not dumb. It is the same for all the different nationality's on this earth. Yet when some people talk about different dog breeds all common sense flies out the window. In every dog breed there are dogs that are capable of mind-boggling accomplishments. In every dog breed there are the dogs who are not capable of anything worthwhile, and all the variables in between. I think what disturbs or bugs me is when somebody makes a statement about a breed, they may or maybe not even owned a dog in the breed they are talking about. My opinion only minimum of 100 dogs of one breed should be owned, started and trained by somebody who jumps in with derogatory statements.

First of all, to say that in general a breed is 'difficult to train' is not a derogation of that breed. If anything, it is a criticism of those who insist on inflexibility and on applying the same training methods in all situations.

Second of all, although all generalizations have exceptions, to make a claim that there is no such thing as 'difficult-to-train' breeds - as defined above - is actually making the worst sort of over-generalization. It would actually encourage people to try to apply the same training techniques in all situations - and that is a not a recipe for success. I would suggest reading the book by Fisher and Delzio before acting on that claim.

Third, to say that "In every dog breed there are dogs that are capable of mind-boggling accomplishments" dosen't really help someone who is trying to train a dog that just isn't responding to the usual training methods and not even getting close to those "mind-boggling accomplishments".

Finally, to compare generalizations of breed characteristics to ethnic or national stereotypes is nonsense and, frankly, a bit insulting.

[Lonewolfblue]

Originally Posted by wvasko

Don't you love it when they paint all dogs in a breed the same color. We know all German people are not smart, all Polish people are not dumb. It is the same for all the different nationality's on this earth. Yet when some people talk about different dog breeds all common sense flies out the window. In every dog breed there are dogs that are capable of mind-boggling accomplishments. In every dog breed there are the dogs who are not capable of anything worthwhile, and all the variables in between. I think what disturbs or bugs me is when somebody makes a statement about a breed, they may or maybe not even owned a dog in the breed they are talking about. My opinion only minimum of 100 dogs of one breed should be owned, started and trained by somebody who jumps in with derogatory statements.

I completely agree. All dogs are trainable, but each individual dog has it's own strengths, weaknesses, and personalities. So that's why we as trainers need to be flexable, and be able to find what works and what doesn't. It's like in the book When Pigs Fly, the gal said she was in a class and had offered some of her yummy treats to another person, and she told her that it was ok because her dog was not food motivated. Well, when it came up to that gals turn, as soon as she took the leash off, the dog ran over to her bag of good treats and stuck his head in the bag. He had that bag targeted, lol. Now, if that's not food motivated, I don't know what is, lol. It's just that the other owner wasn't trying other things, and the treats she used was things like kibble and other treats that were 'not so yummy'.

[wvasko]

blue
I just get completely exasperated with the constant bombardment against breeds. I have trained 90 breeds as stated before on this forum. I actually trained 1 - JRT approximately 5 yrs ago He was not better or no worse than a lot of dogs. I have one program that I adhere to, If they have a head at least 3 legs and the tail is optional I really don't care what breed they are, I just train them. I've been bit by a number of dogs and I didn't care what breed they were and being human I might have been upset at being bit, but I can truthfully say I have never knocked a breed for it, just the individual dog that nailed me and me for being stupid enough to put my hand near their mouths I have personal likes and dislikes of breeds, some are too hairy, some too big, some too small. But in the training end it's what's in the head that counts. They are all unique in that end. I have been on forum maybe 6 mths and have never posted against a breed of dog. I don't like the wolf-hybrids because idiots are breeding an accident and people are buying them but it's not the animals I dislike, just idiots.

[Lonewolfblue]

Yup, I'm in the same boat about the bombardment against breeds. I'm a herding breed lover, but would love to start training other breeds, once I've got a little more experience under my belt. I've also had a cockapoo when I was a kid, and have lelped another person with a Malamute. I think the hardest to train was the Mal, as I wasn't expecting the type of dog he was, lol. But each dog has their own personality which we can use to our advantage.

Juniorverse, you can try some free shaping on your own if you like. Have you tried using a clicker yet? If you have, and have already charged the clicker, then here's a quick exercise to try. Pick a time to start training, and just sit there and pick out a couple behaviors and click them and treat. Don't give the dog any commands yet, just sit there and click and treat. Within a short time, he will start trying to give you behaviors on his own, guessing at what behavior is going to give him the treat. This also begins to build on his focus, as his focus will shift to you, trying to find exactly what is going to make the click and get the treat. Things like sit, down, looking at you, turning his head towards you, sitting next to you, etc. Lots of things you can click. Just get him to start using his head. If you haven't done any clicker training, you can get a clicker, and the way you charge the clicker is for 2-3 times a day for 3 or 4 days, take a hand full of treats, about 20-25 is a good amount, and just click and treat very rapidly til it's all gone. By day 3 or 4, his brain will be set to where if he hears a click, he's going to come to you for the treat, and will work to earn that click.

[wvasko]

Blue
If I could give you any advice, It would be forget the word breed and just train dogs. My opinion only is that when anybody gets caught up on breed you back yourself in a corner prejudging the dog before you start work. A quick look is somewhere there is a JRT that acts exactly like a Bassett and the Bassett that is an honorary JRT.

Poly
I'm sorry you were insulted.

Finally, to compare generalizations of breed characteristics to ethnic or national stereotypes is nonsense and, frankly, a bit insulting.

I tried to post in ways that may be easier to for some to understand.

I would suggest reading the book by Fisher and Delzio before acting on that claim.

The idea about reading books is fine, the only problem I have is I think the dogs have read the same books and are way ahead of me. I prefer just to use a different method, I just train the dog and leave the reading of books to those that need it.


Third, to say that "In every dog breed there are dogs that are capable of mind-boggling accomplishments" doesn't really help someone who is trying to train a dog that just isn't responding to the usual training methods and not even getting close to those "mind-boggling accomplishments".

I was not trying to help anybody get mind-boggling accomplishments. I was just making a statement about dogs in general. I'm watching the Olympics and there are people doing mind-boggling things and then there are the rest of us just living life. Whoops! I guess I shouldn't use the people comparison. All this forum does is put opinions out there. I'm not making any kind of claims, just putting my opinion out there also. Of course I have always said my opinion and a dollar buys you a very cheap cup of coffee.