[reverend_maynard]

Originally Posted by harrise

Wow, miss a thread for a few days and...

Anyway, found the quote I was looking for.

That's enough with the fancy book learning now!

This has been a good thread. Elana, Xeph, 4d3c, wvasko, all presented some great information. Sly and 5dogs did a great job of playing the shill, though unintentionally, I'm sure.

[Kuma'sMom]

What I understand about PR is that the purely PR people have dogs that are highly unstable and unreliable.

Well, I've trained my dog with purely PR, and he is completely stable and reliable, as well as being incredibly bonded to me. Most of the most stable and reliable dogs I've ever seen were trained using PR. Many dogs are primarily food or toy driven and really don't care much about praise. I trained my Pug with food rewards, since he is primarily food motivated, and fazed out the rewards over time. I don't need to have a treat hanging in front of his face to get him to obey me, and he absolutely loves to work with me.

[4dogs3cats]

Originally Posted by slydogges

take your dog outside, out of the stupid dog show ring and into the real world where its pouring rain, he has no COLLAR AND LEAD on, and have gun fire going off. see if he obeys you then. and have plenty of cats and other dogs around. makes sure to have a piece of raw steak there too. these are the real world distractions dogs must face every day. and don't tell me about the stupid leash laws. leads break , get dropped, bit in half,etc.

I dont take my dogs where its raining with random cats and dogs running around and some maniac barbequing while shooting a gun...so that isnt the real world for me...

[Dogstar]

Who BBQs in the rain? I mean, reallY! :P

[4dogs3cats]

Originally Posted by Dogstar

Who BBQs in the rain? I mean, reallY! :P

haha, and I can also assure you if it were any of MY cats....or dogs for that matter, running around, they would NOT be running in the rain. Especially Bailey cuz she hates when her feet get wet. Maybe he can put the gun down and come inside and barbeque- than i think everyone will be happy and I can continue my training...once the rain stops.

[slydogges]

are you all hermits that never take your dogs out or something? rain, random animals, food smells, sudden loud noises,etc. are things you dog will eventually have to cope with wether you want them to or not.

can your dog obey you with out a collar even on, the first time you command, every time you command, under any conditions, without any treats or bribes/"lures" in sight? if not then your methods don't work. show me that they work to my standards. if they do then we will talk. haven't seen any proof yet.

[Love's_Sophie]

Originally Posted by slydogges

are you all hermits that never take your dogs out or something? rain, random animals, food smells, sudden loud noises,etc. are things you dog will eventually have to cope with wether you want them to or not.

can your dog obey you with out a collar even on, the first time you command, every time you command, under any conditions, without any treats or bribes/"lures" in sight? if not then your methods don't work. show me that they work to my standards. if they do then we will talk. haven't seen any proof yet.

NO...I am not a hermit, and neither is my dog...did you not read that she goes to work with me? she goes pretty much anywhere I can get away with having her... I don't always have a lead on her...a collar, yes, because she has vital information...like her RABIES tag (should someone come up and ask to see proof of vaccination), on her collar; along with her id tag. And she does obey...there have been times when something freaky loud has gone on, and she has remained calmer than me- and that is saying alot, because she is a soft dog; and all I ever do is give her a subtle stay cue, either by hand, or voice cue...she doesn't run, but stays at my side, or feet in the position she was in before the scarey thing happened. Yesterday a squirrel literally ran under both of our faces...she didn't chase but only looked at it goofily (like, what was that?) after I gave her a leave it cue...we kept walking, her in her normal heel position; leash draped over my shoulder as usual.

Maybe we should just have DF fun match??? Huh? Cause even if I 'gave' you your proof, or anyone else, for that matter...I find that you probably wouldn't believe us anyway...I would even gander a guess that my dog gets out into public alot more than your farm dogs do...but that is just a guess, especially because you are still in school? My dog is with me during the day, pretty much everyday of the week...so tell me my dog doesn't 'get out'...

[4dogs3cats]

Originally Posted by slydogges

are you all hermits that never take your dogs out or something? rain, random animals, food smells, sudden loud noises,etc. are things you dog will eventually have to cope with wether you want them to or not.

can your dog obey you with out a collar even on, the first time you command, every time you command, under any conditions, without any treats or bribes/"lures" in sight? if not then your methods don't work. show me that they work to my standards. if they do then we will talk. haven't seen any proof yet.

They dont usually all happen at the SAME time. We were being comical. You were being angry.

Why do you keep saying with no collar on. Whats the big deal about no collar on? Will YOUR dog obey you while wearing a dress?

[Dogstar]

Originally Posted by slydogges

are you all hermits that never take your dogs out or something? rain, random animals, food smells, sudden loud noises,etc. are things you dog will eventually have to cope with wether you want them to or not.

can your dog obey you with out a collar even on, the first time you command, every time you command, under any conditions, without any treats or bribes/"lures" in sight? if not then your methods don't work. show me that they work to my standards. if they do then we will talk. haven't seen any proof yet.

Um, given that I know any number of exclusively clicker trained service dogs? Heck yeah they're working in public and yes, entirely without food reinforcement- that's the entire point of a variable reinforcement schedule.

I will say, I *do* consider it irresponsible to have a dog without a collar out in public. You need SOMETHING to hang the tags on.

[Kuma'sMom]

Yep, Kuma obeys me without a leash, not without a collar, since I would never bring him out in public without a collar, that's just irresponsible. No treats either. I can take him to the offleash dog park with dogs running all over the place, people with toys, treats, you name it, and he will listen to me, without being bribed by treats.

[Xeph]

Heck, I took Strauss out to a strange new place today (wayyyy out in the country) and let him off lead.

He ran around like a mad man, but every time I whistled, he looked at me, and everytime he disappeared around a hill or corner and I said his name or said come, he came back on the first try.

There were other dogs in a fenced in enclosure, there were rabbits, there were birds...he didn't have to obey, but he did because he's a well trained dog, and he's been reinforced postively when he complies.

Did I have food? No. Did I have my clicker? No. Because my dog's training is not dependent on him GETTING those things or me GIVING him those things. His training is dependent on his response to ME.

It is not "Show dog cookie/toy, THEN dog comes!" It is "Dog comes, THEN gets cookie/toy....randomly."

By the way, I'll have some great video for all of you later. He had an absolute BLAST out there, and it was so great to be able to see him running free without having to worry about careless drivers on the road :-)

show me that they work to my standards. then we will talk.

This was laughable. Seriously, I lol'd. Why should we prove anything to you? My dog's training clearly speaks for itself as #1, he's got titles to show for it, and #2 he's still alive :-p

He does more than probably 90% of dogs in America :-p

[Love's_Sophie]

Can't wait to see your videos!! I will admit, Your dog looks fantastic...especially his attentive heel...Sophie is wonderful (TD\CGC girl that she is), but she doesn't have THAT nice of an attentive heel...it's something that we have had to really work it from the beginning, because when I first got her, she wouldn't give me her eyes at all...She is extremely soft, so I think eye contact IS truly a hard thing for her!!! But she has gotten qualifying scores in the few fun matches I have gone to with her; if I had her LP, we would be titled both in RN, and CD.

[Willowy]

I don't understand why everyone thinks bribes are a bad thing....even those who are defending using treats and toys for rewards are still denying bribery. I see no problem as long as you can fade the bribes eventually.

My brother and his fiancee bribe their toddler son shamelessly. But the bribes will fade.....he isn't going to be getting M&Ms for using the "big boy potty" by this time next year, but for now, they serve their purpose. I know kids and dogs are different, but, honestly, what's so wrong with bribes?!?!?

[Xeph]

Because they're NOT bribes. A bribe is showing someone something and going "You can have this if..."

A reward is doing something that is expected of you and you get something extra...rewards are things you get SOMETIMES, bribes are "You get always, if..."

I do not show my dog a cookie and say "Sitz!" I say "Sitz!" and he may or may not get a cookie.

Giving somebody something for a job well done is NOT the same as going "Sit, sit, sit, SIT! HEY I'll give you THIS if you SIT!"

I expect immediate compliance, food/toy, or not.

It's a lot different telling the toddler "Timmy, you can have a cookie if you use the potty!" and the toddler GOING to the parents, saying "Mommy, daddy! I used the potty!" and them rewarding that.

"You can have this if..." and "You can have this when..." are two different things. My dogs are the trained with the latter, though I do agree that they start on the former.

[Elana55]

A Story:

My current dog is 16 months old, so she is "in training" and I expect that within another 6 months she will be as reliable as my LAST dog. But I digress.

I had a dairy farm and that was how I made my living. I ran just under 400 acres here in the Norhteast and had a good herd of 72 cows. In June one year it was exceptionally dry. The hay crop was good quality but short and was coming in VERY dry.

I was driving the 706 (a tractor that needed an overhaul) back from rented land with a load of hay. I am tooling along and a car comes up along side of me and the people in the car are gesturing towards my hay load.. I looked back and it was ON FIRE!!! Yikes!!! As I drove, I was fanning the flames!!! The woods were all around... DRY as a BONE.. (Apparently the fire was caused by cylinder blow-by and the stack had no spark arrestor).

Well about a mile from the farm there is this wide, gravel pull off. I hoped it was wide enough to prevent fire spread and It was in a little hollow so I hoped for NO wind. The flames were getting pretty warm at my back and I had to dump this load.. but did not want to set fire to the woods.

I get into the pull off and the fire was SOOOO hot.. I had trouble getting the thing blocked and then unhitching the drawbar.

Well, I hop on the tractor and go FLYING down the road to the barn (which is a mile away and behind a couple of hills) and call the fire company. My dog was at the barn and so she came back up the road to the fire with me (I was on the tractor.. the truck was in the field at the rented land so all I had was the tractor).

I get back to the fire with the tractor and a shovel to put out sparks and the fire company arrives. I put my dog on the edge of the road in a down-stay.. a SINGLE command to STAY.. There were two fire trucks and a rescue squad.. Sirens, firemen, hoses, smoke, people, noise.. it was mayhem. My dog stayed where she was.

I was asked to go to the barn and get some hay forks to pull the load apart (asked by the fire chief). Some nice neighbors offered me a ride (can't carry 3-4 forks on the tractor and it isn't FAST). I got in the car (nice car = no barn dog can ride in it)and came back with the forks and continued to fight the fire. Where was my dog? EXACTLY WHERE I LEFT HER... on a SINGLE STAY COMMAND.. at the side of the road.. about 30 feet from the fire. She never moved until I released her and it was a WHILE.

At the time, my dog was fully trained and about 4 years old.. maybe a bit younger. She worked cattle and was reliable in every way.. EXCEPT when she saw little kids. She LOVED little kids and she understood her SCALE (she was a 95 pound GSD). I would put her in a down-stay and if she saw a little kid she would break her stay.. she would crawl up to the child and lay her head on their feet.. and look at them sadly until they petted her. This was her one "transgression." I never had the heart to break her of this terrible misdeed....

Was she this reliable at the same age as my current dog? No. I would say she was almost 3 before she was that good (and she was a working dog.. helped handle cattle and horses.. and had to be 100% or I could end up with livestock in the next State.. as opposed to the next pasture!). Was my training method different than what I am doing now? Yes, some of it. However, I used PR for the housebreaking part and teaching to stay.. I didn't know it at the time, but I used PR for both those things and quite a few others like Recall.. but I didn't KNOW that was what I was doing.

So, there is an example of a REAL LIFE situation of a dog staying for a long period of time on a single command taught using PR methods.

I expect, the way I am making progress with my current dog that she will be as reliable as my last dog.. and it looks like it will be sooner. I am using a LOT more PR than I did with my last dog.. but the parts where I used PR on my last dog have over lapped. My dog gets kudos from observers at the mayhem at dog school for here "stay" and her "wait" and her recall. All taught with PR.. just like my last dog for those commands.

Last, but not least, there are always situations with dogs and dogs' behavior where trainers give up (same with horses). Does it mean the dog should ALWAYS be PTS? Probably not, IF you can come up with a "work around" and get through to the dog, then I think that it should be used. If you can work round something and get it under control so the dog doesn't die, then perhaps that is the way to go. Each case is different.

It is sort of a take off on the old adage, "Never a Horse that couldn't be rode, Never a cowboy that couldn't be throwed.."

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by slydogges

good post 5dogs.

A dog is not a kid or human or any other creature at all so comparing the to shows that you have no idea how dog learn. DOgs are dogs. Dogs learn by simple rules; praise for doing right, and correction for doing wrong. people are the ones who make it complicated.

All the authors listed are idiots plain and simple. It is easy to prove them as idiots. I could care less about their "degrees" in "animal behavior" and "operant conditioning" and clicker training where it was used on whales and dolphins which i far from training a dog. Degrees are just a piece of paper I can light on fire or do whatever with. They don't show me anything. I want to see their dog work. I want it to work in a very distracting and stressful enviroment with no lead and collar on and obey every command the first time it is commanded, regardless of how they train it. You want the results their method produces then you use their methods, no more no less.

dogs are also not as stupid as people make them out to be. They are fully capable of understanding what they are corrected for. I would probably not shove my dog's nose in his pee or dung, but he would be corrected and taken outside, but the dog needs correction some way or another. And the dog needs praise for going outside. not bribery like using a treat. Just praise and petting.

Exactly!

I too could care less about degrees. Infact if you want to talk paper, I personally have a 4 year Bsc in Psychology and I am currently working on a masters. When it comes to the training of my dogs I would much rather see a trainer that produces results that are valid out on the street, rather then some person with numerous degrees and published papers and who trains dogs in a ring.

Here is some food for thought: If Pavlov’s dog was able to connect the dots and show the world that dogs can remember things, why do we think that they will not remember that they have gone to the bathroom in the house?

[Xeph]

Pavlov's dog also got the ball rolling on operant and classical conditioning, which is what clicker training is. But it's not the same as the dog remembering it had an accident in the house...especially a puppy. There is nothing connecting such a memory to the dog. It's completely counter productive to scold a dog for something that's over and done with anyway, Either catch them in the act and correct, or let it go.

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by 4dogs3cats

If there is one thing we can, (I hope,) all agree on, is that if you constantly yell at your dog for what you don't want them to do and never show them what you WANT them to do, than you are only creating a fearful, confused dog. Just yesterday they picked up the floormat in the bathroom and there must have been a square foot on urine on it.

I can agree with you on this. If you constantly yell at your dog why on earth would it want to listen to you? However this goes the same for people who constantly talk baby to their dog. I believe in being less verbal and more about body language- the dogs watch me. I command once and will correct once as well (IMO it is over correcting that is abusive, not correcting itself). Oh and I always show them first how to do it, dogs need to be educated.

As for the spray bottle thing, that does not work for barking either. Chances are the dog barks for a reason-i.e. needs to go potty, bored, wants attention, etc. I have two dogs, one is a German Shepherd/Aussie/Husky and the other one is a GSP. Obviously these are high maintenance breeds in terms of exercise. My dogs are out playing/walking/running about 3 hours a day (I work outside and they come with me). They rarely ever bark unless there is an intruder at the back door, in which case I do allow barking to some extent.

Originally Posted by 4dogs3cats

They dont usually all happen at the SAME time. We were being comical. You were being angry.

Why do you keep saying with no collar on. Whats the big deal about no collar on? Will YOUR dog obey you while wearing a dress?

Because that shows you how reliable the training is. Here is perhaps a more relevant example, take your dog in to a market where there are lots of people and things to see, smell, do. Take the leash and collar off and see if your dog obeys your commands. Or here is another one that I see often: take your dog off lead and go walking on a city street. Yes, I know there are leash laws, etc. But trust me on this-people do not have an issue with a well trained dog. Chances are you will not be caught and given a ticket-chances are your dog (if they are well trained) will go unnoticed! I live in the city of Toronto and there are plenty of money hungry city officers who are more then willing to hand out a $200 ticket to owners of dogs off lead. I live in the downtown core and can often be seen with one of my dogs offlead. No one says anything, infact when I approached a by-law officer to ask a question he even commented on how well behaved she is and made no issue of the fact that she was without lead/collar.

I will admit my dogs are not perfect. One is trained off lead and the other is still working on it. But I do plan on having both trained off lead that way they can enjoy the freedoms that every dog should have.

[Love's_Sophie]

Originally Posted by Xeph

Giving somebody something for a job well done is NOT the same as going "Sit, sit, sit, SIT! HEY I'll give you THIS if you SIT!"

I expect immediate compliance, food/toy, or not.

Exactly!!

I went to a walk in training class on Thursday and there was a springer there, who was totally out of control. The owners had to continually ask her to do one command, but they would reward her regardless of whether she actually fully completed it; rewarding before the dog's butt is totally on the ground is only training her that 'if I give even a half effort, I get rewarded!'...and the owners did this over and over... she knew how to play the owner's and 'fake' THEM out!!!

With my dog's, even in the beginning stages, I only treat when the cue has been fully completed by the dog. No compliance=no reward, whether that reward is praise, a toy, or a treat.

[Ronda]

Originally Posted by slydogges

i'm not talking about other species. I'm talking about dogs. dogs are not whales, dolphins, rabbits, or whatever else you want to try to compare them to in order to believe this "positive reinforcement" crap.


show me a video of your dogs working in obedience with no lead or collar in a very distracting enviroment, obeying your first command, every time you command, with no treats in sight. I will show you mine. If your method of training is reliable in the real world that we live in I would like to see it.

Just because you are certified to do something doesn't mean you're qualified. I could get mister just got my degree or mister I've been doing this since I was old enough to walk to come help me with something. I'll choose experience over a silly degree any day.

here is my videos so far. I will be adding more though:

sly on lawn mower:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjLhU5KtIrc

If my dogs didn't weigh over a hundred pounds, I could hold them on a mower, too. Ummmmmm the dog COULDN'T get away. Did you see his butt wiggling to try and get free? lol, that video was super cute though. I'm not saying you did anything wrong at all, but I mean, it isn't as though you trained the dog to run the mower, himself.
I LOVE your farm, it is beautiful