[5dogsandahuman]

What I understand about PR is that the purely PR people have dogs that are highly unstable and unreliable.

I also understand that French Ring is a sport . . .and the fact that the dog went for something other than the weapon hand shows that it's sport . . .and I doubt that in real life that dog would handle the stress or truly be able to protect because the game is not fun and the sleeve is not there.

Believe whatever you want. Call us ignorant all you want . . .but your dog will not compare to ours in the real world situations they will be faced with once they finish training.

And no, we do not have to be perfect to demand perfection from our dogs . . .but perfection should be demanded . . .a slip up in real life can be fatal for the dog or other people.

[French Ring]

Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman

I also understand that French Ring is a sport . . .and the fact that the dog went for something other than the weapon hand shows that it's sport . .

Yes french ring is a sport and nothing else. What else do you need to say? We do have some people in our club who are police officers. Actually, french ring has a lot to offer than schutzhund.

I doubt that in real life that dog would handle the stress or truly be able to protect because the game is not fun and the sleeve is not there.

You are right, my dog might not save me in real life and I don't want her to save my life if she needs to. I didn't get Elisa because I want a protection. Actually, there are PPD dogs who were trained to save lives.

Believe whatever you want. Call us ignorant all you want . . .but your dog will not compare to ours in the real world situations they will be faced with once they finish training.

HUH? What kind of real situation are you talking about? What are you trying to achieve in a real world? I don't think if you depend heavily on obedience with only using "praise" method will teach your dog to protect his life for you. I highly doubt.

but perfection should be demanded

There is no such thing to demand a "perfection." It takes practice to make things perfect. You can't demand a trust and perfection in every dogs. You can't walk in a room and say " I want you do a perfect sit attempt at once and if you didn't do it right then you are no good and unstable." Dogs are not born to be a robot.

They all have different personality and not all will like the same thing. Maybe one method will work on one dog and not work on other. What if a dog does not care much for positive attention, but he is so intense with toys and food. All he wants is food and toys, and you can work your way around toys and food without need to bride him.

You are fortunately that your dogs depend heavily on "praise," but maybe your next dog is not going to care much for praise. Not all dogs born to be the same. I have no problem with anyone want to praise their dogs, but they shouldn't be so closed minded on other positive options too.

Your dogs will never be perfect so is mine. I don't care if she is prefect or not, but I love her with my whole heart for what she is. Elisa is not perfect in everything she does, sometimes she will have a bad day and giving me 80%. Some day she is doing fabulous awesome and giving me more than 80%. If she and I are in a high level competition for french ring and mondio ring, it will be nice if she gives me 120%. If we ended up in last place, I still be happy and proud. At least we tired our best because there are many excellent trainers and dogs that do things better than we do.

[slydogges]

man, you all really are idiots when it comes to dogs.

there is a difference between an unstable dog and a dog in pain. any 5 year old can understand that.

and muzzling an unstable dog is different than putting a muzzle on a dog in pain.

you said it right about french ring, 5 dogs. it is a bit different that schutzhund though. still a sport.

dogs trained with clickers, treats,toys, or any other bribes is not bonded with the handler at all, but to the bribe. It showes a false sense that the dog really enjoys obedience, but it doesn't. the dog likes the treat not the command given. A dog would be just as happy doing no obedience.

I do 4H showing and their requirements are kind of the same as AKC. what you do is the same. I haven't showed in any AKC shows as I don't have the time as I work my dog a lot in more stressful situations that a dog show, but putting sly on a down-stay around all those neurotic and treat driven dogs is a pretty stressful.

I have recalled my dog at a park before. I do have control over my dog. if a dog were to try to attack my dog I would down-stay him where he's at and take care of the aggressor as needed. That is my job as master to protect my dog and trust me if a dog is coming after my dog I will do what it takes to make that dog back off. I don't need to grab them. That is the pint of their obedience training at any distance. They could be 100 feet away doing whatever and when I give a command they perform. It just really depends on the situation.

utility is nothing compared to what my dogs can do I could have my dog doing everything for utility if I wanted to, but some of it don't really care about as it is not important to me when I go out into the real world with my dogs.

I have showed you my videos. where's your's?

[French Ring]

Originally Posted by slydogges

and muzzling an unstable dog is different than putting a muzzle on a dog in pain.

Still it means your dog is unstable even if he's in pain. Because muzzle is muzzle, inside your head it is "dangerous."

dogs trained with clickers, treats,toys, or any other bribes is not bonded with the handler at all, but to the bribe. It showes a false sense that the dog really enjoys obedience, but it doesn't. the dog likes the treat not the command given. A dog would be just as happy doing no obedience.

This is where my biggest irk. I don't hate you or think you are a bad person. I strongly DISAGREE with you about toys, treats, and clickers considered to be a bribe. They are not a bribe at all, but food can be. This is where I have a big problem with your opinion on that because I know it is completely false.

I do 4H showing and their requirements are kind of the same as AKC.

Do you think you are above everyone in here? Wow, AKC does a lot to impress everyone.

I have recalled my dog at a park before. I do have control over my dog. if a dog were to try to attack my dog I would down-stay him where he's at and take care of the aggressor as needed.

I'm glad you do have a control over your dog. Owners should have control over their dogs. This has nothing to do with the debate we are having.

That is my job as master to protect my dog and trust me if a dog is coming after my dog I will do what it takes to make that dog back off. I don't need to grab them. That is the pint of their obedience training at any distance. They could be 100 feet away doing whatever and when I give a command they perform. It just really depends on the situation.

I agree that responsible dog owners' job are to protect their pack from any threats outside their family. I have no problem with that really.

utility is nothing compared to what my dogs can do I could have my dog doing everything for utility if I wanted to, but some of it don't really care about as it is not important to me when I go out into the real world with my dogs.

What do you mean by "real world?" We are living in a real world and we aren't living in some fantasy land.

I have showed you my videos. where's your's?

I don't need a video to show you because I have no interest to be competitive to see who has "better" dogs. My opinion, when someone does that, they must be very insecure about themselves. If you believe in what you do, you have no need to prove anyone.

Things you have taught your dog is different than what I taught my dogs to do. How can we two be compared in something that are so different? French ring is different from doing AKC obedience. All SchH and IPO dogs are required to have intense FOCUS on their handlers. They are walking with their heads looking at handlers and ignoring everyone. They don't take one little peek at anything. From what I heard about AKC Obedience, you don't need that intense focus, but a mild/good focus will be fine.

[Love's_Sophie]

Originally Posted by slydogges

man, you all really are idiots when it comes to dogs.

dogs trained with clickers, treats,toys, or any other bribes is not bonded with the handler at all, but to the bribe. It showes a false sense that the dog really enjoys obedience, but it doesn't. the dog likes the treat not the command given. A dog would be just as happy doing no obedience.

I do 4H showing and their requirements are kind of the same as AKC. what you do is the same. I haven't showed in any AKC shows as I don't have the time as I work my dog a lot in more stressful situations that a dog show, but putting sly on a down-stay around all those neurotic and treat driven dogs is a pretty stressful.

utility is nothing compared to what my dogs can do I could have my dog doing everything for utility if I wanted to, but some of it don't really care about as it is not important to me when I go out into the real world with my dogs.

I have showed you my videos. where's your's?

Wow...you're something else...

Yes, I use treats, I use praise, and I give huge releases when an exercise has been accomplished, but DON'T EVER ACCUSE ME of not having a relationship with my dog...she goes everywhere with me, even to work (dog groomer here). She doesn't hate my husband, but when it comes down to it, she would rather be with ME...EVEN if he has treats in his hand (which you say is what they are bonded to)!! Tell me that is not a relationship???!!!! What you are saying is absolutely ridiculous...My dog is a dog, and she is allowed to be a dog...yet amazingly...she knows well over 50 cues.

I don't have a video camera, so I cannot give you videos...I could post pictures of some of the work we do, but you probably wouldn't be impressed anyway...I will save it for the show ring, the parks (where we play, encounter alot of our 'therapy' kids, and work on off lead obedience) and training classes, where we work on improving our skills as a team...

Ummm...guys...can I call troll?????

[French Ring]

Love,

Don't worry much about it because we both know that what Sly and 5dogs said aren't true.

[Love's_Sophie]

Oh I know...

I liked what you said about your Elisa too; my dog is perfect for me too, even on her bad days...jeez, it's like they think THEY are the only ones who have a relationship with their dogs...

[Willowy]

I wasn't going to get into this thread; I know little about any training method and my dogs are not particularly well-trained. I do find them agreeable to live with, though, so they are trained to some degree.

What I will say is that, of all the pet dogs I have ever met, I have never met one that could be called very well-trained. Some of them reasonably well-trained, maybe. But, those that were trained using mostly/all negative methods have all been unstable and scared, and those that were trained using mostly/all positive methods are more secure and calm. Since those that were trained using negative methods were NOT more obedient, I see no reason to make my dog unstable and scared by using aversives.

The average pet owner is not experienced enough to use aversives properly, and can easily ruin a dog. It takes a very experienced handler to use aversives in a manner so as not to ruin a dog. Aversive methods should never be recommended to an unexperienced dog owner. I believe I ruined my first dog by reading too many training books from the library, and, by doing as recommended, using too many negative methods. She's highly neurotic now. And my grandpa's dog (trained using HIGHLY aversive methods) was much, MUCH worse. I've never met a more unstable dog.

And he would not even walk near my grandpa; they had no bond at all. Yes, I know my grandpa was abusive and no good trainer would do that, but the point is that he "trained" his dogs that way because it was recommended to him by more experienced trainers. Great harm can be done by recommending negative methods to novices.

[Xeph]

dogs trained with clickers, treats,toys, or any other bribes is not bonded with the handler at all, but to the bribe.

Hey everybody!!

Take a look at my clicker trained GSD and I working in a trial! Look how he's not at all bonded to me, is ignoring me, and is refusing to retrieve the dumbbell!

I know nothing about dog training!!









Retrieve? Clicker trained. Retrieves 99% of the time with no food involved. Watch me? Clicker trained. The attention in heel? Originally trained with negative reinforcement...got nowhere. Clicker trained it...gorgeous

[Xeph]

Dear, tell your brother that this is what positive training can get you:







and most importantly:

[Dogstar]

Slydogges, I'd really like to see you train a German Spitz (or related breed- Eskie, Pom, or Keesie), a sighthound, or a bull terrier with nothing but praise. To perfection, of course. (And I'll define perfection as a 199+ score in the obedience ring.)

Cait
PS: When you do this, I will concede that praise alone is sufficient and go to that model of training.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Xeph

Dear, tell your brother that this is what positive training can get you:







and most importantly:

Xeph
I was not going to jump back on this thread, but after viewing pictures I had to give some constructive criticism. The dog was absolutely stunning but the handler was not smiling. When you work a dog like that you should be smiling broadly as it appears from photos that hard work pays off with dividends.
wvasko

[4dogs3cats]

Originally Posted by Xeph

Dear, tell your brother that this is what positive training can get you:







and most importantly:

Good example using my breed too! Gorgeous dog!

[Xeph]

Xeph
I was not going to jump back on this thread, but after viewing pictures I had to give some constructive criticism. The dog was absolutely stunning but the handler was not smiling.

The handler never smiles during the exercises :-) It's based out of stress, not displeasure with the dog. In between exercises I smile and he gets praised for a job well done ^_^

I'd like to smile more, but I tend to get so nervous during performance runs, that I become very serious, from thinking about what I have to do next. I can admittedly be very "stiff" with my emotions DURING the actual exercises.

Outside of the ring I joke to help with my nerves and smile a lot and talk to my dog. Inside the ring it becomes "work time". I'm STILL all about having fun, but the nerves can just get to me.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Xeph

The handler never smiles during the exercises :-) It's based out of stress, not displeasure with the dog. In between exercises I smile and he gets praised for a job well done ^_^

I'd like to smile more, but I tend to get so nervous during performance runs, that I become very serious, from thinking about what I have to do next. I can admittedly be very "stiff" with my emotions DURING the actual exercises.

Outside of the ring I joke to help with my nerves and smile a lot and talk to my dog. Inside the ring it becomes "work time". I'm STILL all about having fun, but the nerves can just get to me.

I understood exactly what was going on in your head and heart. Getting the butterflies and the nerves involved is all part of the thrill of handling your dog. That's what it's all about. Mistake free or not when it's done you still got your dog, how cool is that.

[Xeph]

Mistake free or not when it's done you still got your dog

Ain't that the truth :-)

And even on days we bomb, I wouldn't have it any other way ^_^

[slydogges]

yawn. no, pics are not enough. They show me nothing except a dog. I want a video or see your dog work in action.

so, instead of showing a person how to correct a dog you condem it to death. very "dog friendly" and "humane" there.

I know of a perosn who has two huskies who need no lead nor collar and did not bribe their dog. I also know of dutch Shepherd's dogs, boxers, rottweilers, jack russel terriers, and other breeds that are toted as stubborn and not able to be off lead let alone off collar. They obey without a collar on them, same as the huskies. Good enough for you..oh wait...I didn't train them so It isn't.


take your dog outside, out of the stupid dog show ring and into the real world where its pouring rain, he has no COLLAR AND LEAD on, and have gun fire going off. see if he obeys you then. and have plenty of cats and other dogs around. makes sure to have a piece of raw steak there too. these are the real world distractions dogs must face every day. and don't tell me about the stupid leash laws. leads break , get dropped, bit in half,etc.

we had to at one point stop on the side of the highway and fix something in the back of the car. I had to let the dogs out. I puit them on a down-stay with out a collar and lead on them on the side of a busy highway. That is a real world situation and my dogs must obey. They can't decide to break and go into the highway.

[Xeph]

so, instead of showing a person how to correct a dog you condem it to death

Who said that? Not me.

You want video?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HO5MAHiqYnQ

take your dog outside, out of the stupid dog show ring and into the real world where its pouring rain, he has no COLLAR AND LEAD on, and have gun fire going off.

We do it all the time. It's called schutzhund :-p Well, not collarless. I'm not going to risk the life of my dog just to prove something to somebody with a fantastically enormous ego ;-) You call me chicken I'm sure, I call myself smart and a responsible dog owner.

I don't bribe my dog. I reward my dog.

Would you work for no paycheck? Is that bribery? By your definition it would be. By your same definition, you should work for no paycheck.

and have plenty of cats and other dogs around.

You make it sound like these are hard tasks to train for...they're not.

And quit demeaning the hard work of others by calling the AKC ring stupid. It may be stupid to you, but it's hard work for the rest of us who care to show how well we've trained our dogs, and how hard we've worked to get there.

and don't tell me about the stupid leash laws. leads break , get dropped, bit in half,etc.

I'm not going to break the law and risk the life of my dog to prove anything to you. Good try though.

I puit them on a down-stay with out a collar and lead on them on the side of a busy highway

Way to put your dog's lives in jeopardy for your ego.

That is a real world situation and my dogs must obey. They can't decide to break and go into the highway.

Sure they can. They CHOOSE not to.

My dog may be 99.9 percent reliable, but he'll never be 100%, and I don't expect him to be. I won't risk losing him even for .1 percent

Ok, I'm done feeding the troll now ^_^

[Elana55]

Originally Posted by slydogges

man, you all really are idiots when it comes to dogs.

When people resort to name calling it is usually a sign that the person is immature, uneducated, lacking in imagination and has limited intelligence, limited writing skills and limited ability to self express.

Please, stop calling people names. If you are unable to express yourself without calling people names, perhaps you should move on.

Originally Posted by slydogges

..take your dog outside, out of the stupid dog show ring..

..and don't tell me about the stupid leash laws.

More name calling. Why not just say that you disagree with Obedience ring protocol and in your opinion it doesn't show what you think it should? Then, rather than coming across as an angry child, simply and politely state the parameters of your disagreement?

The same with leash laws? Why are things "stupid" when you can say that you don't like/agree with etc. leash laws? Not that it matters.. if you break them you get fined too... just like the speed limit.. Laws don't discriminate between dogs or drivers.

Originally Posted by Xeph

.. I don't bribe my dog. I reward my dog.

Would you work for no paycheck? Is that bribery? By your definition it would be. By your same definition, you should work for no paycheck.

You make it sound like these are hard tasks to train for...they're not.

And quit demeaning the hard work of others by calling the AKC ring stupid. It may be stupid to you, but it's hard work for the rest of us who care to show how well we've trained our dogs, and how hard we've worked to get there.

Very well said, Xeph. I know if they stopped paying ME I wouldn't go to work anymore.

Your dog is lovely and focused. I am sure you are very pleased with him. I don't do formal obedience but you have done a very nice job and TY for sharing it!

Originally Posted by Xeph

.. Ok, I'm done feeding the troll now ^_^

Yeah.. me too. I used to inspect bridges for the County Hiway Department and I can say that I have looked under enough bridges....

[harrise]

Wow, miss a thread for a few days and...

Anyway, found the quote I was looking for.

Classical conditioning of emotions explains why reward-based training procedures seem to work better and establish a stronger bond between the dog and his trainer than punishment-based systems. Every time you give the dog a treat or some other reward, you set up the event sequence "sight of you-treat-pleasant feeling." Even if your timing is off and your not a very good and knowledgeable trainer, there is no harm being done in this case.

-Stanley Coren