[allison]

HI all, I kind of posted this question in general, but I should have done it here:

The trainer I interviewed uses a remote collar to train. Has anyone ever had any experience with this? I met his dog and she is wonderful and wins all kinds of awards, of course she doesn't wear the remote collar anymore, but she was trained with it.

Thanks

[TooneyDogs]

Its just a tool. Like all the other dog training tools they depend entirely on how good your timing is and how well you can read and interpret your dogs responses and adjust the training to varying situations.

[wvasko]

Not for amateur use. A few trained dogs under the belt 1st, this is necessary to get the timing/reading/interpreting experience to train properly with an e-collar. I personally think there have been as many dogs ruined as helped with e-collars. Also they are used for shortcuts instead of laying the proper groundwork/training program needed, some just jump in with an e-collar to save time. In bird dog training we use to call the e-collar trainers(there weren't that many though)week end warriors. They would try to get all work done on a week-end instead of working through the week with a more consistent training program. In the process there were a few dogs that never hunted again because of idiots. There is one simple rule, you have to be smarter than the e-collar and the dog before you use one.

[allison]

so the trainer... he comes to the home for a lesson, then you practice during the week and attend his park class once a week. He will come back to the home whenever you want to help.

wvasko, will you tell me what your idea of a more consistent training program would be? I really want to get all the info I can.

Thanks

[Criosphynx]

what behaviors did the trainer want to use the collar with on your dog?

I agree, they are a great tool, but can ruin a dog in the wrong hands.

[allison]

He said basic commands... sit, stay, downstay, heel, etc. He said after afew weeks I wouldn;t need the collar anymore.

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by allison

He said basic commands... sit, stay, downstay, heel, etc. He said after afew weeks I wouldn;t need the collar anymore.

i dunno.... my impression is that, for the average owner, the collar is only used on advanced stuff. Basic commands are easy to train with treats and time. The trainer might just be trying to get quick results to impress people.

Also i don't think you would nessecarily "not need the collar" anymore for sure. I think that depends on the dog.

I own a e collar. I used it on my "sneaky" dog, who would only display behaviors when i wasn't "watching" so it was impossible to give corrections.

It worked GREAT and after only two uses (literally) my problem was solved. So it does work, and works fast.

[allison]

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

i dunno.... my impression is that, for the average owner, the collar is only used on advanced stuff. Basic commands are easy to train with treats and time. The trainer might just be trying to get quick results to impress people.

Also i don't think you would nessecarily "not need the collar" anymore for sure. I think that depends on the dog.

I own a e collar. I used it on my "sneaky" dog, who would only display behaviors when i wasn't "watching" so it was impossible to give corrections.

It worked GREAT and after only two uses (literally) my problem was solved. So it does work, and works fast.

So how did you catch him in the act?

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by allison

So how did you catch him in the act?

He wanted to eat our pet chickens. I'd hear a "bagaaah!" and then he's come running with feathers on his face. ONLY if i wasn't there is was very frustrating. BTW he wasn't hurting them, just severly scaring them.

I could barely see him from inside the house tho, so i could see when to STIM him.

I used the same method to get him to leave the tortoise alone.

But, just as a note, i could have stopped him using other methods than the collar. I just felt "instant" results were imperitive before he did hurt another animal.

[allison]

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

He wanted to eat our pet chickens. I'd hear a "bagaaah!" and then he's come running with feathers on his face. ONLY if i wasn't there is was very frustrating. BTW he wasn't hurting them, just severly scaring them.

I could barely see him from inside the house tho, so i could see when to STIM him.

I used the same method to get him to leave the tortoise alone.

But, just as a note, i could have stopped him using other methods than the collar. I just felt "instant" results were imperitive before he did hurt another animal.

Yes... that seems to be the point huh? E-Collars are for behaviors that can't be fixed with other methods?

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by allison

Yes... that seems to be the point huh? E-Collars are for behaviors that can't be fixed with other methods?

At least thats my feeling on it, unless say your teaching advanced stuff like bitework and field training.

But yes, i don't feel the average person needs a collar for the average dog, just to get him to sit.

Have you thought about clickertraining?

[wvasko]

Allison
What ever type of dog training you embark on, it's not proper to let dog sit on M.T.W.T.F. and then just work the dog on Saturday and Sunday. When I was in Bird Dog competition(Field Trials) I worked construction also (before I turned Pro) during the summer I would get home after work in Chicago (5:15)and load dogs and drive into Wisconsin (100 miles) Tuesday and Thursdays run my dogs and get back home 11:00. Then on week-ends back out to Wisconsin to run dogs. That was a lot of miles etc and time but I loved it. Now whether it's Obed, Shutzhund, Agility, Service dogs or just home obedience for your personal dog. A regular consistent working schedule with a daily journal to write about your workouts is important. I still do this while working my clients dogs have a daily entry for each dog worked on my computer. You would think after 45 years of training I would not have to resort to that type of record keeping. At least now I can blame it on Dementia, gives me a great excuse. When I was younger I would say I wasn't the brightest bulb in the box.

[allison]

lol wvasko... journaling is right up my Type A personality alley.

I am so willing to work with Ozzy everyday if need be. I just want to make sure I do it correctly, safely, and enjoyably! (Maybe that's asking too much?)lol

I think I would rather use a form of non treat, postitive reenforcement method. Is there a way to train dogs without using a leash?

Ozzy will come, sit, stay for me when it's me and him in the house alone. Take him outside and often he will not come for me if distracted by birds, bugs, ... wind...lol. He does not know heel at all! I know that is most likely trained with a leash. I don't want to lure him with treats though.

I am so green at this. I had dogs growing up but I was never involved in the training, I just knew I loved them, they loved me, I played with them, etc.
I'm willing to learn though. Ozzy is SUPER good, I just want him to know I'm in charge all of the time, not just some of the time

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by allison

lol wvasko... journaling is right up my Type A personality alley.

I am so willing to work with Ozzy everyday if need be. I just want to make sure I do it correctly, safely, and enjoyably! (Maybe that's asking too much?)lol

I think I would rather use a form of non treat, postitive reenforcement method. Is there a way to train dogs without using a leash?

Ozzy will come, sit, stay for me when it's me and him in the house alone. Take him outside and often he will not come for me if distracted by birds, bugs, ... wind...lol. He does not know heel at all! I know that is most likely trained with a leash. I don't want to lure him with treats though.

I am so green at this. I had dogs growing up but I was never involved in the training, I just knew I loved them, they loved me, I played with them, etc.
I'm willing to learn though. Ozzy is SUPER good, I just want him to know I'm in charge all of the time, not just some of the time

what do you plan on using as reinforcement then? Toy can work with some dogs, but you really should use food for most.

You wont be stuck using food forever if thats your concern. Its just used to teach the dog the command.
You don't need the food, once its learned.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by allison

lol wvasko... journaling is right up my Type A personality alley.

I am so willing to work with Ozzy everyday if need be. I just want to make sure I do it correctly, safely, and enjoyably! (Maybe that's asking too much?)lol

I think I would rather use a form of non treat, postitive reenforcement method. Is there a way to train dogs without using a leash?

Ozzy will come, sit, stay for me when it's me and him in the house alone. Take him outside and often he will not come for me if distracted by birds, bugs, ... wind...lol. He does not know heel at all! I know that is most likely trained with a leash. I don't want to lure him with treats though.

I am so green at this. I had dogs growing up but I was never involved in the training, I just knew I loved them, they loved me, I played with them, etc.
I'm willing to learn though. Ozzy is SUPER good, I just want him to know I'm in charge all of the time, not just some of the time

I knew the Journal thing was great many years ago. I was on a Winter training trip and I turned a GSP loose and in 26 minutes he stopped to dump or mark bushes 31 times. 2 months later he placed #2 in his 1st trial and won his 2nd trial. Now I also do not like food reward system as I do not want to carry a 50 lb sack of dog biscuits around. I prefer stroking/petting and kind words when dogs performs properly. But I am a prong collar negative type trainer. I do not advise people or explain this dog work, because this type of training can be very tough on some dogs. Just stay on forum and there will be good advice that you can use on the Ozzy dog.

[ara28]

From my understanding one of the key points to positive reinforcement training is to first find out what motivates the dog. It can be food, toys, verbal praise, etc... My dog is a little piggy so food is definately his motivator and we used treats a lot in the beginning (that's why you use small ones) but now I use them occasionally. It was funny though because the other day I was getting him to stand and the signal we use for that is extending my hand straight out in front of me and he tried to get a non exsistent treat out of my hand. lol, i thought it was funny.

[allison]

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

what do you plan on using as reinforcement then? Toy can work with some dogs, but you really should use food for most.

You wont be stuck using food forever if thats your concern. Its just used to teach the dog the command.
You don't need the food, once its learned.

Yeah, I am kind of nervous about that, plus like wvasko said, I don;t want to carry food around all the time.

Originally Posted by ara28

From my understanding one of the key points to positive reinforcement training is to first find out what motivates the dog. It can be food, toys, verbal praise, etc... My dog is a little piggy so food is definately his motivator and we used treats a lot in the beginning (that's why you use small ones) but now I use them occasionally. It was funny though because the other day I was getting him to stand and the signal we use for that is extending my hand straight out in front of me and he tried to get a non exsistent treat out of my hand. lol, i thought it was funny.

Ozzy always wants pets and snuggles, so I think the positive reinforcement can be that?

[ara28]

Originally Posted by allison

Yeah, I am kind of nervous about that, plus like wvasko said, I don;t want to carry food around all the time.



Ozzy always wants pets and snuggles, so I think the positive reinforcement can be that?

Pets and snuggles might work, maybe you should just try all the things he likes (for a reward) and see what he responds to best. My dog loves being pet and what not too, but food worked best for him. I thought that I was going to have to carry food around all the time too and I was thinking man what a pain in the ass, but I got one of those treat pouch things so if we're going on walks I take that with me to work on stuff outside with distractions. And when we are doing training sessions at home or at our lessons then I have treats with me, but if we're just lounging around and I ask him to sit or down or something if he does it than he gets a "good boy!" and a scratchin'. From my experience, treats are only used while the dog is learning the behavior and learning to associate the command with the behavior. after that, treats aren't really necessary.

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by allison

Yeah, I am kind of nervous about that, plus like wvasko said, I don;t want to carry food around all the time.



Ozzy always wants pets and snuggles, so I think the positive reinforcement can be that?

That depends. If your dog had a choice, would it run to you, or run to food?

Lets say your trying to call the dog away from the fence, another dog on the otherside (the ultimate distraction)

I can tell you an untrained dog will choose sniffing through the fence over coming to you for praise. BUT he may leave the fence for food.

Its all about value. Dogs put value on things. My dogs love praise and i can tell you that they will work for ONLY praise now if i need them too. But using treats ocasionally helps strenghten the behavior.

But that said, they wouldn't accept praise alone as a reinforcer while i was training a behavior. I used food or toys and praise at the same time and then eventually removed the food/toys.

You will not have to carry treats with you forever.


I started off using aversive style training. I believe in it alot, for some dogs. But personally i found my dogs to be too soft for me to use it on them and get consistant resultsand not hurt the dog emotionally. Its VERY easy to overcorrect a dog and damage its trust in you. Its not a style for novices to use.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

That depends. If your dog had a choice, would it run to you, or run to food?

Lets say your trying to call the dog away from the fence, another dog on the otherside (the ultimate distraction)

I can tell you an untrained dog will choose sniffing through the fence over coming to you for praise. BUT he may leave the fence for food.

Its all about value. Dogs put value on things. My dogs love praise and i can tell you that they will work for ONLY praise now if i need them too. But using treats ocasionally helps strenghten the behavior.

But that said, they wouldn't accept praise alone as a reinforcer while i was training a behavior. I used food or toys and praise at the same time and then eventually removed the food/toys.

You will not have to carry treats with you forever.


I started off using aversive style training. I believe in it alot, for some dogs. But personally i found my dogs to be too soft for me to use it on them and get consistant resultsand not hurt the dog emotionally. Its VERY easy to overcorrect a dog and damage its trust in you. Its not a style for novices to use.

Exactly aversive training is not for some amateurs. Some do not have the proper skills to read their dogs.

Lets say your trying to call the dog away from the fence, another dog on the otherside (the ultimate distraction)

I can tell you an untrained dog will choose sniffing through the fence over coming to you for praise. BUT he may leave the fence for food.

I see nothing wrong with the above statement. I have no problems at all with food reinforcement, I just think that in a lot of cases it's overdone. My opinion only.