[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

It was not long ago you were 90% negative, so there's still hope yet!



It's simple, he/she is ignorant about learning theory. So narrow mindedness begets what?

CP
I might have been exaggerating a tad with the 70%. I don't want to ruin my image. I understand your narrow mindedness statement but the anger towards people using a gentler method of training still irks me and I am not even a people person.

[Elana55]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

It was not long ago you were 90% negative, so there's still hope yet!

I suspect that WVasko may actually be a lot more positive than he realizes or we know.

Have you ever watched a truly gifted dog trainer work? I have.. and something seems to happen between those people and dogs (same thing with a truly gifted horse trainer and I have watched one of those train). I am beginning to suspect that WV may have come up thru the ranks and is one of those people who connects with dogs.

I always believe "science first" but on the occasions I have had the absolute pleasure of watching a gifted trainer work with an animal, I know there is something else that they have that I do not have. It is a subtle something that you cannot learn in school.. it is there or not. A talent.

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

It's simple, he/she is ignorant about learning theory. So narrow mindedness begets what?

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of this that abounds in animal training.

Some of the most barbaric things I have ever experienced I have seen used on horses.. and it goes on to this day. It matters not that others have shown a better way.. it matters not that someone can get on a horse, bridle-less and saddle-less and ride a perfect reining pattern.. Nope.. they still have to resort to war bonnets and brutal devices to get a horse to do what they want.

The barbarism and narrow thinking in animal training to this day astounds me... (I am not accusing any one on this Forum of that).

Why not TRY some of this stuff? It is fun! If it doesn't work, you STILL can go and do things the way you have b4.. I mean.. what have you LOST? $1.50 for a clicker and $2 worth of hotdgs you cut up to make treats??? A week of effort? A dog taht worships the ground you walk on??? WHAT have you LOST????

And then.. WHAT IF IT WORKS and it works so well that you cannot believe it?

[4dogs3cats]

Originally Posted by Elana55

Besides all that, they get real disappointed when they offer something and you DON'T CLICK and reward.. because you have just upped the ante and want more. Does Kody look at you like you are freaking NUTZ for not giving him a treat? Atka will yap at me.. and then she sort of looks around and makes this high pitched, low barking thing that, for all the world, sounds like mumbling.

I think she is saying, "what is WRONG with her. The LAST time I did that she clicked... Stoopid owner..." It gets pretty amusing.

OR when we try something new and I am clicking and she does what I don't want I will conversationally say, "thats not it" and she will yap at me.. like "What do you MEAN by THAT'S not IT!??"

Honest.. one thing the NON clicker people are missing is the fun. It is REALLY fun to do this and see how the dog reacts once they are operant. Dogs are very smart and will do anything to train you to click the clicker! I swear they think we are the ones being trained.. and that is why it works so well.

This past week I have been working on the No Jumping thing (my other thread LOL) and in that time.. meeting all those NEW people, she has made a stronger connection to ME. It is so much fun!

I have some interfering things going on this weekend but I have to get her back to the Skate Board Park. We might need to get her a used skate board. She thinks that is fun.. and the kids LOVE it. She will probably do something with it like both front feet on and wheel around on it.

BTW How is Chance doing with Jumping? We have started that in Agility and last Monday night she was very successful at it.. finding her take off spot and turning on landing! Lots more to go before she is an expert but she is having fun!

haha so true. Its the clicker confused look. Kody will offer me anything, its cute. If I am holdng the clicker and I have him sit, and he sits and I forget to click, then he waves, then he asks, then he tries to shake. Its pretty funny. Like.. "Okay I usually get a click for that...maybe I misunderstood... did you say ask?? no...hmm" And I say "wrong" if its not what I am asking for and I get the look that SCREAMS "WELL THAN MAKE IT RIGHT!" lol

Chance is jumping but since the move we havent done it much, Kody lights up when I bring out the poles though! I have to get Chance back on leash and work with him more.. hmm Im off tomorrow, new goal!

Originally Posted by Elana55

Why not TRY some of this stuff? It is fun! If it doesn't work, you STILL can go and do things the way you have b4.. I mean.. what have you LOST? $1.50 for a clicker and $2 worth of hotdgs you cut up to make treats??? A week of effort? A dog taht worships the ground you walk on??? WHAT have you LOST????

And then.. WHAT IF IT WORKS and it works so well that you cannot believe it?

The funny thing is that if my brother tries this way its going to have one of two effects. 1.It will work and he will be amazed. 2. it wont work and he can go back to his ways.

If I try his way it will either 1. work and my dogs will be terrified of me. or 2. wont work and my dogs will be terrified of me..

Which would you rather?

[5dogsandahuman]

OK.. Treating a dog like a human and expecting human attributes does, indeed, cause issues. Disney has done more to promote anthropomorphism than any other single entity, to the detriment of our relationships with dogs.

I will agree that Disney portrays dogs as very human in nature . . .but Disney is not training these dogs. Kind of off topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman View Post
I don't think dogs have the mental capabilities of humans . . .however, dogs can draw parallels and learn.
I do not believe they truly can. This statement expects the dog to infer.. and that is a human trait.. so I think this statement expects a dog to behave like a human which contradicts the statement of remembering to treat a dog like a dog.

This does not contradict anything I said. A dog that knows how to sit and knows what is acceptable in one situation can draw a parallel to when they are in new situations and know what is acceptable or not. When I first started working my dogs in longer distance stays, they knew to stay despite the distance or distractions because I taught them to stay in other locations at a closer distance. I still treat my dogs like dogs while I expect them to perform in a manner that is appropriate. Another example would be that I give my dogs chew toys . . .they know to chew on these toys but on nothing else. If I put them in a new environment they would know not to chew anything other than the chew toys even though they were in new surroundings with other new things . . .possibly even tasty food things . . .around them. That is drawing parallels. Otherwise I would have to "proof" the dog in every situation . . .and I would make the excuse, "well, I haven't trained her not to chew on the chair leg at my mom's house . . .only at mine."

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman View Post
And as far as your dog humping anything, I would have put a stop to that immediately. That's a disgusting and embarrassing habit that should never be allowed, let alone encouraged or trained into a dog.
Ah.. but from your first statement, dogs are dogs and not humans.

Therefore, dogs, as part of how they are, tend to hump things including each other, as part of their social process in addition to the way they actually breed when a female is in heat.

Dogs do not find "humping" disgusting or embarassing. Only humans find this disgusting or ebarrassing. Therefore, by expecting a dog to understand the moral implications surrounding humping, you have violated your first premise that "..dogs ARE NOT human and do not behave, respond, or communicate in the same manner. People drawing these parallels and trying to treat their dogs as though they are people is why most people have difficulties with their dogs.."

I do agree that you can train a dog to not display humping activity, but do realize that when you are extringuishing this behavior you are going against the nature of how dogs socialize, human 'embarassment' aside. It is also something I would NOT encourage my own dog to do.

I might also add that having been around a lot of animals for a lot of years, the sight of animals humping is neither disgusting or embarassing to me... it is simply another behavior.

Not to say that every social behavior dogs exhibit toward each other is acceptable.. it is not. They also bite each other, sometimes roughly, to communicate and we don't allow that either.

PS: Where is Curbside Prophet? He has a lot more knoweldge and expertise that I do!

Never did I say that dogs don't hump nor did I say that it wasn't a part of normal dog behavior. What I said is that it is disgusting and embarrassing to have a dog that humps things. I would NEVER teach my dog to do that. It may be viewed as acceptable behavior in the dog world, but the dog is living in my world and I therefore have the right to say what is acceptable and what is not. Like you said, biting is also a normal dog behavior, but under normal circumstances, this is not something that is acceptable. I am not treating my dogs as humans by not allowing them to hump, bite, dig, fight, etc . . .I am treating them as trained dogs that have boundaries and rules.

And no, humping as a part of reproduction is nothing that I'm worried about. Having a dog randomly hump another at the park or your friend's leg when they come to visit is. And despite what you might say, NO ONE would want their leg humped by a dog no matter how much they understand dog behavior.

Also, as far as Sly praising her dogs when they are recalled, those of you on here who are so called PR believers should be jumping for joy at that! Who gives a crap if she praised her dogs when they came? In the real world I'm sure you would do whatever it took to get your dog back . . .only stupid AKC rules say you shouldn't praise your dog on recall . . .and I hate to break it to you, AKC is NOT real life! And, as far as the dog having to sit once it is recalled to you, that is another stupid AKC rule. Why would you care if your dog sat in front of you if it came back? All I have to do is tell my dog to sit. All Sly would have to do would be to start telling her dogs to sit after every recall and they would do it. If she were training the dogs to compete in sport or AKC, she might need to work on that . . .but in the real world none of that matters.

For those of you who are attacking Sly for saying that she did not have her dogs in a "highly distracting environment" . . .distractions can be of all shapes/sizes/and types. You can completely stress a dog and cause a high amount of distraction without having other things around. YOU can be the distraction . . .outside distractions are not the only kind that exist. The weather and distance and time spent in the stay are all levels of difficulty as well. There are nights when I train that I am the only distraction my dogs have . . .and then there are days when we visit places like Lowes and I have people/carts/machines and all kinds of other things whizzing by them . . .just as Sly had her dog on the tractor with her (which by the way is not any more dangerous than having a dog not buckled up in a car) to create an environment with varying types of distractions.

And, before you tell someone they are closed minded for not trying the methods first to see if they work . . .you should probably find out the background to see if they have. I tried everything from clickers and treats with PR training to e-collars for retriever training and was told to either keep my dogs separate or put one down because of aggression by people who have "been successful in highly distracting environments" and have had "years of experience training dogs" and "certifications and degrees" but did not find anything that worked until I found the methods that Sly is using. Maybe you should ask her about her experience with PR training methods before you call her closed minded for not "accepting" them . . .she's probably just as frustrated as I am that half the people on these sites are getting advice that isn't going to help and will most likely hurt them and cause them to do nothing but make excuses for their dogs' behavior.

[slydogges]

Thanks 5dogs.

That is a real world recall. I could care less about what the silly AKC says. he came to me. I didn't ask for anything else other than that and they both performed. I was praising because they were doing the command I gave them. You all really have do have no idea how to train a dog. The mere fact of being at that distance away from me, his master, was a lot of stress.

I do 4H dog club where they do the akc stuff. My dog is the best one there. He can do all the stupid finish, sit right in front crap. I hardly ever do it as I could care less if he did it in the real world or not. He comes that is all that is important as that is the command I gave. I will praise my dog when he does something, I could care less if I loose points They don't matter when your dog is going after a ball you threw and it bounces in the street and you happen to call your dog to you. I guarantee you that you would be praising up a storm as that just saved your dog's life.

I demand perfection. If you don't demand it, you will never get it.

yes, I did use the PR methods you all talk about. You know what one person WHO SHOWS IN AKC told me? PUT HIM DOWN. PROBLEM CAN'T BE SOLVED. he was aggressive towards other dogs. now I can work him with out lead or collar around 20 dogs, which most had the same issues, with no problem. Put a Gl on for the pulling and lunging was what one trainer told me. he fought it so much he was foaming at the mouth, rubbed his nose raw( after a year there is still a scar there), and it taught him nothing. It was a waste of money. I also was not told that it could hurt your dog's neck.

here are some articles I found that expose PR training for what it really is :

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_arti..._training.html

http://www.tsurodogtraining.com/plan_b.htm

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/balance.html

and it is no more dangerous for my dog to be on a lwan mower than it is for me to be on one. he enjoyed that ride. Didn't really want to get off.

[5dogsandahuman]

Good articles Sly. Too bad half the people who read them will disregard what he says because he only has 20 years of experience . . .and I didn't see a degree in psychology or animal behaviorism.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by slydogges

Thanks 5dogs.

That is a real world recall. I could care less about what the silly AKC says. he came to me. I didn't ask for anything else other than that and they both performed. I was praising because they were doing the command I gave them. You all really have do have no idea how to train a dog. The mere fact of being at that distance away from me, his master, was a lot of stress.

I do 4H dog club where they do the akc stuff. My dog is the best one there. He can do all the stupid finish, sit right in front crap. I hardly ever do it as I could care less if he did it in the real world or not. He comes that is all that is important as that is the command I gave. I will praise my dog when he does something, I could care less if I loose points They don't matter when your dog is going after a ball you threw and it bounces in the street and you happen to call your dog to you. I guarantee you that you would be praising up a storm as that just saved your dog's life.

I demand perfection. If you don't demand it, you will never get it.

yes, I did use the PR methods you all talk about. You know what one person WHO SHOWS IN AKC told me? PUT HIM DOWN. PROBLEM CAN'T BE SOLVED. he was aggressive towards other dogs. now I can work him with out lead or collar around 20 dogs, which most had the same issues, with no problem. Put a Gl on for the pulling and lunging was what one trainer told me. he fought it so much he was foaming at the mouth, rubbed his nose raw( after a year there is still a scar there), and it taught him nothing. It was a waste of money. I also was not told that it could hurt your dog's neck.

here are some articles I found that expose PR training for what it really is :

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_arti..._training.html

http://www.tsurodogtraining.com/plan_b.htm

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/balance.html

and it is no more dangerous for my dog to be on a lwan mower than it is for me to be on one. he enjoyed that ride. Didn't really want to get off.

slydogges
I see nothing wrong with the training program you are using and mine as I have stated earlier is 70% negative. I even checked out your articles and could find nothing to argue about because to train a dog professionally I find that balance is necessary to get a proper job within an allotted time period. Owners will not allow me to keep a dog for 6 months, too expensive. Only difficulty I see is your not very forgiving of other training programs. You come across as kind of harsh and angry. Of course this is your right and if you think this is necessary to get your points across go for it.

[4dogs3cats]

I never said I trained my dog to hump. She is a dog. She won't hump randomly. If you stick your leg out, she may or may not hump it. She doesnt hump strangers. She does it usually after me and Erik have been cuddling or *canoodling* she tends to get frisky. I dont find it disgusting. Kody will hump other dogs that come over. I dont hump people when they come over, but then again, I am not a dog.

[slydogges]

I come across as harsh and angry because people are lied to about these methods being "the most humane" when the trainers are telling someone to kill the dog rather than give it the correction it needs and being able to live the rest of its life to the fullest.

did you even read the articles I posted?

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by slydogges

I come across as harsh and angry because people are lied to about these methods being "the most humane" when the trainers are telling someone to kill the dog rather than give it the correction it needs and being able to live the rest of its life to the fullest.

did you even read the articles I posted?

Sly
Did you even read my reply

I see nothing wrong with the training program you are using and mine as I have stated earlier is 70% negative. I even checked out your articles and could find nothing to argue about because to train a dog professionally I find that balance is necessary to get a proper job within an allotted time period.

It's a wash out either way as there have been a lot of dogs ruined etc by the negative idiots as by the positive idiots. Save your strength and anger for things you can change or you will burn out early in life. I am now going to leave this thread as I find I'm not much help here.

[Elana55]

5 dogsandahuman:
Lets agree to disagree. If you terrorize a dog into obedience with corrections you lose much of the dog. The dog obeys out of fear not to as opposed to a desire to.

If you recognize that dogs do NOT infer and do NOT generalize what they have learned, you will take the dog to a few different locations and get the obedience as the dog will learn to generalize that particular command.

Like I said, your mind is made up and closed on this, so there is no point in more discussion.

Slydogges
I don't show AKC. I do herding (with my last dog) and am starting agility. My dog is starting on sheep. My dog COULD do AKC (she has the papers) but I am not interested. she comes and sits in front of me because that is part of what I ask.. and I have it an automatic.

You neglected to mention is that the dogs you were working with were Rehab cases with aggression problems. Most are not.. just simply untrained. A rehab dog aggressive dog is a WHOLE 'nother training problem than a dog that is basically untrained. In the former, you do what you gotta do (tho I still say start out TRYING PR). In the latter, I say try PR first.. learn how it works.. and move forward.

Corrections, or aversives, work in the right hands. Many people are too hard.. get angry at the dog and corrections turn into abuse aand that abuse can truly ruin a dog. That is why, especially on a dog forum, I will NEVER support aversive training methods. PR doesn't typically RUIN a dog and is not abusive.. if used incorrectly it just creates a fat, uneducated dog.

I am interested in a well behaved dog. I do, still, use some corrections but I try the other way first because it is less invasive... Sort of the old Adage of "first do no HARM." My results have, obviously, been better than yours using this method. Learning the theory is much much easier than actually using it to shape a behavior. I find it interesting and, for the most part, reliable (maybe I am lucky and have a REALLY willing and Intelliegent dog too?).

You assume much, but this is a forum and we are not face to face.

The issue, Sly, is the way your posts come across.. ANGRY and CLOSE MINDED. while many dogs would not hold a 600 yd stay, mine would, always have.. and leared to do so w/o corrections or aversives. Yes.. distractions can take many forms. What you showed wasn't much IMO. Not for the average dog. Maybe a lot for that dog but not a lot for most dogs I have worked with.

You do sound as if education is a waste of breath.. Remember this the next time you are sick or your dog is sick.. and you go to a Doctor or a vet. Would you rather the old lady down the road w/o education guessing at what is wrong, or would you prefer an educated doc or vet?

Education is another tool in this life, be it dog training or anything else. You read the academics and it can save you a LOT of time learning on your own on many things. Formal education has its place and I suggest you do not throw the baby out with the bath water (as I have not thrown out corrections, merely reduced their need and adopted many of the PR methods).

Well, as WV says.. I am done here. One thing I learned by education and debates in college and HS is that when a person is emotional you can't talk or discuss. Reason takes a back seat to emotion. All they do is FEEL w/o thinking.

Hope you can get rid of that.. Anger is a necessity at times, but it is far better to think first and save the anger for things you can do something about. What people think on a dog forum is not one of those places.

All of life you will meet up with idiots.. but even from idiots you can learn if you open your mind and throw the anger aside. You aren't going to control or change anyone's thinking or actions. Mostly all you can control is YOUR attitude. It took me a few years of living to learn this... in everything.

To paraphrase Ray Bradbury (Dandelion Wine): When you are seventeen, you know everything. When you are 25, if you STILL know everything, you are still 17.

Glad you like your dogs, and everything is working for you.

I'm done here.. not helping anyone as WV has said.

[5dogsandahuman]

Originally Posted by Elana55

5 dogsandahuman:
Lets agree to disagree. If you terrorize a dog into obedience with corrections you lose much of the dog. The dog obeys out of fear not to as opposed to a desire to.

If you recognize that dogs do NOT infer and do NOT generalize what they have learned, you will take the dog to a few different locations and get the obedience as the dog will learn to generalize that particular command.

Like I said, your mind is made up and closed on this, so there is no point in more discussion.

Slydogges
I don't show AKC. I do herding (with my last dog) and am starting agility. My dog is starting on sheep. My dog COULD do AKC (she has the papers) but I am not interested. she comes and sits in front of me because that is part of what I ask.. and I have it an automatic.

You neglected to mention is that the dogs you were working with were Rehab cases with aggression problems. Most are not.. just simply untrained. A rehab dog aggressive dog is a WHOLE 'nother training problem than a dog that is basically untrained. In the former, you do what you gotta do (tho I still say start out TRYING PR). In the latter, I say try PR first.. learn how it works.. and move forward.

Corrections, or aversives, work in the right hands. Many people are too hard.. get angry at the dog and corrections turn into abuse aand that abuse can truly ruin a dog. That is why, especially on a dog forum, I will NEVER support aversive training methods. PR doesn't typically RUIN a dog and is not abusive.. if used incorrectly it just creates a fat, uneducated dog.

I am interested in a well behaved dog. I do, still, use some corrections but I try the other way first because it is less invasive... Sort of the old Adage of "first do no HARM." My results have, obviously, been better than yours using this method. Learning the theory is much much easier than actually using it to shape a behavior. I find it interesting and, for the most part, reliable (maybe I am lucky and have a REALLY willing and Intelliegent dog too?).

You assume much, but this is a forum and we are not face to face.

The issue, Sly, is the way your posts come across.. ANGRY and CLOSE MINDED. while many dogs would not hold a 600 yd stay, mine would, always have.. and leared to do so w/o corrections or aversives. Yes.. distractions can take many forms. What you showed wasn't much IMO. Not for the average dog. Maybe a lot for that dog but not a lot for most dogs I have worked with.

You do sound as if education is a waste of breath.. Remember this the next time you are sick or your dog is sick.. and you go to a Doctor or a vet. Would you rather the old lady down the road w/o education guessing at what is wrong, or would you prefer an educated doc or vet?

Education is another tool in this life, be it dog training or anything else. You read the academics and it can save you a LOT of time learning on your own on many things. Formal education has its place and I suggest you do not throw the baby out with the bath water (as I have not thrown out corrections, merely reduced their need and adopted many of the PR methods).

Well, as WV says.. I am done here. One thing I learned by education and debates in college and HS is that when a person is emotional you can't talk or discuss. Reason takes a back seat to emotion. All they do is FEEL w/o thinking.

Hope you can get rid of that.. Anger is a necessity at times, but it is far better to think first and save the anger for things you can do something about. What people think on a dog forum is not one of those places.

All of life you will meet up with idiots.. but even from idiots you can learn if you open your mind and throw the anger aside. You aren't going to control or change anyone's thinking or actions. Mostly all you can control is YOUR attitude. It took me a few years of living to learn this... in everything.

To paraphrase Ray Bradbury (Dandelion Wine): When you are seventeen, you know everything. When you are 25, if you STILL know everything, you are still 17.

Glad you like your dogs, and everything is working for you.

I'm done here.. not helping anyone as WV has said.

I find it funny that you state that I would terrorize my dogs or that they perform obedience out of fear when you have yet to set eyes on my dogs or how they perform. Based on what you are describing, I have no doubts that at this point your dogs would perform better than mine . . .I am still working all five through intermediate obedience . . .however, once the training is completed, I would have no problems putting any one of my dogs up against yours . . .and you will see the happy faces and wagging tails on all. They perform obedience for me because they want to . . .but at the same time they know what is expected and that they HAVE to perform. They do not have a choice in the matter simply because if faced with a dangerous situation in which their lives may be at stake, they MUST listen to me. Thus, if I am not consistent and they do not perform the first time every time under normal circumstances, how can I expect a do to perform under stress? If this is considered terrorizing them, then I am guilty. But I would rather be guilty of this and have a safe, reliable, healthy, living dog than one that decided to chase a squirrel and get hit by a car . . .or one that would react adversely to large numbers of people in tight quarters.

I also find it funny that you say you lose most of the dog . . .I've seen my dogs become more confident and more personality come out of them through this training that they ever showed before. They are confident because they know what is expected of them, and they trust me for it.

As far as my mind being made up and closed . . .on this point you are correct . . .but only because I had my mind open to so many other methods and ideologies before . . .and all they did was screw up my dogs. I've gone to several people for help and instruction . . .I've tried the purely positive training . . .I've tried the treat and clicker stuff . . .I've tried treats mixed with pinch/chokes and corrections . . .and everything I've tried has not even come CLOSE to the results I've seen from the methods I am using now. . .and the results were almost immediate.

If you want to talk about people complimenting you on your dogs, as you had earlier, that's great, but what I will say is that I received compliments on how well behaved and highly trained my dogs must be only after 3 days in the new program. All my dogs were dong was walking on a loose leash . . .that shows how much disobedience people today are accustomed to and acceptive of. Despite what society might say or believe, I will not have my dogs acting in an inappropriate manner . . .and I will take ALL steps necessary to insure my dogs will be safe in all situations. If that means correcting my dog, so be it. But my dogs are happy, healthy, playful, and loving despite the discipline the receive . . .and actually I know it's because of it.

[4dogs3cats]

Well I apologize that this thread got so heated.

Last night we were hanging out with my family and my brothers fiancees family. Her dad had a spray bottle that they use on their dogs when they bark. They've had it for a year and *still* have to use it. It stops them from barking...that second.. but they start up again. Anywho- her dad kept spraying me with the water whenever I'd say anything. My brother said, "Interesting on how she stops, so I guess negative corrections work." The more and more he sprayed me, the less and less it bothered me, and a few minutes later I said, "Funny how I am now used to it and it no longer bothers me, so I guess your theory really *doesn't* work now does it?" I believe it CAN all be done using positive only. Many people do not have the time or patience for this. I myself have used negative corrections on my dogs. I just don't support ALL negative.

If there is one thing we can, (I hope,) all agree on, is that if you constantly yell at your dog for what you don't want them to do and never show them what you WANT them to do, than you are only creating a fearful, confused dog. Just yesterday they picked up the floormat in the bathroom and there must have been a square foot on urine on it.

When I got back to my house last night my dad apologized for the way my brother was acting, and I simply said, "Thats okay. My dogs are friendly and may not be the best behaved at all times, but I dont have to lock my dogs up when company comes over out of fear that they will bite, and I don't have dogs pooping in my house. I know I am right. That's all that matters."

(my brother had company yesterday and their lab mix went crazy and they had to lock him in his crate.)

[slydogges]

How can my methods be "all negative" when you just saw a video of me praising my dog like crazy on a recall? and then you say that I'm not supposed to praise when my dog comes to me. I'm confused.

My dog does the obedience because he trusts the obedience that I am giving. he finds comfort in those commands when in stressful situation because he knows that I, being the master over him, will not let him get hurt.

he is the same dog just more confident when faced with a stressful situation. He doesn't need a collar on him at all and most of the time goes without anything on his neck.

he had an aggressive dog snap and snarl at him and he looked at it like "what's your problem?" when in the past he was the one starting it or lunging back if the dog lunged at him.

[French Ring]

Originally Posted by slydogges

How can my methods be "all negative" when you just saw a video of me praising my dog like crazy on a recall? and then you say that I'm not supposed to praise when my dog comes to me. I'm confused.

You said that it is stupid to use toys or food. How can "praise" not be stupid? Well, praise, food, and toys are three ways to motivate dogs to do something good. I prefer toys out of three because it makes obedience more fun and I don't have to bride anything. I still use food and praise for other things. I think it is stupid to focus on one thing "praise" and ignore other two more positive resources.

My dog does the obedience because he trusts the obedience that I am giving. he finds comfort in those commands when in stressful situation because he knows that I, being the master over him, will not let him get hurt.

Because he trusts obedience? Well no, your dog doesn't trust it, he is interested to please you. There is no such "trust in obedience." A dog has to trust his master to tell him what to do. A dog can be taught sit and ignore his owner because he wants to. He doesn't have to listen. He doesn't need to sit because someone said "sit." It has to be a specific handler someone who he wants to please not some random person said "SIT."

he is the same dog just more confident when faced with a stressful situation. He doesn't need a collar on him at all and most of the time goes without anything on his neck.

So what, that doesn't impress me. Elisa walks around without leash and collar in french ring many times with a decoy standing there. Can your dog go under between your legs and walk at the same time? Guess what, my dog can do it. I'm not interested to brag what things she can do because she does many things enough to blow someone off. She wears muzzle and doing heel without need to scratch her face. I put her on the leash when I am done with the excerise.

All those things that the helper and I taught her, were basically on food, praise, and toys. She obeys me all the time without toys and food when we are out for walking/jogging/biking. I don't always carry food and toys and she will be off leashed running around and digging holes in the desert. If I call her name, she comes unquestionable.

Your ignorant post is pissing many people off include me.

[4dogs3cats]

It just comes down to common sense. If someone forces you to do something, you may do it, but you probably wont like that person very much. If you do it, it may be out of fear.

If someone gives you a treat every time you did what they wanted, you'd want to do it more often. I mean I know I would, especially if they were using oreos.

[French Ring]

Originally Posted by 4dogs3cats

It just comes down to common sense. If someone forces you to do something, you may do it, but you probably wont like that person very much. If you do it, it may be out of fear.

Exactly, you got this right. I don't want my dog to have a "fear-hate" relationship with me, but I want my dog to be excited to do things for me. I don't want to punish or force her to do things.

If someone gives you a treat every time you did what they wanted, you'd want to do it more often. I mean I know I would, especially if they were using oreos.

Yes, but we have to be careful with "reward" and "bride." I don't want to bride my dog to do something because it won't work if I asked him to do something with no food. Whether food is there or not, he has to be rewarded.

[5dogsandahuman]

Originally Posted by 4dogs3cats

It just comes down to common sense. If someone forces you to do something, you may do it, but you probably wont like that person very much. If you do it, it may be out of fear.

If someone gives you a treat every time you did what they wanted, you'd want to do it more often. I mean I know I would, especially if they were using oreos.

Until there is something more interesting than oreos or I am tired of oreos. If the bribe isn't as interesting as the other things going on around you . . .you'll probably blow off the bribe. But once again, you are trying to equate what YOU would do to the dog . . .dogs are not people.

And boo hoo . . .my poor dog was forced to do something. I don't care if the dog likes to sit . . .if I tell him to sit there is a good reason for it and therefore the dog needs to do it. If I let my dogs do everything they wanted to they would be destructive terrors . . .and probably like me less because I wouldn't be able to spend as much quality time with them cause I would have to fix everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slydogges View Post
How can my methods be "all negative" when you just saw a video of me praising my dog like crazy on a recall? and then you say that I'm not supposed to praise when my dog comes to me. I'm confused.
You said that it is stupid to use toys or food. How can "praise" not be stupid? Well, praise, food, and toys are three ways to motivate dogs to do something good. I prefer toys out of three because it makes obedience more fun and I don't have to bride anything. I still use food and praise for other things. I think it is stupid to focus on one thing "praise" and ignore other two more positive resources.

Quote:
My dog does the obedience because he trusts the obedience that I am giving. he finds comfort in those commands when in stressful situation because he knows that I, being the master over him, will not let him get hurt.
Because he trusts obedience? Well no, your dog doesn't trust it, he is interested to please you. There is no such "trust in obedience." A dog has to trust his master to tell him what to do. A dog can be taught sit and ignore his owner because he wants to. He doesn't have to listen. He doesn't need to sit because someone said "sit." It has to be a specific handler someone who he wants to please not some random person said "SIT."

Quote:
he is the same dog just more confident when faced with a stressful situation. He doesn't need a collar on him at all and most of the time goes without anything on his neck.
So what, that doesn't impress me. Elisa walks around without leash and collar in french ring many times with a decoy standing there. Can your dog go under between your legs and walk at the same time? Guess what, my dog can do it. I'm not interested to brag what things she can do because she does many things enough to blow someone off. She wears muzzle and doing heel without need to scratch her face. I put her on the leash when I am done with the excerise.

All those things that the helper and I taught her, were basically on food, praise, and toys. She obeys me all the time without toys and food when we are out for walking/jogging/biking. I don't always carry food and toys and she will be off leashed running around and digging holes in the desert. If I call her name, she comes unquestionable.

Your ignorant post is pissing many people off include me.

Praise is a positive reinforcement . . .treats and toys are bribes . . .there is a difference. You also don't have to worry about carrying around "praise" like you do with treats or toys . . .so your dog can always expect it . . .and you don't have to use it as a crutch like most people do with treats and toys . . .so there's a big difference.

My questions to you would be "Why does your dog need to wear a muzzle? Do you not trust your dog enough not to bite unless instructed? Is your dog so unstable that a muzzle is necessary?" I don't care if my dog walks under and between my legs . . .because I know if I wanted it to I could teach it how and it won't benefit me at all in real life. . .but I DO care that I have a stable enough dog that I don't have to muzzle it.

And I'm glad that your dog recalls to you well and that your dog is obedient enough that it can be off leash . . .but I've yet to see a dog that was trained with treats be as reliable as the ones that I've seen trained solely with praise as the positive reinforcer.

And . . .if the post is pissing you off . . .stay off the post. No one is forcing you to read or be a part of this.

[French Ring]

Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman

Praise is a positive reinforcement . .treats and toys are bribes .

Your post is laughable. Praise, treats, and toys are not bribes.. They are positive reinforcement!

there is a difference. You also don't have to worry about carrying around "praise" like you do with treats or toys .

You are a fool to fall for something like that. I don't need to carry toys or food with me all the time. If my dog came to me, it gets a praise. If she is heeling and keeping her focus on my face, I prefer to reward her with a toy. Play a tug of war.

My questions to you would be "Why does your dog need to wear a muzzle? Do you not trust your dog enough not to bite unless instructed?

All dogs should be muzzle trained and that doesn't mean they are necessary vicious.

Is your dog so unstable that a muzzle is necessary?"

Unstable? I find it humor. Elisa works with a decoy, and she does bite work.Does it mean she is a danger to public? No, she is having so much fun playing with her decoy in the field and obey my commands. She does food refusal, wear with/out muzzle, heeling, she has to stay between decoy's leg so he can't out run her if he did, she gets a bite, walking backward (face to face a decoy) while I walk forward, etc.

.because I know if I wanted it to I could teach it how and it won't benefit me at all in real life. . .but I DO care that I have a stable enough dog that I don't have to muzzle it.

If your dog is in a terrible pain, snapping at vets and everyone? Does it mean your dog is not stable? Your statement was ridiculous. Dogs should be taught to wear muzzle like they do with collars and leashes. It doesn't mean they are atomically dangerous. Just safety concerns.

.but I've yet to see a dog that was trained with treats be as reliable as the ones that I've seen trained solely with praise as the positive reinforcer.

Mind you, I am big on positive training and I use toys, food, and praise. Toys and praise are not " bribing" but food can be bribing at some times. I am not keen on food, but some food works marvelous on some dogs. It shouldn't be neglected because it is considered bribing.

And . . .if the post is pissing you off . . .stay off the post. No one is forcing you to read or be a part of this.

Who care if I got pissed off? I think your post was ignorant and I had to chime in. It showed how much you don't understand about "positive" reinforcement.

A video of french ring in case you don't know what it is all about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZso1...eature=related