[Sar05]

To my fellow trainers:
Please read the whole thing. I know it's long, but I despertly need your help.


(I copied this from an email I sent to my team, so if you dont understand something please ask.)

Cash - 5 year old neutered Pit Bull Terrier
Radar - 2.5 intact male German Sheperd - Certifed Search and Rescue dog (live only), learning narcotics, extreme high drive! Intact because of the chance he may loose drive from the procedure, and the small fact I signed a contract with the breeder....:-/.

I have had Cash since he was 12 weeks and radar since he was 8 weeks. They've lived together from day one and have only had two fights. One major, one minor.

Cash is great with other dogs, and radar is ok as long as there are no toys around. Both are extremely great with people.


About 4 weeks ago Cash and Radar got in a big fight over the tennis ball. They'd been getting along fine up until that point so I thought nothing of it to let them run in the acre park together. The fight lasted about 1 minute and by the time it was over with Radar had 5 puncture wounds and couldn't walk on his back leg and Cash had a few scratches. The last time they got in a fight was about 9 months ago and Radar won. They were both fine and got along with each other the very next day. This time is different. Cash really beat up Radar and caused the issue I am having now.

Like I said it's been almost 4 weeks and I cant even put the two dogs in the same room together. I have tried walking them on either side of me on leash and Radar is either growling the whole time or walking kind of slouched like and extremely nervous. I have tried lots of praise and clicker -(no treats because they'd fight over that) when Radar is fine around Cash, and I have tried compulsion training, something I dont really have to do often with either dog. I have yet to see progress with ANY of it.

I've been out of town for a week and figured since they hadn't seen each other during that time maybe it'll be over with. Just tonight radar walked in the kitchen and cash walked by the door and he bucked up and started growling and walking towards cash. Cash doesn't seem to be the one who starts it, and actually Shannon (another trainer of many years) suggested it's probably more of Radar being "fear aggressive" then dominant.

Its not fair for me to keep one outside and the other in or one in the kennel and the other out, but as long as this goes on it's gotta be that way. I really need any advice from the team on what I should do to help them get along better. I don't need them to sleep next to each other in the same bed or anything, just back to the way things used to be.

I don't think neutering Radar would help at this point. I think it's too late.

If I cant better this issue Radar's got to go. It's a danger for my daughter - not to mention the new baby - if they get into another fight around them. Ever since this has happened Radar's personality has changed around me. He's body language is different and he wont come anywhere in the house if he knows Cash has been there. He has started getting weird around Kaylin (my 3 year old daughter) - not aggressive or anything, but not wanting her to pet him like he used to. He used to run up to her and kiss her in the face, now he avoids her. Like I said this all happened after that fight.

I am at a loss and do not want to loose this great dog that is capable of so much. His ball drive has not diminished and his willing to work is still there.
He's even learning narcotics when I can work him around it, and he loves it! - Hell, he even alerted on an employees car at work awhile back, lol.

Is he acting different because I am pregnant?

Is he trying to claim back his role as alpha with Cash since he lost the last battle?

Or is it just fear because he knows Cash can kill him if need be?

Thanks to everyone who has any advice in advance!

[RonE]

figured since they hadn't seen each other during that time maybe it'll be over with.

I believe that dogs have a scent memory of every dog they've ever meant and can remember, years later, whether they get along well or not.

I don't think neutering Radar would help at this point. I think it's too late.

Actually, since you're asking for opinions, I think it may very well help. I personally owned a neutered male who would bully intact males, including a Bernese Mountain dog that he saw nearly every day. After the Bernese was neutered (rather late in life) they became best buds.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by RonE

I believe that dogs have a scent memory of every dog they've ever meant and can remember, years later, whether they get along well or not.



Actually, since you're asking for opinions, I think it may very well help. I personally owned a neutered male who would bully intact males, including a Bernese Mountain dog that he saw nearly every day. After the Bernese was neutered (rather late in life) they became best buds.

Neutering of the dog may not help but it should not hurt. Worth a shot if it means there's a chance you can keep family intact. I personally knew of a female GSP national field champion that had to be spayed, (health problems) that went on to win many trials. I've also hunted over dogs that were fixed with no problems. Short term definitely keep one dog outside or separated as best you can. It's choices in life make everything interesting. May have to sell the Radar dog or back to breeder etc because of purchase contract. Please remember that none of this may help your particular dog, whether it's RonE's dog or my experiences with dog's I have known. Your dog is totally different, what works for some dogs does not work for all. One other little tidbit is that a lot of working dogs (Radar type) have been kept in outside runs all their lives with no apparent harm. Is it the best answer, probably not but it does work.

[shewolf4]

I agree with the neutering, but you mentioned that you are pregnant- that may very well have something to do with it. I had a GSD that was great around other dogs until one day where no other dog was allowed to come closer then about 8 feet to me- she knew I was pregnant before I did once I had the baby, she was protective of the baby, and I was "allowed" to move about as before- quite interesting and one of the best dogs that ever came to our family

[rvamutt]

Get rid of Radar. Thats the only sure fire solution I can suggest. You have two male dogs in the house, each one thinks he's a bad ***. If you keep them together then there is a high chance of another fight occuring in the future and you don't seem willing to deal with that.

Also you should never be using your clicker without some kind of reward and praise doesn't usually cut it.

[5dogmom]

My male dogs did this for three weeks they were fighting over any little thing. I do not know to this day what started it and what stopped it. When they did fight I would break it up and put both into the submissive possition like on The Dog Whisperer. After the first time I was nervous around the two of them this could have made it happen, I don't know. When I started to calm down about the whole situation it stopped. Are you in an area that has a trainer that deals with aggression. Maybe that would help. I know how you are feeling right now because I thought my two dogs were never going to quit. Then once I calmed down they seemed to calm down.
I have three males in the house including an unaltered male and two altered males. I was warned when I got TY that usually after two years old they show aggression to other males in the house. Thank goodness they stopped and are back to normal. They eat together, chew bones side by side, pass toys around, maybe this is just some sort of issue that we can not see. Maybe it will resolve after the baby is born. Consulting with a trainer or some other help maybe a good alternative. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Sar05]

Originally Posted by rvamutt

Get rid of Radar. Thats the only sure fire solution I can suggest. You have two male dogs in the house, each one thinks he's a bad ***. If you keep them together then there is a high chance of another fight occuring in the future and you don't seem willing to deal with that.

Also you should never be using your clicker without some kind of reward and praise doesn't usually cut it.

Thank you for the advice.

Just so you know, I was using a reward when clicking - Pet and Praise. I tried the treats out and Cash would come towards the treats I would hand to Radar but seem to stay put when I would pet radar and scratch under his belly. I've been training for 6 years - which I know isn't a long time and I've still got a lot to learn, however I do know a little about dog behavior and I've tried everything I know to do. I may not have explained it in detail through the post, but I have tried what I know.

I never had a problem dealing with the fact that 2 males living in a house together may have issues and an occasional fight. However, now that the issue is taking place in my home and I've got a new baby on the way along with a three year old, no I am not willing to put up with any fights.

I've fostered pit bulls for many years and understand the dog on dog aggressive behavior. I've helped many dogs get over it with different techniques and a few of my placements are now living in multi-dog homes. I wouldn't be asking for help and advice from complete strangers if I didn't care and didn't know what else to do.

Neutering may help, yes, but if anyone knows of "training" techniques I can try, it be at all helpful. If I don’t see progress with all that I am doing then neutering will be my last option. I am going to try something called cooperative feeding, where I basically shift my attention to the aggressor (cash) not the aggressee (radar).

Thanks again for the serious answers and I apologize if I seem rude. I am at a loss and although people on here don’t know me, I don’t want to be looked at as some Jane Doe who doesn't know anything about dogs and their behavior.

Originally Posted by 5dogmom

My male dogs did this for three weeks they were fighting over any little thing. I do not know to this day what started it and what stopped it. When they did fight I would break it up and put both into the submissive possition like on The Dog Whisperer. After the first time I was nervous around the two of them this could have made it happen, I don't know. When I started to calm down about the whole situation it stopped. Are you in an area that has a trainer that deals with aggression. Maybe that would help. I know how you are feeling right now because I thought my two dogs were never going to quit. Then once I calmed down they seemed to calm down.
I have three males in the house including an unaltered male and two altered males. I was warned when I got TY that usually after two years old they show aggression to other males in the house. Thank goodness they stopped and are back to normal. They eat together, chew bones side by side, pass toys around, maybe this is just some sort of issue that we can not see. Maybe it will resolve after the baby is born. Consulting with a trainer or some other help maybe a good alternative. Good luck and keep us posted.

Thank you very much for your suggestion of calming down. Perhaps meeting with a trainer with much more experiance then me would be an ideal thing to do.

I also watch the Dog whisperer and tried the "alpha role" with the two of them when I see something is aboutt o happen. While Radar is being held down by me his bearing teeth and eyeing cash like nothing is even happening.

[rvamutt]

The alpha role is a myth. The only reason trainers use it is that it communicates to dogs in "canine language" that they are dominant. The truth is dogs (and wolves) never, ever do this to each other. A "dominant" canine never uses force to make another submit. There is no reason to get physical with your dog unless you want to get bit.

How many SAR cases has your dog been on? How often does he get called out? Many people with high drive working dogs have to separate them in the home for their entire life. Is Radar a pet dog that works (in which case this may not be appropriate) or a working dog? My next dog will be a working dog and will spend nights in her crate, will only ever interact with my current dog in my presence while wearing a drag leash, and will live a happy and full life. To me it doesn't seem like a big deal to seperate.

[Dogstar]

I actually think that if you want to keep both dogs, you need to be working with a behaviorist NOW- not later, not as your 'next option'. Somebody reputable, well-educated, and LOCAL- who can actually see the situation and deal with it in person.

Managemetn is going to be key. Keeping one dog crated and the other dog loose and rotating is, IMO, the best option until you can FIND a behaviorist who suits. I *would* go ahead and neuter Radar. At the very least, you need to make sure that the dog aggression is not perpetuated, and strongly suspect it'd help.

[Annamarie]

what's the reason for keeping the dogs intact to begin with? if you don't plan on breeding (and i would never suggest breeding an aggressive personality no matter how great his lines are) then neutering is the best solution. you might be surprised at the difference it makes.

i also second hiring a behaviorist. if that fails, then i would get rid of one or both dogs. personally, i would never have a dog that showed aggressiveness around my children on the off chance that my kid could be caught in the middle of it one day.

[Elana55]

I suggest you also get a copy of this book:

FIGHT! A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO THE TREATMENT OF DOG-DOG AGGRESSION by Jean Donaldson

It may prove very beneificial. Holding a dog down in a submissive role is a good way for YOU to get bitten. What works for the Dog Whisperer may backfire badly on you. There is a disclaimer on that program for a reason. I recommend you cease this behavior. It isn't working anyway. You need to think differently and try something else. Keeping them separate is certainly the best at this time.

I have often wondered, when dealing with a fractious colt or male dog, if you could just EXPLAIN to them what is about to happen to them at the hands of a veterinarian, if they wouldn't shape up and fly right...

I haven't figured that one out yet, but I have wondered!

Originally Posted by Sar05

Just so you know, I was using a reward when clicking - Pet and Praise.

It is not enough. www.clickertraining.com

Originally Posted by Sar05

I've been training for 6 years - which I know isn't a long time and I've still got a lot to learn,

Yes, I agree because this statement below:

Originally Posted by Sar05

however I do know a little about dog behavior and I've tried everything I know to do. I may not have explained it in detail through the post, but I have tried what I know.

And this statement:

Originally Posted by Sar05

Thanks again for the serious answers and I apologize if I seem rude. I am at a loss and although people on here don’t know me, I don’t want to be looked at as some Jane Doe who doesn't know anything about dogs and their behavior.

Conflict greatly with this statement

Originally Posted by Sar05

I also watch the Dog whisperer and tried the "alpha role" with the two of them when I see something is aboutt o happen. While Radar is being held down by me his bearing teeth and eyeing cash like nothing is even happening.

I learn all my best things from TV.....
I mean.. I saw it on TV so it MUST be right?

Please get someone in who knows what they are really doing or rehome one of these dogs b4 someone gets hurt... them, you or your child.

[JackiesZoo]

Originally Posted by rvamutt

The alpha role is a myth. The only reason trainers use it is that it communicates to dogs in "canine language" that they are dominant. The truth is dogs (and wolves) never, ever do this to each other. A "dominant" canine never uses force to make another submit. There is no reason to get physical with your dog unless you want to get bit.

Is this really a myth? Though they are a lot smaller I have seen my own dogs doing this. When Ash is doing something that baby doesn't like, she pins him and holds him down till he is calmer. Doesn't last long and they don't bite each other, but it does happen. Not saying that anyone who is not experienced should be trying this method...only stating that I have seen this behavior among dogs.

Sar05 I'm sorry about what you are going through. I must admit that I am thinking like the others. I would get him neutered and find a behavior specialist to work with you and the dogs. I do see the big possibility of him reacting to your pregnancy, amazing but true.

Good luck to you and yours.

[Sar05]

Originally Posted by rvamutt

The alpha role is a myth. The only reason trainers use it is that it communicates to dogs in "canine language" that they are dominant. The truth is dogs (and wolves) never, ever do this to each other. A "dominant" canine never uses force to make another submit. There is no reason to get physical with your dog unless you want to get bit.

How many SAR cases has your dog been on? How often does he get called out? Many people with high drive working dogs have to separate them in the home for their entire life. Is Radar a pet dog that works (in which case this may not be appropriate) or a working dog? My next dog will be a working dog and will spend nights in her crate, will only ever interact with my current dog in my presence while wearing a drag leash, and will live a happy and full life. To me it doesn't seem like a big deal to seperate.

Radar has been on 3 major calls - hurricane/tornado disaster, 1 elderly that walked away from her home and 2 missing child cases.

I am not having any issues with his working habits; he's really a great working dog. Right now he is either outside or in his crate while Cash is out and about in the house. When I want to get him out I lock cash up in the bedroom - so I am separating them. However, his personality is completely different in the house. It's as if he thinks Cash is going to come out of no where. Perhaps you are right and keeping him in the backyard (as long as he gets the adequate exercise) will not upset his world anymore then it already is. I just hate having to keep a dog outside, working or not. Since I am not having issues with him while we are out working, I didn't feel leaving him outside (or in a kennel) was necessary.

Originally Posted by Elana55

I suggest you also get a copy of this book:

FIGHT! A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO THE TREATMENT OF DOG-DOG AGGRESSION by Jean Donaldson

It may prove very beneificial. Holding a dog down in a submissive role is a good way for YOU to get bitten. What works for the Dog Whisperer may backfire badly on you. There is a disclaimer on that program for a reason. I recommend you cease this behavior. It isn't working anyway. You need to think differently and try something else. Keeping them separate is certainly the best at this time.

I have often wondered, when dealing with a fractious colt or male dog, if you could just EXPLAIN to them what is about to happen to them at the hands of a veterinarian, if they wouldn't shape up and fly right...

I haven't figured that one out yet, but I have wondered!



It is not enough. www.clickertraining.com



Yes, I agree because this statement below:



And this statement:



Conflict greatly with this statement



I learn all my best things from TV.....
I mean.. I saw it on TV so it MUST be right?

Please get someone in who knows what they are really doing or rehome one of these dogs b4 someone gets hurt... them, you or your child.

I've done the alpha role once after this last fight. Before I knew there was a bigger problem at hand, radar was lying in his bed and growling at Cash when he walked by. I realized at that very moment that method was not working and probably never would with my two dogs. So I stopped once he relaxed and will never do it again. That's how we learn - trial and error.

However, I do spend a lot of time in our doggie daycare program here at work where we have 50+ dogs a day. There are many times when Wolfgang (our male alpha on Wednesday’s) can walk over to any dog in the park and they naturally submit by rolling on their back or sitting and looking away. The only times he's actually rolled a dog and stood over it was when the other dog challenged Wolfgang. But I have seen it. You can read tons of books and watch tons of movies of what other trainer's think, but when you experience it 2-3 hours everyday you learn a lot more first hand.

I respect Ceaser Milan and I think some of his techniques are great. I also understand that most of his techniques are not for me to practice with. Perhaps I worded it wrong when I said I watch the dog whisperer and tried the alpha role. I wasn't implying I saw it on TV once and decided to give it a whirl.
I was not in the right frame of mind when I did it and learned first hand it doesn't work in just any situation, especially when your emotions are involved.
I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

[shewolf4]

To get rid of a dog because they are both male is just as smart as to get rid of one because they are both female I have at any given time a uneven balance of male or female dogs in this house- right now 4 females and one male- and even though there may be a initial problem and we have to work through this, its not really a reason to get rid of the dog. The problem is still there and should be addressed, so I would take it as a learning experience. As for the "alpha" role being a myth.... it may be called different things, I call it alpha, but the main point it - its my house, there are certain rules to follow and everyone learns real fast and follows along- makes for a peaceful house. Even newcomers catch on really quick. I would have them on a leash and see where and when it starts, , who starts on it, then go from there. Push buttons to determine what gets it started, then work with that particular problem. It could be anything, but to me it would be worth working with him- just MHO

[Sar05]

Originally Posted by shewolf4

To get rid of a dog because they are both male is just as smart as to get rid of one because they are both female I have at any given time a uneven balance of male or female dogs in this house- right now 4 females and one male- and even though there may be a initial problem and we have to work through this, its not really a reason to get rid of the dog. The problem is still there and should be addressed, so I would take it as a learning experience. As for the "alpha" role being a myth.... it may be called different things, I call it alpha, but the main point it - its my house, there are certain rules to follow and everyone learns real fast and follows along- makes for a peaceful house. Even newcomers catch on really quick. I would have them on a leash and see where and when it starts, , who starts on it, then go from there. Push buttons to determine what gets it started, then work with that particular problem. It could be anything, but to me it would be worth working with him- just MHO

This is great advice. Thank you! I am willing to work with him. I've put too many long days, too much money and way to much work in him to just give up. Plus, whether or not people agree with it, he IS part of the family. Working dog or not.

[Durbkat]

You should not preform any training techniques you see on the dog whisper, thats why at the beginning of every show it says "do not attempt to preform anything you see yourself.".

[Sar05]

Originally Posted by Durbkat

You should not preform any training techniques you see on the dog whisper, thats why at the beginning of every show it says "do not attempt to preform anything you see yourself.".

Yes, I know. Thank you.

[MyCharlie]

You have gotten great advice so far, and these guys know much more than I do, but has Radar been checked out by a vet since the most recent fight? You said that he couldn't walk on his back leg afterward, which may have indicated some sort of spinal cord injury at the time, which would lead me to the idea of possibly some sort of neurological damage? I know it's a stretch, but always a possiblity.

[rvamutt]

Originally Posted by Annamarie

what's the reason for keeping the dogs intact to begin with? if you don't plan on breeding (and i would never suggest breeding an aggressive personality no matter how great his lines are) then neutering is the best solution. you might be surprised at the difference it makes.

i also second hiring a behaviorist. if that fails, then i would get rid of one or both dogs. personally, i would never have a dog that showed aggressiveness around my children on the off chance that my kid could be caught in the middle of it one day.

The dog is intact because it is not a pet dog, it is a working dog. She doesn't want to risk the chance of losing any drive. It may happen, it may not. Is it worth it? Thats for her to decide. I don't like the idea of using surgery to fix a training issue until all other avenues have been tried.

[Sar05]

Originally Posted by rvamutt

The dog is intact because it is not a pet dog, it is a working dog. She doesn't want to risk the chance of losing any drive. It may happen, it may not. Is it worth it? Thats for her to decide. I don't like the idea of using surgery to fix a training issue until all other avenues have been tried.

I really appreciate that. I felt like I was being attacked because my dog was not neutered. I will actually try "training" him with all the advice that I have recieved and see how that works.