[mydogspot]

Originally Posted by leesuh

Thank you!



Hm, what kind of body language issues have come up?

I could always go back to the Easy Walk if I needed to (and I'm sure I could find a way to clip it to her collar so I wouldn't have to dish out money for that other one). I just kind of like having the head control I have with the head collar. It's harder to give corrections with the EW.

Many of a dogs body language cues come from the head/ear carrige. I'm sure that you've noticed the difference in the way that your dog carries himself with one on. Again, I can certainly understand why someone would want to use a head collar. They can make an amazing difference in the ability for your dog to pull but I think the little bit of control given up by switching to a no pull harness is worth what you get in return.
I had a gal in class attach her Easy way harness up to the collar using a coupler. It worked better but was still missing the floating front clip...not sure if that makes a noticable difference.
I should also mention that it is never adviseable to do any kind of leash corrections with a head collar on. Not meant to be taken the wrong way but they really aren't meant for anything but control.

[Chindo_Gae_Cerberus]

Originally Posted by mydogspot

I would only ever use a martingale collar for a sight hound, I still find that dogs acclimate to the choking effect and they have little value as a control tool. I honestly don't consider any tool a 'training' tool. JMO of course..

It is not designed for choking.
That is using it incorrectly.

It's soul purpose is to not slip off over the head, and used to help the dog maintain attention on you during training sessions.

Any collar can choke, any collar can hurt, when in the wrong hands.

[mydogspot]

Originally Posted by Chindo_Gae_Cerberus

It is not designed for choking.
That is using it incorrectly.

It's soul purpose is to not slip off over the head, and used to help the dog maintain attention on you during training sessions.

Any collar can choke, any collar can hurt, when in the wrong hands.

I agree that the theory is that it is not MEANT to choke but as you know that is exactly what happens to the dogs of 90%+ of people who use them.

I see this constantly and it's the reason that I don't allow them in class. I'm all to familiar with the propaganda around their use. I've used every tool in the book, martingales included but find them an ineffective control tool and dangerous in the wrong hands (which again, is the majority of the population).

In order to use a martingale, +P methods must be in place and I just don't see the point when Loose Leash walking can be taught without the choking that does occur during the learning phase with these collars.

A no pull harness on the other hand, adds no aversives to trigger situations, does not require much, if any skill, does not need to be habituated, and adds more control while learning continues. All without the risk of injury.

I do the behavior consults. for our greyhound rescue and you'd be amazed how many of the owners, fosters and staff now use no-pull harness while leash manners are being taught. Martingales, only the very wide ones, are then used for these skinny headed beauties once the desired behaviors are proofed.

[K9 Conversation]

i have a German Shepherd that was pulling and got a Sporn harness. it helped quite a bit. you can buy them at petsmart.

[leesuh]

Originally Posted by mydogspot

Many of a dogs body language cues come from the head/ear carrige. I'm sure that you've noticed the difference in the way that your dog carries himself with one on. Again, I can certainly understand why someone would want to use a head collar. They can make an amazing difference in the ability for your dog to pull but I think the little bit of control given up by switching to a no pull harness is worth what you get in return.
I had a gal in class attach her Easy way harness up to the collar using a coupler. It worked better but was still missing the floating front clip...not sure if that makes a noticable difference.

I thought about then when considering the head collar but didn't see how it would hinder her body language (besides not being able to pull forward). The only difference I've ever noticed is her being calmer when I put it on.

Originally Posted by mydogspot

I should also mention that it is never adviseable to do any kind of leash corrections with a head collar on. Not meant to be taken the wrong way but they really aren't meant for anything but control.

The booklet it came with said to gently pull up and forward to give corrections. Of course I would never try to "pop" her with it or jerk it in any way. Is there any reason why the up and forward thing would be bad?

[mydogspot]

Originally Posted by leesuh

I thought about then when considering the head collar but didn't see how it would hinder her body language (besides not being able to pull forward). The only difference I've ever noticed is her being calmer when I put it on.

Oops, I think I called her a him...sorry. You know, the way I see it is if she isn't 'folding' when you use it and you're getting the control that you need without her fussing with it, then I think you should continue with what works. I do know dogs who adjust so nicely, never try to rub them off (usually because they were properly habituated) and really do well with them.



The booklet it came with said to gently pull up and forward to give corrections. Of course I would never try to "pop" her with it or jerk it in any way. Is there any reason why the up and forward thing would be bad?

That surprises me, what brand is it? Also, have you seen the Newtrix version? Of any of the head collars, this is my favorite one. Not that I'm saying that you shoud change what you have but if you ever need a replacement for the one you have, have a look - It works on opposition reflex so the leash attaches to the back of the head instead of the chin.
http://www.newtrix.ca/docs/ourproducts02.php

[leesuh]

Originally Posted by mydogspot

That surprises me, what brand is it? Also, have you seen the Newtrix version? Of any of the head collars, this is my favorite one. Not that I'm saying that you shoud change what you have but if you ever need a replacement for the one you have, have a look - It works on opposition reflex so the leash attaches to the back of the head instead of the chin.
http://www.newtrix.ca/docs/ourproducts02.php

It's a Gentle Leader. When you say that surprises you, do you mean that in a good way or bad? It does work with Domino, I think mainly because it forces her attention back on me.

She definitely doesn't fold but she does try to paw at it sometimes (or rub her face on her sister or me - annoying) but it's not too often and we're working on it.

Besides that Newtrix collar looking complicated to put on it looks like it's more comfortable for the dog. Does it work as well with it hooking in the back like that?

[French Ring]

Since you said that your dog is motivated with food, why don't you start teaching him to heel first? In order to teach him to heel, you will need to start somewhere with no distract. First I start with my bedroom then the backyard, then the living room, then family room, then front yard, then down the street, and then to the park where there's many people are around.

If I have a dog that pulls, I use a clicker to get what I want then I reward the dog with food, praise, or toy. All dogs I have taught were on their flat collar with a leash. I do find prong collar to be useful in training, but there is other way to teach the dog not to pull. If you want a faster result, you probably will use it with a prong collar.

When you use a prong collar on the dog, please remember to keep the leash loose and relax. When the dog is pulling or walking past your side, you jerk the leash and be sure to keep the leash loose again. If you don't do that, the prong collar no longer work. I have seen people using a prong collar in the wrong way and their dogs keep pulling them. The prong collar is supposed to held right behind the dog's ears. If it kept falling to the lower neck, then the collar is way too lose. It is not supposed to move down so you need to remove a few chips from the prong collar to make it more tight.


An example of how to teach your dog to heel.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wOue4nJEQmw

[leesuh]

Originally Posted by French Ring

Since you said that your dog is motivated with food, why don't you start teaching him to heel first? In order to teach him to heel, you will need to start somewhere with no distract. First I start with my bedroom then the backyard, then the living room, then family room, then front yard, then down the street, and then to the park where there's many people are around.

If I have a dog that pulls, I use a clicker to get what I want then I reward the dog with food, praise, or toy. All dogs I have taught were on their flat collar with a leash. I do find prong collar to be useful in training, but there is other way to teach the dog not to pull. If you want a faster result, you probably will use it with a prong collar.

I am working on heel with her but I need something to help with her until she's got it so that I can still take her out for walks and to go out somewhere. I don't want to use the head collar (or prong) forever.

Thanks for the info.

[mydogspot]

Originally Posted by leesuh

It's a Gentle Leader. When you say that surprises you, do you mean that in a good way or bad? It does work with Domino, I think mainly because it forces her attention back on me.

It surprises me because most trainers and I believe another manufacturer as well is very clear about the dangers of leash corrections using a head collar. This is due to the point of connection and risk of injury to the cervical spine. Having said that though, all 'corrections' are not created equal. While some may be very harsh and risky, yours may be simply attention getting and quite benign.

She definitely doesn't fold but she does try to paw at it sometimes (or rub her face on her sister or me - annoying) but it's not too often and we're working on it.

Besides that Newtrix collar looking complicated to put on it looks like it's more comfortable for the dog. Does it work as well with it hooking in the back like that?

You're so right, the newtrix is absolutely more complicated to put on. It's a major drawback of this collar but it does work much better than the more typical chin attachment brands. It provides more control and comfort as well as being less likely to cause injury in the event of an accidental cloths lining or harsh correction.

[leesuh]

Originally Posted by mydogspot

It surprises me because most trainers and I believe another manufacturer as well is very clear about the dangers of leash corrections using a head collar. This is due to the point of connection and risk of injury to the cervical spine. Having said that though, all 'corrections' are not created equal. While some may be very harsh and risky, yours may be simply attention getting and quite benign.

I keep them very benign, I wouldn't want to hurt the little stinker.

Originally Posted by mydogspot

You're so right, the newtrix is absolutely more complicated to put on. It's a major drawback of this collar but it does work much better than the more typical chin attachment brands. It provides more control and comfort as well as being less likely to cause injury in the event of an accidental cloths lining or harsh correction.

Very cool, I may look into getting one.