[puppy]

I am so very confused - someone dropped off a dog at my house a few months ago - we believe he is part belgian malinwois - so he is very lively and extremely protective

i have had 7 obedience classes - he is getting better

however he snapped at her husband and we got a consultation from a more
experienced trainer - that's fine but i have now read about the neck jerks

she is set on using a choke collar - the links are about two inches in length

she is a strong woman -- i am afraid for his safety

but is she trained enough not to hurt his neck

i am a pansy i suppose - but folks, jerking any animal's neck has to hurt, has to cause damage ---

the dog is 55 pounds - only about a year old

he has issues -- nipping at heels, wants to play all the time, i am worn out keeping him occupied and i do want to keep him

what should i do??

do they really have serious trachea, neck, etc problems??

his collar of hair is very thick

what should i do?

[Aussiefan]

It all depends on the dog, a chain collar can be a great tool if used correctly for the right dog. If the dog is very wild and wanting to pull everywhere i would be more inclinded to use a pinch collar. I have seen dogs with collapsed trachea's because of regular flat collars and constant pulling, but not from training collars, though it could certainly happen with any collar that is around the neck if not used correctly. I am a big fan of the pinch collar for bigger dogs that need that little extra attention getting.

I personally have always used a chain collar when training all of my dogs over the years, but i have a great deal of experience with them, you need to really have the correcting technique down well. There is also a right and wrong way to put the collar on. If its upside down, it won't release and is a very common mistake. I'm not against any training collar if used correctly, on the dog its most needed for.

[puppy]

thanks - the trainer used the pinch collar and his yelp was unnerving - i almost cried it was so loud - he is not wild - he does walk beside me most of the time - he is young and obvioulsy likes to sniff around -and i let him from time to time -i just wish i had a magic wand -i may reconsider - and ask the trainer to assure me she and i are using it properly - thanks

[TooneyDogs]

Used properly, there should never be any damage. In fact, the really knowledgeable handlers make more use of the clicking of the links to shape the correct behaviors than the physical jerks. I would be more inclined however, to go with the pinch collar. Neither of these tools should be used in a heavy handed manner.

[Aussiefan]

If the dog is a bit "soft" with the metal pinch, i would give the plastic pinch collar a try.

[Inga]

What are this trainers qualifications? Have you asked for references? I guess I would. However, using a pinch collar is much better then a choke in my opinion. Less chance of damaging the neck. Some dogs are more verbal then others as well. If he is not learning from what she is doing and she just keeps correcting without direction I would be looking for a different trainer. The idea is to direct "teach" a behavior not jerk until the dog suddenly does what you want. Does this trainer have experience with dogs that have bitten?

[wvasko]

Ditto on the prong over choke, The yelp while sounding bad, may be a yelp of indignation.

[SMoore]

If the dog has never had a pinch collar correction before he could have just been startled rather than actually hurt. When I first put a pinch on my shepherd and she lunged she wined but then she would pull just as hard once in awhile and self correct and she didn't whine at all.

[Elana55]

Any tool in the wrong hands or used incorrectly can be damaging at the worst or ineffective at best.

My first Positive Reinforcement obedience class had three dogs in Prong Collars. The instructor likened the prong collars to being Power Steering on the dogs they were used on.

They were put on these dogs foor safety reasons as well (big strong dogs that pulled and owners not matched physically to the dogs).

In the end, those dogs were just as successful in the class as the other dogs not in prongs.

An alternative to the Prong is a Martingale (limited slip collar) with a chain for the part that slides and tightens the collar.

Once you have the dog under control and focusing on you and not pulling, the prong collar may not be necessary.

[blackrose]

I've used both prong and slip collars on my different dogs, as well as not using either. If you know what you are doing and you have a dog that is mentally compatable with the training collar they are fine.

From what I understand, a slip collar with larger links in it is actually more gentle (?) than a fine chain. It also makes more noise, which is part of the warning/correction to the dog.

The idea is to direct "teach" a behavior not jerk until the dog suddenly does what you want.

This is exactly it. I have only corrected my dogs when they understand the command, they just choose not to follow it. They are rewarded when the comply, corrected when they don't. I think the only time I correct without a dog knowing a command is to break off their concentration on an object/dog/person. Then it is just a strong enough correction to grab their attention and that is followed by a command (sit, down, leave it, etc).

Our "puppy counseler" from when we were puppy raising Sadie thought that we should be much more firm with her using her slip collar. Sadie was a puller and silly me, I thought I would train her my way, as I knew her the best, using rewards and a gentle leader. The trainer grabbed Sadie away from me and proceeded to give her the harshest jerks on that slip collar I've ever seen ever time Sadie took one step out of heel position. She was contantly holloring, "Heel!" and poor Sadie was so confused. She was wagging her tail submissively and was hunkered down but that lady kept holloring and jerking her. God, that made me so mad. Sadie had no idea what that woman wanted and was trying to appease her but she just kept correction away.
I never used a slip collar on Sadie for training purposes and guess what - she's now a Guide dog.

[puppy]

thanks for all you thoughts

i think with the prong collar going on the first time -- she failed to warn me he would yelp so pitifully -- she has a lot of experience - where she failed me, i think, is to alert me to what it was, how it worked and why it worked

the dog weighs over 50 pounds

i know the prong collar gets good reviews --- but it just did not appeal to me

i have since worked with another trainer, who is a friend of hers with more than 25 years experience --- we moved up to a choke collar with longer links - i feel the "sound" of the collar is working

i just can't help but feel all those jerks hurt and harm ---- i know there are proven methods etc etc --- i talked at length with both trainers to make sure they understood my concerns -- and i asked for help making sure i did not harm his neck, trachea, etc

i sincerely appreciate your comments

[Chris_Texas]

Prong collars are great as they minimize the risk to the dog while offering fantastic control.

[K9 Conversation]

Nice thing about the prong is that you can also flip it over when you don't need it.

[TooneyDogs]

Originally Posted by K9 Conversation

Nice thing about the prong is that you can also flip it over when you don't need it.

And, you can wear it on your left leg if necessary.