[Lonewolfblue]

Well, first I'm taking Betty over to see a trainer that is trained at working with dogs like Betty, and most aggressive dogs. This will be coming soon, within 2 weeks I'm hoping. Will be taking her to see Belynda Moore at Emerald Meadows Canine Training. Here's the link....

http://www.emk9.com/

Then, after Betty's completed her session, looks like we'll be taking in a registered female Border Collie. She's just under a year old, and is registered with the ABCA (American Border Collie Association). Here's what she said about her...

"Her temperament is wonderful! She is so smart. I'm sure I could work with her, but with a busy school schedule and not seeing any let up on that till mid June, I won't have any time. She needs work now. She gets along wonderfully with my other dogs. I have two adult Aussies, one adult Catahoula, and an 18 year old BC/Aussie cross and my son has an 8 year old pit. The all get along great. If anything, Nell is definitely not the alpha dog. One of my aussies puts her in her place regularly, but gently. She is submissive to her. As far as people, she loves everyone. She's very biddable and willing to do anything for you if she understands."

I was contacted about her by the breeder that she got the BC from. Here's what her breeder has told me....

"She is registered with the ABCA, American Border Collie Assoc. She is in Goldbar, which is near Monroe on Highway 2 this side of Steven's Pass. Mary said she'd like $400 for her, but I'd offer her less and she what she says. Nell is a daughter of my Zoe from her last litter. Her father is Rojo. She was the only black and white in that litter. She is beautiful and reminds me very much of her mother. Her eyes are so beautiful and show so much intelligence."

Then, when I actually got in contact with the owner, here's what she said was the reason she's thinking on rehoming Nell...

"Thanks for emailing. I just have to do some serious thinking in the next couple days. I've been thinking about it for a while now. Today, I observed Nell creeping around the truck parked by the barn several times to try to get closer to my baby goats. Since she killed a couple of my chickens (now she knows that isn't ok, but haven't had any chickens loose to be sure), I'm very worried I"m going to get distracted and she's going to grab one of my $300 show baby goats. It would be a huge loss for me and a tradgedy. That is why I"m thinking it might be best for her to be with someone who has no livestock or wants her to work their sheep. She is a wonderful dog, so biddible. She'd do anything for me but I"m afraid her instinct might take over briefly enough for her to make a big mistake."

Then I got an email from her this morning, here's what she had to say....

"She's one of the prettiest Heeler's (Betty) I've ever seen. My friend has a red heeler, he's a special boy. Sounds like you live in a paradise ). I love it over there, just can't bring myself to move away from my kids, even tho they're grown. I slept on it and I'm leaning towards placing her with you. I need to talk to my family some more and a close friend who is my dog friend ). She might be upset at me, but my goats are so precious to me and I depend on kids to sell to be able to keep the rest."

So, any comments would be appreciated. Also, any comments on bringing the 2 dogs together would also be appreciated.

[rvamutt]

What are Betty's behavioral issues?

[pamperedpups]

It looks like a Cesar Millan spin off to me. Beyond claiming to work with dogs for X years, I see no credentials listed. I saw a lot of leash popping, yanking, pulling, unfocused, scared, confused dogs and forced submission. It seemed more barbaric than "natural" to me...

That said, our state is home to many excellent trainers. If your dog has some serious behavioral issues you need to work out, I suggest you contact a qualified behaviorist and go from there. You might find that you have a long road ahead of you before it's time to bring another pup home. Beware: "Dog Psychology" is just a fad term, and really means nothing. If it's just basic training you require, I recommend going to a certified trainer who uses methods based in positive reinforcement. If you bring that pup home and she has been worked with using the methods I saw on that site, be prepared to do some serious retraining.

[SMoore]

I don't agree with most of the stuff on this website but he does have some very good articles and this is one of them:

http://leerburg.com/introducingdogs.htm


I think it's a great careful and safe way of introducing dogs and avoiding possible dog fights that could scar a dog for life. I used this when introducing my new dog to my other two dogs and currently they are all asleep in my living room together.

[pamperedpups]

I have introduced many dogs without needing to be their "pack leader." Even when I thought that's what I was trying to accomplish, I believe the dogs knew better and now so do I. The alpha theory has actually been disproven in more recent scientific studies that were not centered around wolves in unnatural situations. Dominating our dogs is overrated and unnecessary. Check out this article: http://baywoof.com/2008mar_alpha.html and also take a look at http://www.nonlineardogs.com

I recommend you look into books like Control Unleashed, Click to Calm and others along those lines.

[rvamutt]

I just watched the videos on the trainer's site. Disgusting. I find any training in which someone forces a dog to submit to be beyond repulsive. There are much easier ways to get a dog to give up resources than to have a stranger come in to your home and physically fight yur dog in to a state of helplessness.

[rvamutt]

I'm still curious as how lonebluewolf is handling this and what issues her first dog had...?

[Lonewolfblue]

Not her, him, lol. I'm a guy, lol. I adopted Betty from a humane society, and didn't know she had issues til after I got her home. This is what I've been working on now for a little over 6 months now. Was going really slow in the winter, as there was too much snow and ice to really go for our walks safely, as I've fallen a couple times. But now that the snow is gone, we go out every single day, and now that it's going to be light after I get off work once again, we'll be working with her every day, morning and evening.

To cut it short, what I initially thought it was was aggression towards other dogs. Then over the winter I've been working at narrowing it down, that it's only when on leash. As for being me, I don't think it's that completely, but it could play some roll in it, as she still does it even with a friend taking her out on walks as well, even on the first day.

But to narrow it down some more, she reacts to smaller dogs much, much more than larger dogs when on leash. We would play the Look At That game down at the park, and when larger dogs would go by, she would look at them, then look at me like, Did You See Me Look At That Dog?. Then I would praise and give her treats for sitting there and not lunging. But if a small dog goes by, there's no keeping her sitting at all. Another thing is poodles. She's got the worst reaction to poodles. Doesn't matter how big or small. Even the big black poodle that we see at the park on occasion, her reaction is just as bad as the small toy poodles we see.

As for off-leash, she get's along with a few dogs. I really haven't let her out loose much, as I don't want to rush into anything. But at the park there's a house along the edge of the ball fields where there's a miniature pincher. When Betty is off leash, and we go by there, they play with each other with the chain link fence in between them. She's also done it with a different chiwawa recently. And she's also got along with a couple german shepherds, an American Eskimo Dog, a black lab, and an elderly St. Bernard. And amazingly enough, the black lab and the St. Bernard were both when Betty was on leash.

Here's the links you can check out...

http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-train...ool-betty.html (Began school with Betty....)

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-d...rning-dog.html (Returning a dog.....)

Well, Betty will be going for some new training on the 17th with people that deal with dogs that have issues. I've kept them updated on Betty's progress here, and it sounds like it will only be a 1 day session. I think what they are planning is to let Betty go in with their other dogs that they use for training, and when she becomes comfortable with them, we will be working on leash work with her around other dogs and with other dogs. We will also be doing some long-line work as well. And from what I gather, it could take an hour, or up to 6-7 hours. But in the end, they said I'll be walking with Betty and 4-5 other dogs leashes in my hands. So, hopefully it turns out to benefit Betty and me, mainly me. She told me that I'll leave with all the tools I need to be successful. And as for adding another dog, they told me that it not only would benefit Betty, but if I needed them to help in the introduction process, if the other people do decide to rehome the BC that I'm interested in, that they could come and help me. But they said I would have all the tools to do it on my own, but their doors are wide open if I needed the help. So, these are just things I'm looking forward to down the road.

Also, as for the training, they asked me to bring a couple of the collars that I regularly use, a 4ft and a 6ft leash, a long line, as well as all the treats I can possibly bring. They even wanted me to bring a bike, which I don't have and told them that's the only thing I can't bring. Most of the work will be based on rewarding, and corrections only come if they are even necessary. So, it sounds like it's not going to be pinning, leash popping, etc, etc, like many are seeming to think. I'll be updating this after the session to let everyone know how it all went, as to exactly what I learned and what we did, step by step.

[rvamutt]

I saw the video of the boxer and it were me I'd stay as far from that place as I could. Good luck though.

[Lonewolfblue]

Well, she's made her decision. She wants to rehome her with me. It's possible I'll be picking her up next Monday after Betty's session. If not then, then it will be the following weekend. Sounds like she just got in too deep with work, school, and too many dogs, as well as raising goats. Here was her email to me today....

"I"ve made the decision that I think it would be best for Nell as well as my farm to place her with you. I have 3 other dogs, the two aussies and one Catahoula who are great with the livestock and also a BC/Aussie cross who is 18 years old. I have my dogs for a long time usually as you can see ). Nell is crate trained, she sleeps in my bedroom at night and doesn't make a peep. She spends most of her other time outside as I am so busy with school. The 4 dogs, not the old one, spend the day in a roomy chainlink kennel when I'm gone and have run around time outside when I'm home. She has spent time in the house and never had an accident, but I haven't done seriious house training. I never had to with my other 3 dogs. As they grew, they just got used to going outside I guess. Never had a problem with any of them. She is current on shots except rabies. She needs her first rabies which is good for one year. When she is a year old in May, she will need a booster of the other yearly shot. I paid $450 for her a few months ago at about 4 months old. I'd be happy with $400 tho as I'm sure you may want to take her to the vet for a checkup and shots. She's a wonderful dog who needs someone to spend more quality time with her. With school and work, I never should have taken on another (. She learns VERY fast. She comes when called immediately. She knows what that'll do! means along with leave it and a grunt. Whichever of the three you choose to use, she respects them. Most of the time, she drops whatever she's doing and comes straight to me when I use that'll do command. If she thinks she's doing something I'd be mad at, she is hesitant. I know BCs are sensitive so I have NEVER been stern except with voice, except the time she killed my two chickens. I took her in the chicken pen, gave her a couple swats and sternly in a growl voice said no over and over. She is hesitant to even go near the chicken pen when I"m out there. She was 5 months old then. Now she will be 10 months old the 21st of March.

Let me know for sure if you would like to have her asap.

Thanks so much!! It sounds like she would have a wonderful home with you and Betty."

We are still negotiating the cost, so that's still up in the air. She'll definitely need some training, and I've already talked to my trainer here and we are first going to put her through Obedience school and CGC. Then either Rally or Agility.

[pamperedpups]

I urge you to take some time to really consider your options as making the wrong choice could be a major setback. Leash aggression is not uncommon, nor is it uncommon for a dog to be reactive towards certain breeds, sizes and/or colors of dogs. Truly helping a dog overcome these issues isn't going to happen in one session. I honestly don't see how flooding a dog by throwing it in with a bunch of other dogs or getting it to walk around with a few other dogs with the technique shown on the website using corrections "only if necessary" is going to help. When would correction be necessary? When the dog is unsure and trying to express that it needs space? Push a dog too far who has been corrected for showing signs of distress, take away their ability to take flight and you are only left with FIGHT...

Please read "Control Unleashed" before you take your dog anywhere:

http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB943

[Lonewolfblue]

I have the book Control Unleashed, and am almost done with it, only have about 25-30 more pages to go, and am going to re-read it. I've also got a few other books as well like When Pigs Fly by Jane Killion and Get Connected With Your Dog by Brenda Aloff, and several DVD's, including Cujo Meets Pavlov! by Kathy Sdao.

[pamperedpups]

Originally Posted by Lonewolfblue

I know BCs are sensitive so I have NEVER been stern except with voice, except the time she killed my two chickens. I took her in the chicken pen, gave her a couple swats and sternly in a growl voice said no over and over. She is hesitant to even go near the chicken pen when I"m out there.

Key words: When she's out there. In other words, the dog really doesn't understand that killing chickens isn't good, but she has learned that if she goes near an area when that human is present she might get hurt. I prefer to manage situations, setting my dogs up for success, focusing on what I want my dogs TO DO and making that far more rewarding than what I don't want them to do.

Hopefully this smart, sensitive dog won't pick up on Betty's insecurities and make them her own. I think it's great that you are planning for an active future for her.

*Edited to Add: You already have those materials? That's really good! Have you watched the videos on your trainer's website? I'm having trouble figuring out how you can read such awesome information on positive training and yet still want to take your dog to a place where leash popping, yanking, and forcibly taking a dog down is considered "Dog Psychology?"

[Lonewolfblue]

Originally Posted by pamperedpups

Key words: When she's out there. In other words, the dog really doesn't understand that killing chickens isn't good, but she has learned that if she goes near an area when that human is present she might get hurt. I prefer to manage situations, setting my dogs up for success, focusing on what I want my dogs TO DO and making that far more rewarding than what I don't want them to do.

Hopefully this smart, sensitive dog won't pick up on Betty's insecurities and make them her own. I think it's great that you are planning for an active future for her.

*Edited to Add: You already have those materials? That's really good! Have you watched the videos on your trainer's website? I'm having trouble figuring out how you can read such awesome information on positive training and yet still want to take your dog to a place where leash popping, yanking, and forcibly taking a dog down is considered "Dog Psychology?"

Yes, I do have all those materials and more, lol. It's a bad habit of mine to go to Dogwise, it's only about a half mile or a little more from my house, lol. Maybe I should become an investor there, LOL. But anyways, I did get ALOT of stuff from there, lol.

As for going to that trainer, my main purpose is it's something new, Betty's never been around a bunch of dogs that she can actually interact with on the same side of the fence, supervised. And I think that alone can be of some help with her issues. And it would be nice to see her walking on leash with other dogs beside her. It will also give me a better education on how to bring dogs together to meet and greet. I don't look at this as a quick fix either. Nothing is a quick fix. But it's just another stepping stone in the process.

As for training, I've talked with my trainer here today about her, and our first thing is going to be Obedience School, then CGC. We've also talked a bit about her Border Collie as well, and she's given me a run-down on what to expect as well. She's got a Sheltie and a Border Collie, and just recently picked up a Golden Retriever. Now the Sheltie and Golden are best of friends, her Border Collie on the other hand hasn't quite accepted him yet. But she's got lots of space, a large house, and an outdoor kennel as well. So she's able to keep them separated, and work with them daily. For me in my house, it's not a problem with 2 dogs either. But more than 2 might make things quite interesting, lol. But I don't plan on any more. Originally, I wanted 2 dogs, but after getting Betty, I wasn't able to get the 2nd. And Betty has come a long ways. She still needs more work, but with what I've talked to others about here, as well as the people at the humane society where I got Betty as well as the ACD Rescue in Spokane and another gal online I know that has several ACD's, they feel that getting another dog would actually help Betty, if done correctly. And with her getting along with several dogs now with a fence in between, I think it's time to move to no fence in between, another reason for going over to the coast.

Now for me, am I ready for all this? I'm actually looking forward to it. But they also know that when we do meet, and if the dogs just don't get along at all, we won't be taking her home. I let them know that this would be the only scenerio where we won't take her. But if the meet goes good, and they both get in the car and out of the car several times with no issues, we'll be headed for home as a bigger family.

[Lonewolfblue]

Well, we won't be getting the Border Collie. She's made the decision to keep her. It was tough on her 7 year old son that they were thinking of rehoming her, as she was the favorite dog. Also, her trainer also told her that the problems with her stocking the goats and killing chickens is just due to her being young and having no training at all, and that it can be trained out of her easily. So she's looking at beginning the training process, and doing herding trials, as there's a place near them that she's already taken her to for an instinct test, and she passed with flying colors. It was a really big decision for her, and I told her to take all the time she needs to think about it and to not feel rushed. So she decided to keep her.

[Lonewolfblue]

We just got back from Seattle tonight, it was actually south of Seattle and about 3.5 hours from my house. Took Betty to a session with a trainer over there who deals with dogs that have issues. Well, it went very well.

We started with taking Betty for a long walk. It was about a half mile down to the end of the road, and we ran part of it. Then we did the same coming back. When we got back, Betty was barely even winded, lol. So, because I didn't have a bike to bring, the trainer took out her secret weapon for tiring a dog out. It was a horse whip, lol. But not no regular horse whip, lol. This one had a plastic garbage bag tied to the end of it, lol. Betty went bonkers over it, lol. It was loud, fast, and Betty wanted it BAD, lol. It took about an hour and 45 minutes to tire her out, lol. And her tank still wasn't empty, but it was low enough to begin training, lol. Now I need to get a similar device for home, lol.

We first took one of the trainers female boxers out. Betty wanted at her. I had the boxer while the trainer had Betty. We were using a short leash with a martingale collar. And whenever Betty would lunge, she would lift up on Betty's head til she calmed down, and we walked more. We got to where they were walking side by side with no issues in about 15-20 minutes. Then it was lunch time, so we came back after lunch again.

After lunch, we worked again with the same boxer, this time I was handling Betty. It went pretty well, didn't have to correct her much. Then we went to the next step, to let the boxer sniff Betty. I had to correct her a couple times, but she calmed right back down, and was ok with the boxer sniffing her back side. Then we went to letting Betty sniff the boxers back side. All went perfect, Betty sniffed, then just layed down with her head turned to the side and tongue hanging out. Once we got to where we were comfortable with them sniffing the back ends, then we went to the mid-body and heads/noses. All went pretty well. Betty snipped once, but after a quick no by the trainer, she was fine. We let them do this sniffing for a while, and pretty soon Betty was good with the boxer.

Then we went to the next level, bringing out her other female boxer, lol. Now this was a challenge. Now to let you know, she uses both boxers whenever she works with dogs with issues, as these boxers could care less. They show no stress, and are completely relaxed. So it all started over again, lol. We went through all the same steps as above, but this time it went faster. We did the sniffing with both boxers as well, and got to the point where Betty was once again comfortable.

The next step was to put Betty on a 6ft leash instead of a 4ft, and since Betty's got a really good sit/down stay, the trainer had me put Betty into a sit, then extend the leash out the 6ft, and the trainer then walked the boxers over the leash. Betty was just fine with it, then when I said Come, she came to me for her reward, hot dogs. We did this several times.

The next step we did was heavy treats. We started feeding all 3 dogs sitting close by each other. Betty did fine. Then, when I was feeding Betty a handful of hot dog bits, one of the boxers decided to join. I almost froze, thinking Betty was going to do something. Well, she didn't, lol. I had Betty and both boxers eating out of my hand, lol. There were a couple times where we saw Betty do a lip curl, and we immediately corrected that with a stern NO. But after a couple minutes, they were all just fine, and Betty seemed much happier and would walk around the boxers and eat out of my hand with the boxers.

After we accomplished all this, then we went to the last stage, the long line. The trainer tied up the 2 boxers to a post and we had Betty on a long line. When we let the line out, we were expecting Betty to charge at the boxers. But Betty did the opposite, just wandered around, then walked up by the boxers and the trainer had me recall Betty. As soon as I said Betty, Come, she immediately turned and ran to me and sat in front of me. I never though that would have happened on the first try, lol. We thought we were going to have to give a little tug on the line to get her attention. But she was completely comfortable. Then we brought out the distraction. The 3rd dog. They had him out in the back yard behind the wire fence. It was a male German Shepherd that loved to bark loudly. Again, we thought we were going to have to correct Betty for running at him, but she slowly walked up near him, and as soon as I said Betty, Come, she came right to me. Even with the GSD making lots of noise, lol.

Overall we had a great time. Betty just needs to get over being so hyperactive and stressed. And I definitely know that this didn't fix her, but it's another piece of the puzzle, another step up the ladder. The trainer has also given me some good tools to work with as well. The only bad thing is that there's not tons of dogs here like there is over there. So being able to work with her is going to be a challenge. But it's not impossible. Let me know what you think. I think it's been a very productive day for the both of us. Still have a ways to go, but we are headed in the right direction. We have the tools she's taught me, as well as all the books I've been reading and DVD's I've been watching.

[poodleholic]

Well, it sounds like you've made up your mind, and will be bringing the new dog home.

My question to you is what is your plan?

Introducing a new dog to a current resident dog is one thing. Introducing a new dog to a home with a dog aggressive resident dog is quite another. What is your action plan for introducing them?

How do you plan to (gradually) integrate the new dog into the daily routine with Betty?

What is your setup for the new dog? How will you contain her?

[AmbientNight]

I hope everything goes good for you... I have a couple of suggestions if you will take them.

Make the first introduction in a neutral place. If your current little lady is not comfortable with the color leash then get her on a harness for their first meeting. Start with you walking your Betty and have someone else help you with walking the new dog at first behind you and Betty. Slowly work the new dog up along your side opposite from Betty until they are walking at the same distance. For the first week I wouldn't let them have any time with each other other then these walks. If you have a basement or other room in the house keep the new girl locked up in there. Take time to go in daily and socialize with the new dog allowing her scent to get onto your clothing then go give Betty her love so she can associate the scent of the new dog with positive effects. Hope this helps.

[Lonewolfblue]

Originally Posted by poodleholic

Well, it sounds like you've made up your mind, and will be bringing the new dog home.

My question to you is what is your plan?

Introducing a new dog to a current resident dog is one thing. Introducing a new dog to a home with a dog aggressive resident dog is quite another. What is your action plan for introducing them?

How do you plan to (gradually) integrate the new dog into the daily routine with Betty?

What is your setup for the new dog? How will you contain her?

When did I say were were bringing it home? Look at my last 2 posts. They decided to keep the Border Collie, so we aren't getting it.

As for getting a 2nd dog, yes, I am still looking, but not rushed. We have lots of time.

[golden&hovawart]

Good-luck with the new dog as yr decision has,already, been made!.
I truly hope that it works out well for the safety of both dogs!.
With yr dog being aggressive with other dogs and you bringing in, an adult dog of the same sex,is risky but I'm sure you're aware of that!.
For the 1st mths,I wouldn't leave them alone,just to be,on the safe side and take all toys and bones away to avoid any potential problems.I would also feed them,both,in separate rooms!.Do keep us posted,Laurie.