[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by wvasko

Now I also do not like food reward system as I do not want to carry a 50 lb sack of dog biscuits around.

Originally Posted by allison

Yeah, I am kind of nervous about that, plus like wvasko said, I don;t want to carry food around all the time.

Ozzy always wants pets and snuggles, so I think the positive reinforcement can be that?

Don't listen to wvasko, he's admittedly only a 30% positive trainer, so he's the adjective of jerk and puke methods.

Some dogs respond to touch, however most trainers will tell you it does not have the classical conditioning power that food does. Physical praise does work well to Premack and sustain behaviors.

Originally Posted by allison

I think I would rather use a form of non treat, postitive reenforcement method. Is there a way to train dogs without using a leash?

I'm not sure why you're apprehensive with using food rewards. You feed your dog 2 to 3 times a day, why waste all those reinforcers when you could use them during training? Food just happens to be an almost universal reinforcer. BTW, no good trainer I know uses food to reinforce behaviors the dog already knows. Food is only used to teach new behaviors and phased out as you develop your criteria. Where people overuse food reinforcers is when they don't have a good understanding of how to develop their criteria. This is a training issue, not a methodology issue. The same can be said of jerk and puke methods. If you don't know how to develop your criteria, you're always going to rely on jerking your dog for compliance.

BTW, there are only two ways to *reinforce* behavior with an e-collar (I'm not talking about how it can be used as a secondary reinforcer); with a timely, big zap, to say boundary proof a dog from snakes (positive punishment); with repetitive zaps, until the dog complies with a cued behavior (negative reinforcement). I don't know any dogs that would find a zap rewarding (positive reinforcement), or who would find having the collar removed punishing (negative punishment). So, with an e-collar, behaviors like sit, down, etc, will require you to zap the dog as the reinforcement.

[allison]

Yeah, the more I think about it the more the e-collar doesn't sound right for Ozzy. It's me who need to learn exactly what I am doing here... which I have no clue! lol.

I don't know why I am adverse to food training. I have no answer for that CP... that's stupid, I know.

I've contacted another trainer for an interview. Talk about shopping around!

[Curbside Prophet]

No harm in shopping around. Here's two sites to help you browse around.

http://apdt.com/po/ts/default.aspx

http://ccpdt.org/rstr/index.html

[allison]

Originally Posted by curbside prophet

no harm in shopping around. Here's two sites to help you browse around.

http://apdt.com/po/ts/default.aspx

http://ccpdt.org/rstr/index.html

thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[wvasko]

Whoa CP, Thank you for the flame.

Exactly aversive training is not for some amateurs. Some do not have the proper skills to read their dogs.

Lets say your trying to call the dog away from the fence, another dog on the otherside (the ultimate distraction)
I can tell you an untrained dog will choose sniffing through the fence over coming to you for praise. BUT he may leave the fence for food.

I see nothing wrong with the above statement. I have no problems at all with food reinforcement, I just think that in a lot of cases it's overdone. My opinion only.

As you can see from the above post that I made. I never tell anybody to use the jerk and puke methods. I also did not say not to use food methods, I will repeat. I don't use them as much as they are pushed as the cure-all for all problems. I, when training have used food for certain problems if I thought it was appropriate. Now that being said I will also add to the mix if a trainer does not have the skills to jerk dog without making a dog puke he should not be allowed near any dog. In 45 years of work I, myself have never made a dog puke. I'm sure there are some idiots out there that have and this is why I do not push prong collar or e-collar use for amateurs. I guess when you tell people not to listen to me, I must be giving some very bad advice or opinions on the forum. I actually thought I had been putting the negative disclaimer on all my posts and did not need more help. If (Don't listen to wvasko, he's admittedly only a 30% positive trainer, so he's the adjective of jerk and puke methods.) was not a flame then I apologize for jumping the gun.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by wvasko

If (Don't listen to wvasko, he's admittedly only a 30% positive trainer, so he's the adjective of jerk and puke methods.) was not a flame then I apologize for jumping the gun.

Nope, not a flame; more like a brotherly joke. That's what the was for. Plus, we've always said there was hope for you. So what do you say...35% this week?

[wvasko]

Well that makes me feel better, I was just worried about a newbie reading the post and deciding I had nothing useful to contribute. Aside from the big grin I use occasionally, I don't keep track of the other icons used as much as I should. Now I had somehow got nudged up into the 33% range because of an extremely easy going, bright Mastiff. Well I have dropped back to 30% because of a terrible Rat Terrier just finished. Oh well, easy come, easy go.

[allison]

Originally Posted by wvasko

Well that makes me feel better, I was just worried about a newbie reading the post and deciding I had nothing useful to contribute. Aside from the big grin I use occasionally, I don't keep track of the other icons used as much as I should. Now I had somehow got nudged up into the 33% range because of an extremely easy going, bright Mastiff. Well I have dropped back to 30% because of a terrible Rat Terrier just finished. Oh well, easy come, easy go.

Don't worry wvasko, this newbie forms her own opinions based on everything that is posted.... plus LOOK! It says I'm a senior member now! LOL!!!!

Thanks everyone for the help. I am currently shopping around some more trainers... I will keep you posted!

What are some questions I should ask them when they come over.. I always seem to forget to ask what I want to ask and then when they leave I'm like... oh fudge! I forgot to ask that!


(PS. I don't really say oh "fudge"! )

[wvasko]

Allison
2 things, references and ask if they consider themselves balanced dog trainers. A good tradesman knows what dogs need positive work and what dogs need negative work and the proper amounts to use on each dog.

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by wvasko

Allison
2 things, references and ask if they consider themselves balanced dog trainers. A good tradesman knows what dogs need positive work and what dogs need negative work and the proper amounts to use on each dog.

amen!


Allison, you don't have to pick one way over another. I personally have taken different techniques from different trainers/types of training.

Its whatever works for you and your dog. Listen to whatever trainer you pick, but just always remember that there are other ways to get the same result.

Good luck

[allison]

Thanks everyone!

By the way, has anyone ever gone to the petsmart or petco training?

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by allison

Thanks everyone!

By the way, has anyone ever gone to the petsmart or petco training?

Not with my dogs, BUT i worked for both of those companies for a number of years, so i've watched hundreds of classes.

The trainer quality varies ALOT. Also they only use PR, but do so poorly. Your dog pulls? Buy a gentle leader. You dog chews on stuff? Spray bitter apple on it. You dog poops inthe house? Puppy pads. Everything they do is an attempt to sell you more products and not to teach you how to train your dog not to Pull, chew, or poop inside.

the trainers get paid based on how many people are in a class. I've seen them sell classes because the dog has one simple easy to fix issue and they convince the owner their dog is a demon.

HONESTLY if you just go and watch a class you will not be impressed. I'd suggest a simple book on training over their classes. The stuff they do actually teach you is so basic its amazing people pay money for it.

That said, if your main goal is to socialize your dog, it is useful for that. But other than that, save your $150 and spend $15 on a book.


if you have free time, go and watch a class. You can see the techniques the trainers use...for free lol

[tommy3492]

i think shock collars are sick, it like saying " Hey stop Being a Dog"!!!!! it for the lazy and cruel, put it on your neck and bark it hurts like hell... dogs not your slave

[allison]

I actually did put it on my neck and it didn't hurt at all.

But that's all moot anyway... I'm not doing it. It's just not right for me and my dog.

[parvus]

Originally Posted by allison

I actually did put it on my neck and it didn't hurt at all.

But that's all moot anyway... I'm not doing it. It's just not right for me and my dog.

Imagine yourself not knowing that you had the collar on you and suddenly, zap! I guess you would get scared and surprised.

[ara28]

It depends on the trainer you get at petsmart. My dog and I started taking lessons at petsmart but I waited until I interviewed all the trainers and found one that I liked. Now, we just do private lessons outside of petsmart and I am very pleased with her knowledge. Both my dog and I have learned a lot.

[allison]

thanks ara!