Your Opinions on Prong/Pinch Collars

Jr. Dog Expert · 03-08-2008, 07:13 PM

Hey Everyone, Its been a long time since I've had the chance to get on and do some posting, hopefully everyone is doing good.

Well lets see I have a questions for you guys, through some observations I notice many people don't like prong collars aka pinch collars, especially in the UK (seeing how they don't allow them there, i think).

What I wanted to know is what your opinion is on that training tool, do you find them "inhumane", or do you see them as effecient? Do you think there are better alternatives, if so which ones?

I'm really interested in hearing what you guys have to say about the subject.

lovemygreys · 03-08-2008, 07:40 PM

Prong collars are banned in the UK? Wow...

I think they are a tool that can be effective when used properly. Unfortunately, like many tools for working with dogs, too many people use them improperly or as a crutch to avoid training the dog.

eta: I've never used a prong collar and never had need to use one. Other methods of leash training a dog have worked for me and my dogs.

Here's an interesting article by a well respected trainer/behaviorist about prong collars. On a side note, she also has an article making the case against head halters, which are oh-so-popular these days. http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

Jr. Dog Expert · 03-08-2008, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

Prong collars are banned in the UK? Wow...

I think they are a tool that can be effective when used properly. Unfortunately, like many tools for working with dogs, too many people use them improperly or as a crutch to avoid training the dog.

eta: I've never used a prong collar and never had need to use one. Other methods of leash training a dog have worked for me and my dogs.

Here's an interesting article by a well respected trainer/behaviorist about prong collars. On a side note, she also has an article making the case against head halters, which are oh-so-popular these days. http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html

Yeah Prong Collar aren't allowed in the UK, along with Pitbulls, makes me mad, but w/e.

briteday · 03-08-2008, 08:01 PM

I have used a prong collar on a dog many years ago. She was aussie shepherd/ whippet (kinda looking like a short haired aussie with all the exuberance of both breeds!) and could not learn to walk properly on a leash. However I was much less experienced with training dogs back then as well. A friend loaned me a prong collar telling me to think about it since I was very hesitant. But the dog was 4 years old and I could not walk her by myself as she would drag me down the gravel road.

I used the prong collar on my dog for the first 1/4 mile of the walk. She immediately complied, I replaced the prong collar with her regular buckle collar, forgot to put attach the leash, and she remained heeling at my side from that moment on, forever, never even needing a leash again.

Again, only on the right dog, only as a last resort, only after being trained on the proper way to use it.

rvamutt · 03-08-2008, 08:25 PM

Prongs can be a very effective way of training a dog to walk nicely, among other things. They need to be fitted correctly, they need to be used appropriately, and whoever has them needs to set a criteria and training plan.

I would much rather see a dog on a pinch than a choke chain.

sillylilykitty · 03-08-2008, 08:53 PM

I think it is a training tool that if used properly is a good tool to use. But as one of the last resorts. I hope I never have to use one.

Darkmoon · 03-08-2008, 10:12 PM

It has been a life saver for me. My dog won't react to any collar except a pinch collar. He escaped 2 collars out on walks when we would pass other dogs, and a choke chain wouldn't get his attention at all. Pinch collars allow me to get his attention yet keep other dogs safe from him.

I tell you what though, some trainers are SO against pinch collars they will scream at you for 20 mins straight about you using one *rolls eyes*

As long as it is used properly, then it is a great tool. I wouldn't have been able to do as much training with my dog with out one.

bnwalker2 · 03-08-2008, 10:29 PM

I love prong collars. If used correctly, they are a wonderful tool.

lucygoose · 03-08-2008, 10:29 PM

Willie has made great progress with this collar and he is a small Papillon........It has made a big difference in his barking....The place we took him for obedience used them...I don't use it as much now, but I think, if used correctly, it is a good thing.....Good luck!

Curbside Prophet · 03-08-2008, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jr. Dog Expert

What I wanted to know is what your opinion is on that training tool, do you find them "inhumane", or do you see them as effecient? Do you think there are better alternatives, if so which ones?

It's a tool. You use it to complete the job, and then you put it away. This means actual training must occur, in addition to the aversion. Efficiency and the humane use of the tool go hand in hand. Without testing for efficiency, the constant use of aversion can and should be viewed as the borders of inhumane. Testing for efficiency is simple but no one does it, one week from the next, count your ratio of rewards to corrections. If that number does not go up over time, guess what? Your training isn't working, and it could be that the aversion from the collar is exacerbating the problem.

Alternatives really depend on the dog. Frankly, I'd rather spend my time searching for what motivates the dog, and once that's known, all other training becomes routine.

Jak · 03-08-2008, 11:21 PM

I use one with my Husky, and I love it. There was a really nice discussion on it awhile back on these forums. When I first saw one I was intimidated, but I did my research and learned that it's actually a valuable training aid. I think you should however exhaust your options first and try less abrasive tools before using a prong collar. I tried both the EZ Walk Harness and Gentle Leader Head Halter with no results over a adequate period of time, then decided to get the prong.

Aussiefan · 03-08-2008, 11:24 PM

A Pinch collar can be a wonderful training aid if used correctly.

SMoore · 03-09-2008, 12:10 AM

I think before anyone attempts to use/train with a prong collar they should either seek someone with knowledge of the tool or do some research on it.

I found this website to help the most when it comes to the prong collar:

http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

I don't agree with most of what is on his website or even his training methods but not many websites have detailed exactly how to put and use a prong collar which he does very well.

I also think buying a GOOD QUALITY prong collar is important. I have one I bought years ago at petsmart and one recently bought online from the same leerburg website. Herm Springer I think might be the brand name but anyhow someone informed me that there is a huge difference between the cheap petsmart prongs and the more expensive ones online. It makes a big difference. I don't have to use one often and rarely ever anymore. It served its purpose months ago but is no longer needed.

Like most have said I believe it's a useful tool for training but should not be used in place of training your dog.

K9 Conversation · 03-09-2008, 10:03 AM

A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.
The numbers seem to speak for themselves.

Inga · 03-09-2008, 10:17 AM

I actually like the use of a prong collar for some dogs. Like some have stated that it is just a tool and in the right hands it is an effective tool. The goal of course is to train the dog. That would mean the tool is for temporary use only. Some folks think it is a quick answer to the dog pulling and once they use the prong they never quit using the prong collar and claim they cannot control their dog without one. This means they are using it as a management Vs. a training tool and that I do not believe in.

Yes, there is a definite difference in quality between a Pet smart model and a Herm Sprenger collar. The cheap models will sometimes snap off at the most inopportune times. The tines come apart. This is not a good thing when you are using this for a dog that is otherwise not under your control. It is better to invest one time in good quality equipment. It is also a good idea to learn how to properly adjust them. I see about 1/2 the prong collar using population with them ill fit.

rvamutt · 03-09-2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K9 Conversation

A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma.
The numbers seem to speak for themselves.

Have you ever actually seen the raw results of this study? I buy the numbers because I've seen both prongs and chokes used and I've heard this study quoted many times but I've never actually seen the study, seen and abstract, or seen anything that proves it actually exists. If you know where I could fing this info could you point me in the right direction?

Curbside Prophet · 03-09-2008, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvamutt

I've never actually seen the study, seen and abstract, or seen anything that proves it actually exists. If you know where I could fing this info could you point me in the right direction?

I have a good idea why you haven't found anything...it's a myth, and now it's a tumult. Kind of like dominance theory, it's largely unproven, but many people believe it. How else are you going to sell a device that looks like a torture device?

shewolf4 · 03-09-2008, 08:27 PM

Its a tool and as with any tools its not what you use, but how you use it and most people dont know how to, but abuse it. Same for anything else you use. Dont abuse the dog, but learn how to use something correctly, teach right, then put it away

rvamutt · 03-09-2008, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

I have a good idea why you haven't found anything...it's a myth, and now it's a tumult. Kind of like dominance theory, it's largely unproven, but many people believe it. How else are you going to sell a device that looks like a torture device?

I assure you that I don't need to tell anyone that a prong is safer than a choke chain to get them to buy one. Not everyone wants to train their dog daily. Not everyone has the time (or timing) to train a dog to walk on a leash. Not everyone has the money for a class. Am I ok with that? No. Do I have a right to tell everyone that comes into the store that wants a quick fix to get rid of their dog? No. I had someone come into my store today with a dog that reacted violently to a gentle leader. I fitted a prong collar on the dog and after 90 seconds the dog was walking nice beside me, wagging his tail, taking treats, and helping me teach his owner to phase out the collar. With out this quick fix this person would not walk the dog, not take it out, and not give it the life it deserves.

The quoted study (whether make believe or not) is comparing two aversives. Would you argue that not only is a choke collar less efficient but is also inherently dangerous as compared to the prong?

Curbside Prophet · 03-09-2008, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvamutt

Would you argue that not is a choke collar less efficient but is also inherently dangerous as compared to the prong?

I would argue that no tool is efficient until proven so. I would also argue that all tools are inherently dangerous if misused. I would not even attempt to compare the tools because I don't know which dog we're talking about or who's using it...that IS the difference.