[Lonewolfblue]

I've gone through Control Unleashed, and really enjoyed it. Now I'm beginning Get Connected With Your Dog by Brenda Aloff, and wow. I really like her training on Approaches, where you teach the proper behavior when a person approaches the dog. It's a completely different way of training that I've been taught by my trainer. From what I've been taught, if the dog tends to be very jumpy, you stand up straight with your hands under your chin and ignore the dog until they give you a proper behavior, then reward. What Brenda teaches is when the person approaches and the dog jumps, you start petting the dog and hold his collar while petting til he calms down. You don't stop until the dog is completely still. Also, when the dog looks back at his owner, it means that he's looking for help or support, as he's in an uncomfortable position, and the owner should then also join in on the petting until the dog is completely still. And on the DVD, they show this and it works very well.

Another thing that she teaches that I really like is called Follow The Pressure. What this teaches is the complete opposite to what is the dog's normal reaction to pressure. So instead of pulling on the leash when there's pressure on the collar, you teach the dog to back off from that pressure. In teaching this, you place the collar high on their neck and slightly raise the head and place your other hand in a C shape and against the dogs chest. Then at the slightest shift in weight, you praise and rub the dogs chest and head. You keep doing this til any pressure backwards on the collar will get the dog to walk backwards. And if the dog rebels, you do not release the pressure. The pressure stays until you get the behavior you want, then reward.

This is very good stuff, and for those wondering about this book/DVD combo, it's very good so far. I still have a ways to go in it, as I'm just starting it. It's giving me some really good things that I can work on Betty with, especially the Approaches. The jumping on others really gets old, and the ignoring just seems to make her even more intrigued, and she gets more jumpy. So for tomorrows class, I'm going to see if the trainer will work on me with this instead of the Rally course. And after doing some Approaches, might work on some of the Follow The Pressure with her.

[rosemaryninja]

Originally Posted by Lonewolfblue

What Brenda teaches is when the person approaches and the dog jumps, you start petting the dog and hold his collar while petting til he calms down. You don't stop until the dog is completely still. Also, when the dog looks back at his owner, it means that he's looking for help or support, as he's in an uncomfortable position, and the owner should then also join in on the petting until the dog is completely still. And on the DVD, they show this and it works very well.

How does this work? Isn't that rewarding the dog with attention and praise for jumping? Sorry, I am not being skeptical or questioning this method, it sounds very interesting and I just want to know how it works.

[Lonewolfblue]

What it's actually doing is calming the dog down, and you don't stop until the dog is calm. I agree with you, it would seem like you are rewarding the jumping, but it has the opposite effect. The other thing this teaches is that whenever you have your hands on the dog, they are to remain still. She calls it Be Still.

[rosemaryninja]

I see. How novel. But then, if you stop once the dog is calm, then isn't that sort of defeating the purpose because the "reward" (praise, attention) is withdrawn once the jumping stops? I would think that once the dog was calm, a further reinforcer (treat/toy) might be used.

[Lonewolfblue]

I would agree with you on this, but it seems to have the complete opposite effect. It's hard to describe, but with their demo dog, it didn't take long at all and the dog had a much better greeting, and was not jumping, even when a new person all of a sudden shows up.

Now I can see one other possibility, and that is that you are rewarding the dog for calming down, and the more they calm down, the more petting and rubbing he gets. Then you can stop when he is still, and repeat the process. And in the end, when the dog doesn't jump on you when you approach, he get's rewarded by petting him when he is still.

[MyCharlie]

Thanks for sharing lonewolf. I've been trying to get as much info on different books as I can.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by rosemaryninja

How does this work? Isn't that rewarding the dog with attention and praise for jumping? Sorry, I am not being skeptical or questioning this method, it sounds very interesting and I just want to know how it works.

What Brenda's technique is using is classical conditioning. Think Pavlov's dog...bell rings, dog salivates. Classical conditioning is associative learning between a stimulus and innate behaviors like fear.

What the dog previously learned is that when she sees a dog, her emotions get her excited and jumpy. Now if you pet the dog every time you see another dog and keep petting the dog until the other dog leaves, you're trying to create a new association to help calm the dog down.

It's true that if you reward a behavior it's likely to repeat itself. However, classical conditioning is always in play and what you'll find is that when classical conditioning and operant conditioning are competing against each other, classical conditioning always wins. So, it's quite useless to try and make the dog do another behavior, when her emotional response is dictating her behavior. You have to get the dog to illicit another emotion, first, before operant conditioning can work, and that's what petting attempts to do.

[Lonewolfblue]

Thanks CP, that explains it much better than I could, lol.

[Aggie]

Another thing that she teaches that I really like is called Follow The Pressure. What this teaches is the complete opposite to what is the dog's normal reaction to pressure. So instead of pulling on the leash when there's pressure on the collar, you teach the dog to back off from that pressure. In teaching this, you place the collar high on their neck and slightly raise the head and place your other hand in a C shape and against the dogs chest. Then at the slightest shift in weight, you praise and rub the dogs chest and head. You keep doing this til any pressure backwards on the collar will get the dog to walk backwards. And if the dog rebels, you do not release the pressure. The pressure stays until you get the behavior you want, then reward.

Horses. Pressure and release. =)

[Elana55]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

It's true that if you reward a behavior it's likely to repeat itself. However, classical conditioning is always in play and what you'll find is that when classical conditioning and operant conditioning are competing against each other, classical conditioning always wins. So, it's quite useless to try and make the dog do another behavior, when her emotional response is dictating her behavior. You have to get the dog to illicit another emotion, first, before operant conditioning can work, and that's what petting attempts to do.

CP:
I don't want to hijack this thread but this is a statement you have made before and (forgive my ignorance) I don't understand. I hated psychology in College because they did this experiment shocking dogs in aroom divided by a fence.. dogs were on one side.. fence in the middle.. bell rang.. floor was electrified.. dogs jumped fence to escape electricity. After this they could ring the bell and dogs would jump the fence 1000's (sic) of times without shock being turned on. I let the entire department, which was doing this experiment on dogs at the time (Proving repeatability)(1977) know my feelings! I got a "D" in the course for "poor attitude..." *sigh* I may have missed something as a result...

My understanding of operant conditioning was the old BF Skinner mark and reward a behavior you want, but to not reward what you don't want so no force involved.. and this sounds like your description of Classical conditioning which I was told involved aversives such as the electric shock thing (which your description does not use).

Help! What have I got twisted and turned around (besides my typing)???? If you want to PM me or recommend a book or books, I am open to it.. and I really AM confused (so no wonder my dog sometimes is too!).

There was a Brenda Aloff seminar near where I live just this past weekend, but due to Easter Dinner at My House I could not attend.

I guess it is another thing I need to look at and try (her book and DVD).

[Lonewolfblue]

Originally Posted by Elana55

My understanding of operant conditioning was the old BF Skinner mark and reward a behavior you want, but to not reward what you don't want so no force involved.. and this sounds like your description of Classical conditioning which I was told involved aversives such as the electric shock thing (which your description does not use).

Classical conditioning does not always involve aversives. It's like the bell ring and the dog salivating, no shocking involved there. Like CP states,

Classical conditioning is associative learning between a stimulus and innate behaviors like fear.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Elana55

Help! What have I got twisted and turned around (besides my typing)???? If you want to PM me or recommend a book or books, I am open to it.. and I really AM confused (so no wonder my dog sometimes is too!).

Bob Bailey has a great DVD called The Fundamentals of Animal Training. It's a bit expensive so perhaps your local library may have a copy, or you could request one.

To simply explain classical conditioning, it deals with respondent behaviors (reflexes). Behaviors that are driven by emotions within the animal. Pavlov's dog - bell rings, dog is given food - then again, bell rings, dog is given no food, but dog salivates. The dog has an emotional response to the bell (which is a neutral stimulus, it's not scary, or aversive), and the observed behavior is salivation (an innate behavior driven by an emotion, most likely hunger). Kinda like when you're really thirsty on a hot summer day and you hear a mister going off somewhere, you feel even more hot and thirsty. So, it's a condition of what the animal feels...not what the animal does...that's operant conditioning.

So then, operant conditioning deals with changing behavior upon a stimulus. Dog jumps on owner (stimulus) upon greeting, owner teaches dog to sit upon greeting, dog sits at greeting owner. Using operant conditioning, we can change the behavior from jump to sit. In your example, the dog was taught to jump over the fence using shock. How the dog felt about the shock wasn't a part of the test, but these types of discoveries did lead those behind Skinner into discoveries of what shock does to an animal (usually when one had to explain a failed test). Learned helplessness being one of those discoveries, where the dog just gives up to the shock and doesn't jump at all.

So when I said classical conditioning always rules, think of why leash jerking a fearful dog would not be a good idea, but leash jerking a happy dog may work some of the time. How the dog feels (classical conditioning) about the leash jerks will determine whether heeling (what's operantly conditioned) is possible. If the dog is too afraid of being jerked, he may freeze and shiver instead of walking on heel. Freezing and shivering are respondent behaviors, and to change that we have to change the association to walking on lead. So you're better off introducing food into heel work, and sparing the leash jerks for the jerks who use them.

[Lonewolfblue]

There's another very good DVD out there that teaches the same thing. It's called Cujo Meets Pavlov! by Kathy Sdao. It's also kind of spendy, but goes over the same things, classical and operant conditioning.

[MyCharlie]

Thanks for all of the info, LBW and CP, and thanks Elena for asking for clarification! (I was a little confused also). I have been trying to read so much and learn so much that I sometimes feel like I'm on overload. It really helps when you guys take the time to explain things.

[Elana55]

Thanks too CP and LWB for the explanation and the source material info.

BTW the "lab" at the University I attended where the Psyche sutdents did things to animals (Like putting kittens in barrels with vertical stripes and shocking dogs etc.) was shut down about 3 years after I graduated for animal care issues.

I am glad I got a "D" and kept my attitude!