[Elana55]

Originally Posted by Dogstar

Um... Patricia McConnell didn't write Control Unleashed. She wrote "For the Love of A Dog" and "The OTher End of the Leash" (which is what that quote is from, I believe. :P

OH MY GOSH! YOU ARE CORRECT!! I AM SOOO SORRY!!!

See, this is what happens when you stay up until 11:00 at night watching some silly thing on TV, then get up at 5:00AM because it is light out and the cats just HAVE to be up and so do you!

Yes, I stand 100% Corrected on the title. Leslie McDevitt wrote "Control Unleashed" which is NOT the book I quoted.

I quoted Patricia McConnel in "The Other End of the Leash."
At lease I got the "Leash" part right...

Geeze loueeze.. No Click or reward for that one.. I am going off to my crate...

[4dogs3cats]

ELANA!!!! BAD POSTER!!!!! Im gonna lock you outside and shove your face in that BOOK!

[JenTN]

You know, old habits really do die hard. Until now, I always thought that's what you were supposed to do, until I did reasearch before getting a dog.

One thing to try- I have found justifying it as outdated, cruel whatever doesn't work. BUT I have said "well, dogs LOOOOVE poop- they eat their own and all others- so really putting their nose in it is like a treat"- I got a couple of "oh, that makes sense!"

[Elana55]

Originally Posted by 4dogs3cats

ELANA!!!! BAD POSTER!!!!! Im gonna lock you outside and shove your face in that BOOK!

Can I now pee submissively on your new rug too?

[5dogsandahuman]

No, dogs are not kids. The point of my original comment was to show the cruelty in what he is doing to "train" a dog.

I would no more support abusing a child to get the child toilet trained than I would support abusing a dog to get the dog house broken.

Sadly there are parents who do abuse their children to toilet train them just as there are dog owners, like the OP's Brother, who abuse their dogs to house break them.

If I go by what most of you are saying, dogs like poop and therefore shoving their nose in it shouldn't be a punishment. What I was pointing out though, is that dogs are not kids, therefore if you are going to give an example to someone regarding dogs, you should not draw parallels to children . . .or humans at all for that matter . . .because dogs ARE NOT human and do not behave, respond, or communicate in the same manner. People drawing these parallels and trying to treat their dogs as though they are people is why most people have difficulties with their dogs in the first place. If you treat your dog like a dog, he will understand what is expected of him and be more stable.

Do you really think that a dog will put 2 and 2 togehter when you're pushing its face in its own feces? Do you think its sitting there thinking oh wow i better not poop in the house, mom gets mad. If dogs arent kids, arent humans like you state, why would you possibly think they could reason like that?

I don't think dogs have the mental capabilities of humans . . .however, dogs can draw parallels and learn. I never said you should rub the dog's nose in it . . .all I said was that it's stupid to use the comparison that was used. You should praise your dog for going outside, but it should also be corrected for going inside . . .unless this is a behavior you want to continue. You should also be aware of your dog's needs and give the dog access to someplace to use the bathroom if you do not have a dog door. Dogs learn quickly if trained properly.

And as far as your dog humping anything, I would have put a stop to that immediately. That's a disgusting and embarrassing habit that should never be allowed, let alone encouraged or trained into a dog.

[slydogges]

good post 5dogs.

A dog is not a kid or human or any other creature at all so comparing the to shows that you have no idea how dog learn. DOgs are dogs. Dogs learn by simple rules; praise for doing right, and correction for doing wrong. people are the ones who make it complicated.

All the authors listed are idiots plain and simple. It is easy to prove them as idiots. I could care less about their "degrees" in "animal behavior" and "operant conditioning" and clicker training where it was used on whales and dolphins which i far from training a dog. Degrees are just a piece of paper I can light on fire or do whatever with. They don't show me anything. I want to see their dog work. I want it to work in a very distracting and stressful enviroment with no lead and collar on and obey every command the first time it is commanded, regardless of how they train it. You want the results their method produces then you use their methods, no more no less.

dogs are also not as stupid as people make them out to be. They are fully capable of understanding what they are corrected for. I would probably not shove my dog's nose in his pee or dung, but he would be corrected and taken outside, but the dog needs correction some way or another. And the dog needs praise for going outside. not bribery like using a treat. Just praise and petting.

[Love's_Sophie]

Oh I HEAR you girl!! My hubby and I had a disgruntlement this evening about dog training too. He was working sit and down stays with the new girl, and she just was not getting it today (just a bit more distracted), well, instead of remaining calm, he got all keyed up...so of course, she fed off the frustration, and not only started getting up, but started running away from him when he went to get her back to her stay position...and lets just say he wasn't being 'kind' in setting her back to her 'stay position'!!! She wasn't being hurt, but she was being scared...but he just doesn't get this concept...that a fearful dog isn't a learning dog.

I told him he needs to control his emotions, and especially needs to 'stick to it' and end on a good note, with the dog; cause he wound up quitting; which I then took the dog, did some of the exercises, with only ONE break out of 4 tries, and handed her back to him, and told him to try again!

It's so crazy how people can be, because during the first couple weeks we have had her, hubby was amazed at how smart she was, and after just a few days of 'distractedness' she is too stupid to learn and he gives up on her...go figure...He's also slacking on keeping her on the leash...and she does not have an extremely reliable recall...which HE KNOWS full well...but he is so stubbornly set in his thinking that he truly thinks no matter how much I tell him or how much he reads a page in a book, that the dog won't learn how to come off lead unless it is off lead!!!! I keep reminding him what happened to his last dog, because of his sometimes unreliable recall (it was most unreliable for him)...but he refuses to listen and learn I will still randomly put Sophie's 50 foot long line on, just to ensure her recall 'stays' strong, especially at the parks, and she has a great recall.

[Elana55]

Originally Posted by slydogges

good post 5dogs.

A dog is not a kid or human or any other creature at all so comparing the to shows that you have no idea how dog learn. DOgs are dogs. Dogs learn by simple rules; praise for doing right, and correction for doing wrong. people are the ones who make it complicated..

Actually, it has been proven over and over across the face of many species.... and it is not complicated at all. Really it is not. Reward for success and always set the dog up to succeed.

Originally Posted by slydogges

All the authors listed are idiots plain and simple. It is easy to prove them as idiots. I could care less about their "degrees" in "animal behavior" and "operant conditioning" and clicker training where it was used on whales and dolphins which i far from training a dog. Degrees are just a piece of paper I can light on fire or do whatever with. They don't show me anything. I want to see their dog work. I want it to work in a very distracting and stressful enviroment with no lead and collar on and obey every command the first time it is commanded, regardless of how they train it. You want the results their method produces then you use their methods, no more no less..

Jean Donaldson's dogs compete in Agility (very distracting environment and off leash). McConell's dogs herd sheep.. and that is also off leash and in a distracting environment.

Education in any field does do one thing for you.. it opens up your mind to new ideas or ways that are different. Whether you agree or disagree with those ideas, you can learn to accept that they do exist. It also teaches you to give new ideas a TRY b4 discarding them if they might apply to what you do.. and maybe just maybe, they might work for you beyond anything you could even imagine.

No, a degree and education does not necessarily equate to expertise, but it can go a long way toward shortening the process to gain expertise. The next time you need medical care or your dog needs a vet, I suggest you take yourself or your dog to some back alley self taught doctor.. because lets face it.. those degrees in medicine (human or vet) "don't show me anything"

A closed mind is one to be viewed only from the outside... *sigh*

Originally Posted by slydogges

dogs are also not as stupid as people make them out to be. They are fully capable of understanding what they are corrected for. I would probably not shove my dog's nose in his pee or dung, but he would be corrected and taken outside, but the dog needs correction some way or another. And the dog needs praise for going outside. not bribery like using a treat. Just praise and petting.

FWIW, not knowing ANYTHING about the work of the two authors prior to last year, I had dogs for 27 years and they were well trained dogs. I used the methods for house breaking that are outlined by both those authors and in 27 years I had dogs that were quickly and efficiently house trained (no rubbing their noses in poop and no correction for mistakes indoors). These authors put into words exactly what I have been doing and succeeding at doing.

In the last 27 years and 8 dogs, I can count on one hand the number of accidents any of my dogs had indoors and all of those were due to the dog having an illness.

How did I EVER manage to pull THAT off w/o a correction? I actually found that by NOT ALLOWING THE DOG TO FAIL and always rewarding the dog for success, I had no failures. The introduction of a marker and food along with petting praise has increased the speed with which I have attained results ten fold.

Recently, I have read the academic work regarding dog training, which parallels how I have house trained my dogs. I have carried this over to obedience training.. the business of reward for a job well done and trying to set the dog up for success.. and the results in my current dog are often beyond my willdest dreams.

This does not mean I never correct my dog. I do. I just do it differently than I used to and it is working. I could go back to what I used to do, but what I do now, with the clicker and food, is doing the job (not a bribe BTW that is luring, but that's right.. you already KNOW what I do doesn't work).

In the end, my dog gets compliments on her good training (I am the one who wants it better than it is.. it is MY desire to perfect it). My dog is happy and we are having fun. Her training is progressing and I have stepped up to the challenge of learning something new and different that I previously had not considered as a good course of training.

As I gain experience and skill in this type of training, I expect to become much better at gaining results in a timely manner. The current training method I have adopted is what I use first and it is what I will use as long as it is working.

If it was not working, I could always go back to what I used to do.. but it IS working.

The Academics are correct.

Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman

you should not draw parallels to children . . .or humans at all for that matter . . .because dogs ARE NOT human and do not behave, respond, or communicate in the same manner. People drawing these parallels and trying to treat their dogs as though they are people is why most people have difficulties with their dogs in the first place. If you treat your dog like a dog, he will understand what is expected of him and be more stable.

OK.. Treating a dog like a human and expecting human attributes does, indeed, cause issues. Disney has done more to promote anthropomorphism than any other single entity, to the detriment of our relationships with dogs.

Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman

I don't think dogs have the mental capabilities of humans . . .however, dogs can draw parallels and learn.

I do not believe they truly can. This statement expects the dog to infer.. and that is a human trait.. so I think this statement expects a dog to behave like a human which contradicts the statement of remembering to treat a dog like a dog.

Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman

And as far as your dog humping anything, I would have put a stop to that immediately. That's a disgusting and embarrassing habit that should never be allowed, let alone encouraged or trained into a dog.

Ah.. but from your first statement, dogs are dogs and not humans.

Therefore, dogs, as part of how they are, tend to hump things including each other, as part of their social process in addition to the way they actually breed when a female is in heat.

Dogs do not find "humping" disgusting or embarassing. Only humans find this disgusting or ebarrassing. Therefore, by expecting a dog to understand the moral implications surrounding humping, you have violated your first premise that "..dogs ARE NOT human and do not behave, respond, or communicate in the same manner. People drawing these parallels and trying to treat their dogs as though they are people is why most people have difficulties with their dogs.."

I do agree that you can train a dog to not display humping activity, but do realize that when you are extringuishing this behavior you are going against the nature of how dogs socialize, human 'embarassment' aside. It is also something I would NOT encourage my own dog to do.

I might also add that having been around a lot of animals for a lot of years, the sight of animals humping is neither disgusting or embarassing to me... it is simply another behavior.

Not to say that every social behavior dogs exhibit toward each other is acceptable.. it is not. They also bite each other, sometimes roughly, to communicate and we don't allow that either.

PS: Where is Curbside Prophet? He has a lot more knoweldge and expertise that I do!

[4dogs3cats]

Originally Posted by Elana55

Can I now pee submissively on your new rug too?

haha go right ahead

Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman

If I go by what most of you are saying, dogs like poop and therefore shoving their nose in it shouldn't be a punishment. What I was pointing out though, is that dogs are not kids, therefore if you are going to give an example to someone regarding dogs, you should not draw parallels to children . . .or humans at all for that matter . . .because dogs ARE NOT human and do not behave, respond, or communicate in the same manner. People drawing these parallels and trying to treat their dogs as though they are people is why most people have difficulties with their dogs in the first place. If you treat your dog like a dog, he will understand what is expected of him and be more stable.



I don't think dogs have the mental capabilities of humans . . .however, dogs can draw parallels and learn. I never said you should rub the dog's nose in it . . .all I said was that it's stupid to use the comparison that was used. You should praise your dog for going outside, but it should also be corrected for going inside . . .unless this is a behavior you want to continue. You should also be aware of your dog's needs and give the dog access to someplace to use the bathroom if you do not have a dog door. Dogs learn quickly if trained properly.

And as far as your dog humping anything, I would have put a stop to that immediately. That's a disgusting and embarrassing habit that should never be allowed, let alone encouraged or trained into a dog.

I will not correct my dog unless I catch my dog IN the act. It is the only way I can be sure that he knows what he is being corrected for. If I come home and find poop, Im not going to bring my dog to it and correct him. Why would that make ANY sense?

I dont set my dogs up for failure. My brother said his dog can be locked inside for 12 hrs and not have an accident. OUT OF FEAR! I cant go 12 hours without having an accident, why should I expect my dog, who drinks more water than I do, to be able to? My dogs always have full access to outside via doggy door. If they have an accident, it needs to be corrected, because they shouldnt, having the door. If I had them locked inside for 12 hours, WHY in the WORLD would i correct them for MY stupidity?

My dogs does not randomly hump people. My boy beagle humps to show alpha status. My female does this when you stick your leg out and say hump, (from having a previous male owner who thought it was funny.) I simply explain to guests that Kody is a dog, and he is showing he is boss, and remove Kody and say enough. I dont find it disgusting, and my guests understand because they know dogs are dogs. Now if I had kids humping each other, I might step in sooner

[slydogges]

i'm not talking about other species. I'm talking about dogs. dogs are not whales, dolphins, rabbits, or whatever else you want to try to compare them to in order to believe this "positive reinforcement" crap.


show me a video of your dogs working in obedience with no lead or collar in a very distracting enviroment, obeying your first command, every time you command, with no treats in sight. I will show you mine. If your method of training is reliable in the real world that we live in I would like to see it.

Just because you are certified to do something doesn't mean you're qualified. I could get mister just got my degree or mister I've been doing this since I was old enough to walk to come help me with something. I'll choose experience over a silly degree any day.

here is my videos so far. I will be adding more though:

sly on lawn mower:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjLhU5KtIrc

600ft. recall:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IptUgNjeWys

600ft. Down-stay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLG158V0ShI

In all these videos my dogs had no equipment on whatsoever. My dogs are bonded to me and are driven to work for me not some stupid treat or toy. The stress was the distance, the time they were at that distance and the "blizzard" going on around them. there was about 2 feet of snow on the ground.

[Durbkat]

Yea, but I noticed that you repeatedly said, good boy and good girl, after giving the command as a way to encourage them to continue coming to you. I don't have to do that when I call my dog. He comes when I say the command once and I don't praise him till he gets to me.

[Love's_Sophie]

Originally Posted by Durbkat

Yea, but I noticed that you repeatedly said, good boy and good girl, after giving the command as a way to encourage them to continue coming to you. I don't have to do that when I call my dog. He comes when I say the command once and I don't praise him till he gets to me.

Tehehee...glad you caught that too...

Umm...do you show these dogs? Because you should know that ANY praise before the judge gives a release is a penalty...the dog is to come without praise, encouragement, or more than one command...That your dogs come from that far away still doesn't show me much about how well trained your dogs are...most loved family pets will come from that far away, especially with all that encouragement. The lawn mower video actually appalled me, because that is such a dangerous place for any dog to be...that is no place for a dog I don't care how 'well trained he is'; if the moter is running he should be at a safe distance away from the mower, not on it.

I don't care how well trained a dog is, he will not be perfect every single day of his life...to expect that is to expect him to poop gold, and so far I haven't found a dog who has pooped gold yet! I don't expect my dogs to be 100% perfect 100% of the time...we all have our good and bad days; true when training is complete, there are more good than bad, but still...

As long as my girl can compete in obedience, rally, and utility when we are there, I don't care; if we don't make 'perfect' scores, oh well, it's still fun...because we have worked hard to get to a place where we can compete in those events. As long as she is a calm therapy dog no matter who she is 'ministering' to, then I have accomplished what I have wanted there too.

[melgrj7]

Not only where you encrouaging them to come by constantly yelling "good boy good girl good dog" they also did not perform a proper recall. They should have ended up sitting in front of you for that to have been a recall. Most dogs that like their owners will come running to them after their owner has just left them at such a distance.

[Elana55]

Yeah.. as the others have said. BTW, the environment for both U Tube examples is not a "highly distracting environment.." no matter the weather (which wasn't all that bad IMO.. had my dog do the same in much worse). A highly distracting environment would be one where there are mulitple other dogs (including strange dogs that run up to your dog as he/she is in a stay or recall) and lots of people/kids etc. or one with lots of livestock around (not livestock on your home farm... but in a different location). I can get my dog to do every one of the things you have shown on a farm at those distances.. with the so called "distractions(????!!)" you show.

I have two recalls. One is "come here" and Atka comes running and sits in front of me. That recall is my every day recall. I say it once.. anywhere.. and she comes barreling (I don't HAVE a video camera or I would show you).

Then there is my "really Reliable" recall for emegency situations. That word is "NOW!" and I say it ONE TIME and she comes FLYING to me.. and that is no matter what.. I swear she would come thru a wall of fire to get to me when I say NOW.

The recall was taught by using a clicker and treats or a toy or, as you so intelligently say it: "some stupid treat or toy."

She will come to me when I call her if she sees a deer (she will also LIE DOWN on a whistle or hand signal if she sees a deer or any other thing of interest.. taught to her for herding sheep). She will come to me when I call her if there are people around. She will come to me when called at the park, in the yard, in all kinds of weather and over, under, or around obstacles.

Oh yeah.. and I taught her to come w/o a rope on her, and w/o a choke or pinch collar and w/o a fence in place. I simply used Operant Conditioning and classical conditioning and those "stupid treats and toys."

BTW she also is learning to go to the refrigerator and get me a beer at the end of those long hot days we are sure to have this summer.

I have been trying to teach her to poop gold, but so far that has been a complete failure. I may have to go to a harsh method to get that one...

I can also get it done in a distracting place like I have described above.
AND I trained it using "stupid toys and treats..."

Ah well, your mind is closed.... and this discussion is pointless. I knew a fellow years ago.. he could barely read. He had an 8th grade education and was proud of it and a mind like a steel trap.. Completely Closed.

[wvasko]

Boy I'm not hearing any love here. I myself was getting worried about slydogges. A lot of sniffles and heavy breathing. I wasn't sure she was going to make the 600 ft. Now let's look at this differently and objectively. I would hazard a % guess and say that 75% of dogs in America could not be left on a 600 ft stay. What I don't understand is the hostility in slydogges post. Eveybody can use whatever method that turns them on to train their dogs, why the anger against positive. I'm a 70% negative old school trainer and I think, whether I use some positive methods or not that they are a step in right direction. With amateurs trainers there is much less abuse. I do have to agree with elana55 really was not much distraction there.

[whimsy]

I would hate to call your brother a jerk to his face but as I read your post that was the first thing I uttered under my breath.
Ask him if rubbing the dog's nose in poop and locking him outdoors lessens the mess? Why not save his energy and just clean up the mess? Maybe he needs to put enzyme cleaner on the spot to make sure the dog can't smell the accident and use the same spot again. If he would spend only a few days taking the dog out on a regular schedule and praise and treat when the dog goes outside he would have a happy houetrained dog. I feel sorry for any dog that your brother owns, I consider him to be cruel and heartless to do this.

[4dogs3cats]

Originally Posted by Elana55

I have been trying to teach her to poop gold, but so far that has been a complete failure. I may have to go to a harsh method to get that one....

hehehe- all ya gotta do is teach them to EAT gold- then they'll poop it!

Originally Posted by whimsy

I would hate to call your brother a jerk to his face but as I read your post that was the first thing I uttered under my breath.
Ask him if rubbing the dog's nose in poop and locking him outdoors lessens the mess? Why not save his energy and just clean up the mess? Maybe he needs to put enzyme cleaner on the spot to make sure the dog can't smell the accident and use the same spot again. If he would spend only a few days taking the dog out on a regular schedule and praise and treat when the dog goes outside he would have a happy houetrained dog. I feel sorry for any dog that your brother owns, I consider him to be cruel and heartless to do this.

Yeah... he is a really nice guy. SO smart too. Moved up to head of his whole building in the roughly 3 years he has worked there. His one problem is how stubborn he is. HIS way is the RIGHT way. He deleted the email I sent him. He still thinks he is right. My dogs may not be perfect, but they are NOT scared of me. To have a dog obey you out of fear, IMO is a total power trip. I want my dogs to obey me because they WANT to. Because its FUn and they get PRAISED when they listen. I dont want them to FEAR what will happen if they dont listen.

[Elana55]

Besides all that, they get real disappointed when they offer something and you DON'T CLICK and reward.. because you have just upped the ante and want more. Does Kody look at you like you are freaking NUTZ for not giving him a treat? Atka will yap at me.. and then she sort of looks around and makes this high pitched, low barking thing that, for all the world, sounds like mumbling.

I think she is saying, "what is WRONG with her. The LAST time I did that she clicked... Stoopid owner..." It gets pretty amusing.

OR when we try something new and I am clicking and she does what I don't want I will conversationally say, "thats not it" and she will yap at me.. like "What do you MEAN by THAT'S not IT!??"

Honest.. one thing the NON clicker people are missing is the fun. It is REALLY fun to do this and see how the dog reacts once they are operant. Dogs are very smart and will do anything to train you to click the clicker! I swear they think we are the ones being trained.. and that is why it works so well.

This past week I have been working on the No Jumping thing (my other thread LOL) and in that time.. meeting all those NEW people, she has made a stronger connection to ME. It is so much fun!

I have some interfering things going on this weekend but I have to get her back to the Skate Board Park. We might need to get her a used skate board. She thinks that is fun.. and the kids LOVE it. She will probably do something with it like both front feet on and wheel around on it.

BTW How is Chance doing with Jumping? We have started that in Agility and last Monday night she was very successful at it.. finding her take off spot and turning on landing! Lots more to go before she is an expert but she is having fun!

[jesirose]

LOL Elana I see the same thing. Sadie now constantly runs up to me and lays down, and when I don't click and treat she cocks her head to the side - "Mom, what the heck? I'm doing it!".

Several times after I have said "That's not in" when working on a cue, she has barked at me and stared. "Yes it IS it, now give me that treat."

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by wvasko

I'm a 70% negative old school trainer and I think, whether I use some positive methods or not that they are a step in right direction.

It was not long ago you were 90% negative, so there's still hope yet!

Originally Posted by wvasko

What I don't understand is the hostility in slydogges post.

It's simple, he/she is ignorant about learning theory. So narrow mindedness begets what?