[slydogges]

it is imporant your dog be trained to where it has no lead for a collar because that is what training is for. Leads and collars break. they come off, they get dropped.

that's why I walk into a store and if people don't have an issue I take all equipment off my dog. you can tell it in his eyes hates being on a collar and lead as he obeys without it. It is remedial work for him and he knows it. dogs are not the stupid creatures people make them out to be. They are not humans, but they honestly tell you how they feel.

[Xeph]

Leads and collars break. they come off, they get dropped.

Which is why my dog is trained in offleash work. Off leash is the SAME THING as being off collar...nothing is connecting me to my dog. But I'm not going to be foolish and take away the chance of SOMEBODY ELSE CATCHING HIM should he spook or have a "moment".

My dogs check in with me, an my dogs come, and yes, leashes and collars DO break, which is why I work my dogs off leash and break the physical connection. That is enough. I'm not taking off my dog's means of identification, nor am I going to take off something I can securely snap a leash to in the even that he does have an "Oh hey! I'm a dog!" moment.

It's irresponsible to do so...and just plain RUDE in other areas.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Xeph

Which is why my dog is trained in offleash work. Off leash is the SAME THING as being off collar...nothing is connecting me to my dog. But I'm not going to be foolish and take away the chance of SOMEBODY ELSE CATCHING HIM should he spook or have a "moment".

My dogs check in with me, an my dogs come, and yes, leashes and collars DO break, which is why I work my dogs off leash and break the physical connection. That is enough. I'm not taking off my dog's means of identification, nor am I going to take off something I can securely snap a leash to in the even that he does have an "Oh hey! I'm a dog!" moment.

It's irresponsible to do so...and just plain RUDE in other areas.

Xeph
Well said, the problem here is that somebody will read slydogges's reply and actually think that's the way things should be(no leads/collars needed) Evidently her dogs are a lot smarter than a lot of the people I know (me included) who are known to make mistakes all the time. I do believe slydogges is young and has not had enough of those Murphy's Law incidents in life that come up and just slaps you silly and maybe you lose something near and dear to you because of bad life decisions.

[Love's_Sophie]

Originally Posted by wvasko

Xeph
Well said, the problem here is that somebody will read slydogges's reply and actually think that's the way things should be(no leads/collars needed) Evidently her dogs are a lot smarter than a lot of the people I know (me included) who are known to make mistakes all the time. I do believe slydogges is young and has not had enough of those Murphy's Law incidents in life that come up and just slaps you silly and maybe you lose something near and dear to you because of bad life decisions.

Or perhaps it's just an idealistic 'throw' to all of us who obviously don't have a clue how to train and achieve well trained or titled dogs...I think the titles speak for themselves...from CGC to UDX!!!!

She hasn't mentioned whether hers even have a CGC...which if they are so 'well trained', they SHOULD have!!!

Originally Posted by slydogges

it is imporant your dog be trained to where it has no lead for a collar because that is what training is for. Leads and collars break. they come off, they get dropped.

that's why I walk into a store and if people don't have an issue I take all equipment off my dog. you can tell it in his eyes hates being on a collar and lead as he obeys without it. It is remedial work for him and he knows it. dogs are not the stupid creatures people make them out to be. They are not humans, but they honestly tell you how they feel.

Your dog doesn't 'hate' being on a lead...he probably just plain isn't used to it...it's you that makes it like he hates it...he is reading 'your opinion' of the deal...

A collar isn't going to break if a dog is properly trained to walk with you...I can walk my girl with something as simple as fish line...sound's like your 'hateful leash trained dogs' probably wouldn't be so light on the lead; a dog that 'hates' something, is going to rebel against it at some point. Plus, places that do allow pets have signs that say "pets on leash are welcome"...if anything happens with your off lead dog, you could get alot of other complient people in trouble, and get pets 'kicked out' of such fine places.

To me it sounds like you are just an idealistic teenager who keeps arguing with people, just because they don't agree with "your" method...you aren't a professional, so tell me, why should we listen to you either? There MANY ways to train a pet, and MANY ways to get desired results such as off lead work... Give me proof that your methods work consistantly ACROSS THE BOARD with EVERY breed type out there, and then, maybe then, I will give a bit of ear to what you are claiming...

May you get a dog that will not respond to simple praise, and you HAVE to discover other ways to get your desired result; of course, your attitude depicts to me that you would simply coin the dog as stupid, and rehome it, put it down, or otherwise get rid of it, so you can find a dog who 'will' obey your every whim with just a praise reward.

[4dogs3cats]

I will NEVER take my dogs in public with no collar on. If anyone disagrees with me, why dont you head over to Digitsmama's thread- Digit's missing- hurts so bad.

The collar is a way to identify the dog. You can't control everyone. Even if you control your dog, what happens if someone grans it, and runs off? Then dumps the dog somewhere, and some nice person finds it.. I'm not going to lessen my chances of getting my dog back just to boost MY ego.

[missmolly]

Slydogges, why do you do 4H if you could care less about AKC events. I'd say 4H is even more pitiful. Your anger and strong language reminds me of some Richling trash talk.

slydogges, who is your trainer that you work with?

slydogges, who is your trainer that you work with?

[Elana55]

If your dog is well trained, the dog should not care if the lead is on or off. Fact is, the dog I told you about with the hay wagon fire did not wear a collar for 10 years of her 14 year life.

Interestingly, Leslie McDevitt discusses leads in her book, "Control Unleashed" and says the leash should be no big deal. Dog should not act differently with it on or with it off because you have the dog's focus.

Most dogs go, "WEE WEE i am FREEEE!" when they leash is off and that means you ahve not trained them properly off leash or on leash. IOW's the dog should not hate the leash if you have trained the dog properly.

In my other thread I have opted to eliminate the leash in my training. Mostly have anyway but now, due to my own development of a physical problem, I am required to.

However, my dog does wear a collar with ID and rabies tag on it (rabies is law in NY). She is also PR trained. Due to my current ailment, I have been having a lot of visitors to my house and have taken her in some very distracting places.. and she has been very very good and there has been NO leash. At 16 months old I train for perfection but, on occaision, I don't get it. Usually due to duration and she is not up to that duration level yet. However, she is very good and I simply put her back to where she was and repeat the command. It only takes ONE time at this point so I know that we are on the verge of her not breaking a command ever. Time frame is about the same as with my last dog.

We are going for our CGC soon.. and TDI.. if I can just get well myself. We are then going to proceed with sheep dog training and agility in addition to all the nice pet dog stuff where we go places and she behaves well etc. Just good obedience things. I am also training her to do a few tricks.. keeps her mentally motivated. I am teaching her her left feet from her right feet right now.. and placement of a particular foot on or in an object. She begs for these training sessions.

Now if I could teach her to take dictation and type on the 'puter I would be all set.

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by slydogges

it is imporant your dog be trained to where it has no lead for a collar because that is what training is for. Leads and collars break. they come off, they get dropped.
that's why I walk into a store and if people don't have an issue I take all equipment off my dog. you can tell it in his eyes hates being on a collar and lead as he obeys without it. It is remedial work for him and he knows it. dogs are not the stupid creatures people make them out to be. They are not humans, but they honestly tell you how they feel.

Ok, I've stayed out of this, but this just keep annoying me....


Im sorry but i've never dropped a lead or had a lead or collar break.

What kind of cheap collars and leads are you using for them to break? Why on earth would a person *like you* who is so focused on their dog ever drop a lead?

I think your banking on this statement too much as you keep repeating it like a broken record.


Taking your dog off collar is irresponsible, rude and illegal. I don't care how well your dog is trained it is not your right to inflict your off leashed dog on the public. If i saw a powerful breed being walked off leash i would not only be angry, but frightened. Most people don't appreciate the sight of a large off leash dog walking toward them.

Your practically asking for someone to mace your dog.

[Elana55]

Well, like I said b4.. the only time I use a leash is when it is legally required. However, the other side to this, and I don't believe Slydogges does this, is that when I am in a public place and my dog is off lead she is also at heel. She walks next to me as if there were a two foot lead on her collar.

However, in situations where there is a leash law, yes, a leash has to be on the dog.

Anyone who has a dog off leash in a public, non dog park or non dog event situation should have the dog at heel, not running willy nilly up to anyone or going all over the place. Anything else IS rude.

[missmolly]

Reading this post has made me go back and read some other posts on other forums because reading slydogges posts remind me of the training of Richling K9. I have some friends in Louisville who worked with him for a short while until they realized they simply abused dogs to get them to comply. I have heard rumors that he is training again in KY and the local clubs and humane societies in Louisville, Lexington, Cincinnatti, Owensboro, Evansiville are getting ready to take out ads in the newspapers to tell of the abusive training going on at Richling K9, Indian Point K9, and Liberty K9 where his training in employed. There is a big push going on right now to put them out of business.

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by Criosphynx

Taking your dog off collar is irresponsible, rude and illegal. I don't care how well your dog is trained it is not your right to inflict your off leashed dog on the public. If i saw a powerful breed being walked off leash i would not only be angry, but frightened. Most people don't appreciate the sight of a large off leash dog walking toward them.

Your practically asking for someone to mace your dog.

I think you missed what sly said:

that's why I walk into a store and if people don't have an issue I take all equipment off my dog

My interpretation of this is that Sly asks the store owners. A store is a private property and thus the owners decides what flies and what does not. If enough customers complain a decent store owner will ask sly to leash the dog. However it has been my experience that not many people will even notice the dog off leash. With my older dog I have done this and I have gotten many compliments and remarks about her good behaviour off leash.

As for in public places, well to tell you the truth I usually walk her on lead unless we are heading to the park. I live on a busy main street in Toronto, ON, Canada. Our local dog park is 15 minutes away. If I am bringing both dogs with me to the park, I would leash the older one up-just because I believe it helps teach the younger one what is expected on lead.

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by Guardian

I think you missed what sly said:



My interpretation of this is that Sly asks the store owners. A store is a private property and thus the owners decides what flies and what does not. If enough customers complain a decent store owner will ask sly to leash the dog. However it has been my experience that not many people will even notice the dog off leash. With my older dog I have done this and I have gotten many compliments and remarks about her good behaviour off leash.

As for in public places, well to tell you the truth I usually walk her on lead unless we are heading to the park. I live on a busy main street in Toronto, ON, Canada. Our local dog park is 15 minutes away. If I am bringing both dogs with me to the park, I would leash the older one up-just because I believe it helps teach the younger one what is expected on lead.

People walk into stores all the time, they leave too. Does this person actually stand at the door and ask every person coming in "this ok with you?"

Personally i have encountered many people who are as terrified of dogs as you'd think a person would be on snakes.

I have had people, scream, run, and say many a nasty thing. Keep in mind i run a pet store and my dog is tied up. Hes not huge. So there is no reason to be surprised at the presence of a dog. Yet some people react very badly.

People have fight or flight just like animals and all you have to do is startle the wrong person. I've seen a mail carrier mace a dog that was off lead but was in control, and just sitting there. She walked over to him and hit him in the face with it.

I have had children run up very quickly from behind and try to climb onto my dog. I have had children run up and grab or even try to hit my dog. One child ran up and pulled his tail and ran off.


YOu can know what your dog will do, but you can't predict what people or children will do. Hence my mace comment.

[jesirose]

I agree with the mace thing - I am a complete dog lover, but for many years of my life I was terrified on them. Even since I got my dog I have called AC to come get off lead dogs running around my area. I'm not going to risk myself or Sadie around a dog I don't know that is not restrained.

If I didn't have Sadie, I'd probably still be a lot more terrified around dogs. Now as it is I can try to find a collar on them, but when they don't have it or they won't come close enough to me, I have AC on my cell, because it's dangerous for the dog, MY dog, MYSELF, and my neighbors (our person AND our property).

The argument that most people will not notice I think is untrue. Everyone notices dogs in a pet store. Either because they like dogs, or they don't. Not that many people are ambivalent about dogs and won't see them. However, not everyone is going to complain. They might just leave. I hate going into the store and having people let their dogs run around on a rectractable and not control them. Am I going to complain to the staff? No, I'm going to glare at them and walk around them. If it got real bad I'd say something but I'm not a big complainer when it comes to that stuff. It'd still really bother me to encounter an off lead dog in a store, especially when you're allowed to bring on-lead dogs in. What if I walked in with my dog on leash? That's a dangerous situation!!

[Witch Hunt]

Your own words: By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

I think a few of you should read your own rules.

I don't normally respond or read these types of forums since I believe that most people on them are never who/what they appear. We can all be so much cooler on line. BUT, since I feel I have been personally attacked with no provocation from this site I will respond....as myself.

My name is Carla Gray and I am the owner/trainer of Indian Point Dog Training. I didn't even know you people existed until a friend of mine informed me that my business had been named as one you would try to have shut down, etc. Who do you think you are? You don't know me or anything about me. You have never been to one of my classes or to my facility.

I have never done anything illegal and have never harmed a dog in my life. Just because I don't believe in using treats, clickers, halti's, gentle leaders, etc. makes me neither cruel, nor anyone who should be the target of such a Witch Hunt. You are the same type of people that are trying to shut down Milan, the Monks of New Skeet, and anyone else who doesn't subscribe to your particular mindset. When people like you have saved as many dogs from death/shelters, etc. as these individuals, then you can tell me how concerned you are about a dog. Until then I suggest you keep talking amongst yourselves and feel very self-satisfied that your dogs will perform in little rings and living rooms. I think one of you said you take your dogs to off leash dog parks....there are plenty of videos out there to show how safe and humane that is, right? yeah, tell that to the owners of dogs that have been attacked and severely injured or killed by dogs taken to places like this to "socialize" them.

I trained one dog in PR and I have participated in sport agility classes where as we know it is totally based on treats and, yes, bribes/lures. Never did I attack them or threaten to try to get them shut down. Though that is certainly what I think should happen to these obedience classes that are such a scam on the public. I consdered Our classes are full of dogs these methods failed. The thing is most people just go away and keep their mouths shut. Never demanding their money back for a service that was a total scam. I just tell people when these methods fail their dogs to call me. Oh I know you are all appalled that these methods don't work for every dog....and if they don't....let's just put this one down and get another one. This keeps the shelters and breeders busy for sure.

I do not argue on these forums, nor do I feel the need to defend myself. I invite any and all of you to come out and visit. You will find nothing inhumane or illegal. That is ridiculous. I will never apologize for using traditional methods of training. Yep, I said "traditional" where dogs are given the respect and dignity of being treated as such. When someone walks into my class with an 85 pound Weimeraner that a grown man can't control and a 9 year old walks the same dog out of my class...that is success to me. AND...not a drop of blood to show for it! It should not take days, weeks, or months to get a dog to walk on a leash without pulling your shoulder out of socket. That is insanity and inhumane to the dog as well.

In closing, you can all sit here and argue with a 17 year old kid or people who have very little training experience and like to stir the pot and get you guys all up in arms, or you can actually look into things before you become hateful, threatening, etc. I have no fear of the Humane Society coming to my training field, my students would laugh themselves silly. We use our wicked training methods at secret places like Lowes, Bass Pro Shops, Meijers, WalMart, etc. Tonight we took them to a special event at the ballpark and were highly complimented by, guess who, The Humane Society personnel. One of our students was previously asked to join their Behavior Training classes. Your assertions are laughable and ignorant.

Also, I think a lot of this comes from my former personal trainer and your opinion of him. That is fine also, think what you want. I may not like Harvard trained lawyers, but if they can win my case it really doesn't matter.

Carla Gray
www.indianpointdogtraining.com

[Xeph]

I do not argue on these forums, nor do I feel the need to defend myself.

Clearly you do, or you wouldn't have posted in the first place. I don't recall seeing your facility mentioned anywhere.

And the only way PR training is a "Scam" is if the trainer is unknowledgable or if the OWNERS DON'T KEEP UP WITH THE TRAINING

[Criosphynx]

Originally Posted by Xeph

Clearly you do, or you wouldn't have posted in the first place. I don't recall seeing your facility mentioned anywhere.

And the only way PR training is a "Scam" is if the trainer is unknowledgable or if the OWNERS DON'T KEEP UP WITH THE TRAINING

I noticed that too, but thought i might have skipped a post or two... Glad its not just me....

[Witch Hunt]

Originally Posted by missmolly

Reading this post has made me go back and read some other posts on other forums because reading slydogges posts remind me of the training of Richling K9. I have some friends in Louisville who worked with him for a short while until they realized they simply abused dogs to get them to comply. I have heard rumors that he is training again in KY and the local clubs and humane societies in Louisville, Lexington, Cincinnatti, Owensboro, Evansiville are getting ready to take out ads in the newspapers to tell of the abusive training going on at Richling K9, Indian Point K9, and Liberty K9 where his training in employed. There is a big push going on right now to put them out of business.

Once again, I do believe my facility IS mentioned in the above post....wouldn't you agree? Would you not feel attacked?

[Xeph]

And before the mentioning of Indian Point K9 it is said that th eperson heard rumors.

Would I feel attacked? No. Annoyed? Certainly. But I would feel secure enough in my training methods not to worry about it unless directly approached.