[4dogs3cats]

My brothers chi just pooped in the house. He took him, shoved his face in it, yelled NO, BAD DOG and locked him outside. We got into a big argument when I told him he was wrong. I told him that his other dog got scared when the chi pooped in the house yesterday and he said, "Because he saw that something wasnt right, he should be scared. Would you be scared if you saw a dead body in the living room?" I tried to explain to him that its different, and he went off saying my dogs chew my furniture and aren't potty trained. He said he can lock his dog inside with no doggy door and he wont have an accident because he knows better. My dogs might have an accident, because they dont know better. He argued that you cant train a dog on 100% positive reinforcement. I told him unless you catch the dog in the act, they have NO IDEA what you are yelling at them for. They think they get yelled at when there is poop in the house, and dont put 2 and 2 together. He claims they do. He refuses to believe me. Sigh... oh well. Agree to disagree on this one I suppose. My dogs love me, and come to me. His dogs love him and his gf too, but I dont want my dogs to be SCARED of me if they have an accident, as long as I know it was an ACCIDENT. They dont praise their dog for going outside. They YELL at him for going inside. Oh well. I guess I am the only one who thinks this is the wrong way to train a dog.. Anyone else?

[Durbkat]

You should have said "look at my dogs, I use only positive reenforcment and my dogs don't have accidents and are obedient. My dogs listen because they respect me, not because they fear me." I hate people who think that a dog has to fear you to be obedient.

[4dogs3cats]

I know I agree. I dont like it. My dogs dont have accidents, but they have access to a doggy door. If they didnt, they probably would have accidents, because of the change. I know what I am talking about. I said to him, "You haven't shown RJ what you WANT him to do. That teaches dogs to hide. They think, if he sees poop, I get yelled at.....so....I'll make sure he doesn't see poop. And they go in the corner." Oh well. I said that we will have to agree to disagree and he said, "yeah cuz you know ur wrong." I know I am right. I said yes your way WILL work. But it will also teach your dog to be afraid of you. And he said, he should be. I said no, he should want to obey you, he should want to PLEASE you. When your dog poops in the house and then 5 minutes later you bring the dog to the poop and stick his nose in it and yell at him, all you are doing is satisfying YOUR frusteration, you arent teaching him ANYTHING. he says he will only believe me if I show him that is a PROVEN fact. Like facts, from someone with a PhD or something. Ugh it just bugs me. My brother is such a smart guy, but when it comes to dogs... its just all wrong. Are they gonna stick their kids face in it when their kid has an accident?

[Elana55]

Jen.. Do you have a copy of the book, "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson? I woud go and get that book (the new second edition) and have him read pages 98-101. If you could get him to read the whole darn book that would be GREAT, but if you cannot, those pages would show him why what he is doing just terrifies the dog.

You might also ask him if, when he has kids, if he is going to rub their noses in a pooed in diaper and then set them on the toilet and shut them in the bathroom....

I have more I could say, but it would not be acceptable under the Dog forum Posting Policies...

[shewolf4]

You might also ask him if, when he has kids, if he is going to rub their noses in a pooed in diaper and then set them on the toilet and shut them in the bathroom....

That was exactly my thought. Shoving the dogs nose into poop is such a old standard and yet sooo ugly and ineffective. Let the poor pup out more, keep praising for "job well done" and frankly making sure that they dont roam the house until they understand not to poop in the house would help allot. If you can "make " your brother read up some chapters, that would be great, allot of times people wont- door's shut. Maybe a little bet if you're up to it, to let you potty train and help train the pup in exchange for some labor. Let him watch you work with the pup, let him see that there is another way and let him think about it before he comes around on his own. Trying to force something, usually just gets people angry and keeps the door shut

[4dogs3cats]

Thanks for the suggestion Elana55... Question though. Is she "Dr."? My brother says he won't believe random peoples theories. I said it has been proven time and time again that all he is doing is scaring the dog. He doesnt believe me. Well he thinks that its good for the dog to fear what will happen if he goes in the house. I put it this way, "Your dog is a one year old chihuahua. He wants to PLEASE you. He loves you and your gf. Don't you think he would stop going in the house if he knew it didn't please you. He knows you get mad when you find poop in the house. He doesnt put 2 and 2 together that where he needs to go is outside. Maybe he is thinking, oh wow I get yelled at when there is poop in the bathroom, I better go behind the couch now. If you constantly PRAISED him and gave him the love and affection he has been seeking when he goes OUTSIDE and IGNORE him and clean it quietly when he goes INSIDE- your problem would be gone in a week." His gf's reply was, "I work 10 hours a day I dont have time to tell him good job every time hes goes outside." I didnt say this cuz I didnt want to get into this with her, cuz when me and her argue it gets ugly cuz we're girls lol, but I wanted to say, "Than either crate him when you're gone, or you don't have time for a dog if you can't cimply potty train him."

The part that irked me was when he commented on my dogs. My dogs are the happiest dogs I have EVER met. His lab mix is skittish and hides under tables if you raise your voice, not even at him. My brother claims this is bc he came from the pound at 3 months and he can't fix that. I said yes you can. It will take work, but you don't work with your dogs, you just yell at them when they do something wrong and expect them to know what you WANT from them without actually showing them. Thats why they get so scared when you get mad. They dont KNOW what they did wrong." But he was telling me his dogs dont chew furniture. I said, A. Chance was mistreated and very sick as a puppy which caused him some issues of his own. B. GSD's can be known for chewing. and C. My dogs are HAPPY. Not scared. I can yell at SO and my dogs wont cower and hide. That tells me something.

[tigress]

Originally Posted by Elana55

Jen.. Do you have a copy of the book, "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson? I woud go and get that book (the new second edition) and have him read pages 98-101. If you could get him to read the whole darn book that would be GREAT, but if you cannot, those pages would show him why what he is doing just terrifies the dog.

I doubt that would change his mind. Sounds like he has alreayd made up his mind that people who preach positive reinforcement are full of BS so he'd probably just chalk up that book to the same thing.

Kinda like my mom who told me I need to shove my dog's nose in poop. She goes, I know it's all trendy these days to do just positive reinforcement but you need to do it. I've done it with all my dogs and htye've all housetrained in a month. So, same thing, she just figures all this stuff is some trend and thinks it's total bull. Now, if some one who had model dogs who had lots of experience and had success each time with the method were arguing with her, she might consider it. I might even be able to change her mind now that Aurora is housetrained. But you'll never change your brother's mind right now when your dog isn't (Because he already has decided it's bull and in his mind the fact that your dogs are not succesful is just proof).

Sometimes you just gotta learn to pick your battles.

[Ella'sMom]

It would break my heart if Ella was afraid of me after having an accident in the house. I never yell at her or get mad at her about it. She does know I am disappointed because she acts all nervous and anxious - but I never scold her. I try to speak firmly etc. My parents used to use that method of "rubbing the dogs face in it" and I always thought that was awful. No dog poops on the floor out of spite. It's either poor training or the dog couldn't hold it anymore.

[4dogs3cats]

Originally Posted by tigress

I doubt that would change his mind. Sounds like he has alreayd made up his mind that people who preach positive reinforcement are full of BS so he'd probably just chalk up that book to the same thing.

Kinda like my mom who told me I need to shove my dog's nose in poop. She goes, I know it's all trendy these days to do just positive reinforcement but you need to do it. I've done it with all my dogs and htye've all housetrained in a month. So, same thing, she just figures all this stuff is some trend and thinks it's total bull. Now, if some one who had model dogs who had lots of experience and had success each time with the method were arguing with her, she might consider it. I might even be able to change her mind now that Aurora is housetrained. But you'll never change your brother's mind right now when your dog isn't (Because he already has decided it's bull and in his mind the fact that your dogs are not succesful is just proof).

Sometimes you just gotta learn to pick your battles.

Oh my dogs are potty trained. HE thinks they arent but they are. They may have accidents if I took the doggy door out, but who wouldnt if you threw them off schedule. Like if one day you came home from work and all the bathroom doors were locked. You'd be like.. OH NO!

Originally Posted by Ella'sMom

It would break my heart if Ella was afraid of me after having an accident in the house. I never yell at her or get mad at her about it. She does know I am disappointed because she acts all nervous and anxious - but I never scold her. I try to speak firmly etc. My parents used to use that method of "rubbing the dogs face in it" and I always thought that was awful. No dog poops on the floor out of spite. It's either poor training or the dog couldn't hold it anymore.

EXACTLY! The poor dog doesnt know WHAT they want. He gets the most attention when he poops in the house. Its negative attention, but its attention. When he goes outside, NOTHING. Oh sure sometimes they throw in a good boy RJ, but when my dogs go outside, to this DAY, I act like they pooped a pile of pure gold! Its the way I can ensure they want to keep going outside to please me. My dogs are coming around now that I work with them more. Oh their lab mix has also bitten people. He almost bit my friend in the face when he was sitting on her lap. He bit my dads friend. And he snarls and shows his teeth to other dogs. Do their dogs sound well rounded to you?

[French Ring]

Originally Posted by 4dogs3cats

My brother says he won't believe random peoples theories. I said it has been proven time and time again that all he is doing is scaring the dog. He doesnt believe me. Well he thinks that its good for the dog to fear what will happen if he goes in the house.

Since your brother doesn't believe in random people's theories, I would buy Ivan Balabanov's video 1 and 2 "Clear Communication." I wouldn't bother go get into fight with him.

http://www.caninetrainingsystems.com...ey=V-SCH-BAL-1
And plan to watch it when you know your brother is going to walk into the room. At least, you and your brother can learn something new somehow. If he is not watching it, then thats fine. Let it go.

[kelliope]

God this just breaks my heart.

[4dogs3cats]

Originally Posted by French Ring

Since your brother doesn't believe in random people's theories, I would buy Ivan Balabanov's video 1 and 2 "Clear Communication." I wouldn't bother go get into fight with him.

http://www.caninetrainingsystems.com...ey=V-SCH-BAL-1
And plan to watch it when you know your brother is going to walk into the room. At least, you and your brother can learn something new somehow. If he is not watching it, then thats fine. Let it go.

That guy looks interesting, thanks.

Originally Posted by kelliope

God this just breaks my heart.

Tell me about it.

[Elana55]

Jean Donaldson is a native of Montreal, Canada. She graduated from Vanier College in 1982 with a DEC in Music and Psychology and then went on to study at McGill University where she graduated in 1987 with degrees in both Music and Comparative Psychology (differences among species in cognitive and learning ability). She began in 1975 to compete in dog sports such as Obedience, Tracking and Flyball, winning numerous titles such as OTCh, TDX and HIT.

Also the same thing is said by Patricia McConnell Phd on page 77 of her book, "Control Unleashed"

Page 77
"It also helps tremendously to give your dog a treat every time that she goes outside - right after she goes, not after she trots back to the house. I’m always surprised at how resistant so many owners are to doing this. Once our dogs are no longer puppies, we seem to have some sense of entitlement that grow-up dogs should go outside, because “they should know better.”But, if they’re going to the bathroom in the house, you can either get upset about it and put on a threat display as any agitated primate would - scaring the heck out of your dog in the process - or you can get over it and give him a treat for going outside. Trust me, the latter works a lot better. "

and from pages 117-118

"I'm using anthropomorphic examples here to bring home a point, although there's a danger of misinterpreting your dog's behavior by putting yourself in your dog's place. A dog owner who assumes that his dog defecated in the living room because she's "mad" at him for leaving her alone during the day is forgetting that dogs are fascinated by feces. Dogs spend long periods of time checking out poop, sniffing it, and sometimes eating it. The Navajo word for dog is something like "thlee Shaw" and means "eater of horse poop." It makes no sense that your dog would offer you such a wonderful present if she were mad at you. Some people think that their dog is defecating on the rug to spite them, so they yell at the dog, perhaps rubbing her nose in it or, worse, physically harming her. Dogs who are treated this way cower in terror (not guilt) when their owners return home but are much more likely to defecate on the rug out of nervousness or fear in the house, because who knows what that maniac will do next time he comes home. "

Patricia McConnell, PhD received her Ph.D. in Zoology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison researching dog behavior and communication between professional trainers and working domestic animals. She is currently the owner of Dog's Best Friend Ltd., and Adjunct Associate Professor in Zoology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, teaching "The Biology and Philosophy of Human/Animal Relationships."

Co-host of Wisconsin Public Radio's "Calling All Pets," Dr. McConnell gives advice about behavior problems on numerous radio stations across the country. She is the behavior columnist for the BARk magazine ("the New Yorker of Dog Magazines") and a Consulting Editor for the Journal of Comparative Psychology. She is the author of the much acclaimed book "The Other End of the Leash," as well as a highly respected series of booklets on the treatment of behavioral problems. McConnell is a sought after seminar speaker, giving seminars and speeches about canine and feline behavior around the world.

I am sorry your Brother owns ANY dogs. He is abusing them. You know it, you have told him this and he is, like so many other simple and close minded people, "always right."

[4dogs3cats]

Originally Posted by Elana55

Jean Donaldson is a native of Montreal, Canada. She graduated from Vanier College in 1982 with a DEC in Music and Psychology and then went on to study at McGill University where she graduated in 1987 with degrees in both Music and Comparative Psychology (differences among species in cognitive and learning ability). She began in 1975 to compete in dog sports such as Obedience, Tracking and Flyball, winning numerous titles such as OTCh, TDX and HIT.

Also the same thing is said by Patricia McConnell Phd on page 77 of her book, "Control Unleashed"

Page 77
"It also helps tremendously to give your dog a treat every time that she goes outside - right after she goes, not after she trots back to the house. I’m always surprised at how resistant so many owners are to doing this. Once our dogs are no longer puppies, we seem to have some sense of entitlement that grow-up dogs should go outside, because “they should know better.”But, if they’re going to the bathroom in the house, you can either get upset about it and put on a threat display as any agitated primate would - scaring the heck out of your dog in the process - or you can get over it and give him a treat for going outside. Trust me, the latter works a lot better. "

and from pages 117-118

"I'm using anthropomorphic examples here to bring home a point, although there's a danger of misinterpreting your dog's behavior by putting yourself in your dog's place. A dog owner who assumes that his dog defecated in the living room because she's "mad" at him for leaving her alone during the day is forgetting that dogs are fascinated by feces. Dogs spend long periods of time checking out poop, sniffing it, and sometimes eating it. The Navajo word for dog is something like "thlee Shaw" and means "eater of horse poop." It makes no sense that your dog would offer you such a wonderful present if she were mad at you. Some people think that their dog is defecating on the rug to spite them, so they yell at the dog, perhaps rubbing her nose in it or, worse, physically harming her. Dogs who are treated this way cower in terror (not guilt) when their owners return home but are much more likely to defecate on the rug out of nervousness or fear in the house, because who knows what that maniac will do next time he comes home. "

Patricia McConnell, PhD received her Ph.D. in Zoology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison researching dog behavior and communication between professional trainers and working domestic animals. She is currently the owner of Dog's Best Friend Ltd., and Adjunct Associate Professor in Zoology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, teaching "The Biology and Philosophy of Human/Animal Relationships."

Co-host of Wisconsin Public Radio's "Calling All Pets," Dr. McConnell gives advice about behavior problems on numerous radio stations across the country. She is the behavior columnist for the BARk magazine ("the New Yorker of Dog Magazines") and a Consulting Editor for the Journal of Comparative Psychology. She is the author of the much acclaimed book "The Other End of the Leash," as well as a highly respected series of booklets on the treatment of behavioral problems. McConnell is a sought after seminar speaker, giving seminars and speeches about canine and feline behavior around the world.

I am sorry your Brother owns ANY dogs. He is abusing them. You know it, you have told him this and he is, like so many other simple and close minded people, "always right."

Have I told you lately that I love you?

Copy-paste-email-brother-HA!

This is what my email said right before I copied and pasted what you quoted from the book:

I'm not trying to make an argument here. I am just telling you that if there is one thing I know- it's dogs. My dogs are not 100% trained, I agree with you. Chance was also malnourished, abused, and given a 40% chance of SURVIVING, so yes I babied him, and yes he had separation anxiety and ate things because I didn't crate train him. You have 2 very easy going breeds. Labs and chihuahua's are one of the top few breeds for first time dog owners. German Shepherds and beagles are not because of the amount of training and how stubborn these breeds can have. RJ and Rossi love you guys, of course, I am just trying to HELP you with RJ going in the house because he doesn't know what you WANT him to or he'd go outside all the time. The following is from someone who wrote a book, (which has been given beaming reviews,) and has a PhD in zoology. If you don't want to believe me, fine. But believe her.

[5dogsandahuman]

You might also ask him if, when he has kids, if he is going to rub their noses in a pooed in diaper and then set them on the toilet and shut them in the bathroom....

That is ridiculous. Dogs are not kids . . .they are not people . . .and they should not be treated as such. They are dogs and should be treated like dogs.

Jean Donaldson also trained her dog to hump her leg. That's just the type of person I want giving me advice on my dogs.

[4dogs3cats]

Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman

That is ridiculous. Dogs are not kids . . .they are not people . . .and they should not be treated as such. They are dogs and should be treated like dogs.

Jean Donaldson also trained her dog to hump her leg. That's just the type of person I want giving me advice on my dogs.

My dog Bailey will hump your leg as you are sleeping. She's 5 years old and spayed when she was 1.

Do you really think that a dog will put 2 and 2 togehter when you're pushing its face in its own feces? Do you think its sitting there thinking oh wow i better not poop in the house, mom gets mad. If dogs arent kids, arent humans like you state, why would you possibly think they could reason like that?

[Elana55]

Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman

That is ridiculous. Dogs are not kids . . .they are not people . . .and they should not be treated as such. They are dogs and should be treated like dogs.

Jean Donaldson also trained her dog to hump her leg. That's just the type of person I want giving me advice on my dogs.

The quotes were not Jeans. They were from Patricia McConnell becuase the OP said her brother would not take advice from anyone less than a doctorate. Jean Donaldson says the same thing.

I have done what they have suggested for 27 years and I never read either book until this past year. My dogs were house trained quickly and efficiently using this method and accidents only occurred if the dog was sick.

No, dogs are not kids. The point of my original comment was to show the cruelty in what he is doing to "train" a dog.

I would no more support abusing a child to get the child toilet trained than I would support abusing a dog to get the dog house broken.

Sadly there are parents who do abuse their children to toilet train them just as there are dog owners, like the OP's Brother, who abuse their dogs to house break them.

[melgrj7]

My parents always house trained their dogs by shoving their noses in their accidents. Lucky has had accidents frequetnly her entire life, shoving her nose in it never helped anything. With management and praising Lloyd when he went outside, he was house trained in a few days and has only ever had 2 accidents, one was the first day we had him and weren't paying close enough attention, the second, he was sick.

[4dogs3cats]

Its just sad cuz its tried and true and still so many people are screwing up their dogs.

[Dogstar]

Um... Patricia McConnell didn't write Control Unleashed. She wrote "For the Love of A Dog" and "The OTher End of the Leash" (which is what that quote is from, I believe. :P