[MyCharlie]

Anyone do it?

I'm taking a "Fido Fun and Focus" class where part of it is free shaping. What we learned so far is to just sit there with the clicker and treats and start by click/treat for any body movement. Turn of the head, ears moving, etc. Then they eventually start trying different things to figure out what they "need" to do to get the C/T.

So I've been trying with Charlie and I'm not getting anywhere. From what I've read, this is normal for "crossover" dogs (ones who have done obedience first). He just sits there staring at me, waiting for me to tell him what to do.

So for those that free shape (Shaina, do I remember you saying you have?) how long did it take for your dog to figure it out? I don't know at what point to move on to witholding the C/T for the actual movement/behavior I want. I would obviously ask these questions in class, but it got cancelled tonight (thunderstorms - yay ) so we don't have class again until next week.

Whew, long again. sorry!

[Squeeker]

I haven't done it for anything specific, but I have started playing "101 things to do with a box" (see sticky above) which helps teach dogs how to start to offer behaviours. It does take some getting used to; my DH had a bit of trouble with it at first, but just remember to keep the rewards coming quickly at the beginning to keep the dog's interest.

[MyCharlie]

I don't see a sticky for "101 things to do with a box"

[Shaina]

Kim didn't take long, but then I used free shaping on her from day one (didn't have a choice...anything else (by anything I mean like...even luring) would cause her to wilt and hide.

Webster took a little longer. I wouldn't say that he was a crossover so much as he just had...no prior training at all, haha. He just had no concept of trying to figure out how to get treats out of a person...he demanded treats and so, in his mind, he could get them. Immediately.


I'm not sure what you mean by "I don't know at what point to move on to witholding the C/T for the actual movement/behavior I want." After "charging" the clicker (basically clicking and treating in rapid succession for a bit to teach that click = treat...making it a secondary reinforcer, essentially), I *only* C/T'd for behaviors I wanted. The idea is to choose those behaviors in small steps to bring the dog closer and closer to the result you are looking for...i.e. shaping the behavior.

The best way I can explain this is by example. I'll use the cliche "sit"...at first you are going to be clicking the *instant* those hindquarters start to drop. You're not asking for a full sit...just the barest beginnings of a sit. As the dog's likelihood of dropping his/her hindquarters increases, you slowly up the ante...closer and closer to the ground...until the dog is sitting. Once the dog is reliably sitting, you can increase duration...the dog now has to sit and hold it for say...1 second, then 2, then 3...all to earn that click and the reward it represents. Somewhere in there you add the cue word "sit"...where is a matter of controversy, but in traditional "clicker" training, it would be once the desired behavior (sitting) is being offered reliably.

For a behavior as simple as sit, all those steps seem rather silly and inefficient, but apply the same method to, say...having your dog close the door to the room on command and turn off the lights because you're ready for bed and lazy () and you start to see where it comes in handy.

Depending on the dog, and I think this is your real question (funny how it took me what, four paragraphs to get here? ), how long it it takes to really pick up that you are actually trying to tell him what you want, and for him to purposefully try different things to see what it is that will earn him that reward, varies. Some dogs will understand the game after learning only a behavior or two that way...some will take longer. Once that *does* click (pun intended ), you can teach your dog all kinds of stuff that would be really difficult using traditional luring or physical manipulation (see above example). I won't say it's the be-all-end-all of training...every technique short of harming your dog likely has some merit and can teach you something, but this really opens a lot of doors.

I probably just like...over-answered your question to an absurd degree, but hopefully this helps a bit...

[MyCharlie]

You did not overanswer my dear!! LOL

What I meant by how long to wait before witholding the CT was, last week the trainer went over this with us to first charge the clicker (obviously, ct, ct, ct). Then she wanted us to ct for ANY movement - to teach the dog that movements = ct. **Here is where I'm stuck** Then once they get it, move on to witholding ct until they do the action you want.

Sooo I don't know when to know that he gets it, if that makes sense? He's such a dork (in that stupid sled dog sense of the word) that I don't know if I start waiting now for the behavior I want (which I don't know what that is either - I'll take what I can get at this point) if he'll get it. Get it?

Okay now I have confused myself along with the rest of us.

[TooneyDogs]

Another form of free shaping is taking ANY behavior the dog offers and then modifying/shaping that behavior into something else. For example: dog wipes his muzzle (by accident)....CT...and with a little work you can convert that into, "Hide your face".

[MyCharlie]

That's actually what I was hoping for to start with, Tooney, except the only behaviors he has done (while we are sitting there) is lick his lips and turn his ears to listen to things. So I kept ct'ing the lip licking, but then he didn't do it at home. So all I gathered from that is that he is uncomfortable at class .

[Shaina]

Haha, okay...these are just my thoughts (<--disclaimer)

Originally Posted by MyCharlie

He's such a dork (in that stupid sled dog sense of the word) that I don't know if I start waiting now for the behavior I want (which I don't know what that is either - I'll take what I can get at this point) if he'll get it. Get it?

For training sessions when I'm trying to teach new stuff, I say "Ready?" when we begin and "All Done!" when we end the session. I didn't really start doing this consciously, but once I realized I was doing it and started giving start/end cues consistently, it really helped me and the dog focus. Some people use Work/Play, or some other variant...whatever works.

One thing to be careful with is to really just use that for organized training sessions...still practice known behaviors outside of that cue word bracket, since you don't want to have a dog running toward a road and have to say "Work!" before recalling him That's probably really obvious, but just wanted to point it out.

Originally Posted by MyCharlie

What I meant by how long to wait before witholding the CT was, last week the trainer went over this with us to first charge the clicker (obviously, ct, ct, ct). Then she wanted us to ct for ANY movement - to teach the dog that movements = ct. **Here is where I'm stuck** Then once they get it, move on to witholding ct until they do the action you want.

Um...I would just pick something easy you want your dog to do and start there. Personally, I think just randomly rewarding like that would confuse the heck out of my dogs. On the other hand...it might work for you, I don't know...maybe I'm just applying human logic and not seeing things "from the dog's perspective", haha. I would probably do something like...teach my dog to target my hand, or something like that, which is simple and has multiple potential applications in training anyway.

The nice thing about clicker training is you can't really screw your dog up, especially if you don't intro the cue til later. You can delay success by poor timing, making steps too big, etc., but with patience you can get there, learn from it, and be faster the next time. So don't stress out, just give it a shot

EDIT: Took me too long to post...but what you guys were talking about it a great idea...you might just want to wait a really long time at first, but that will be the case whether you free shape or shape with a specific goal in mind from the getgo.

[MyCharlie]

Originally Posted by Shaina

Personally, I think just randomly rewarding like that would confuse the heck out of my dogs.

That's exactly what I was thinking, but figured she knew what she was talking about LOL!

I would probably do something like...teach my dog to target my hand, or something like that, which is simple and has multiple potential applications in training anyway.

He actually already targets; we do that for agility.

So don't stress out, just give it a shot

I'll keep working at it. Thank you so so much! I think I'll start just being patient and waiting for some sort of movement that I can focus on and work with and go from there. And use the "ready" and "all done" or some sort of variation for our sit down and work time. That's a great idea.

And after all, it's not like I'm training him to be in the movies or anything, just trying to keep life fun and stimulating for him!

[Squeeker]

I don't see a sticky for "101 things to do with a box"

Haha, so there isn't! Oops! Here's a link...

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/167