top left Dog Forums

Go Back   Puppy & Dog Forums > General Dog Forums > Dog Training Forum
Forum Rules | Become a Sponsor
DogForums.com Donates $200.00 to Dog Shelter!

Dog Training Forum Dog Training Forums - Do you go to dog training classes? Do you self-train your dog? Share with other readers what dog training techniques work for you.
Popular Threads: Dog peeing in Crate, Stop Puppy from Whining, Train Dog Greet Guests


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-11-2008, 11:19 AM   #1
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 340
tcasby is on a distinguished road
Remote collar training question

I really need a bullet proof recall.

I need her to not go trotting off after every jogger or mountain biker (she doesn't chase them, she simple joins them in their travels).

I need her not to visit every person or dog that comes into sight no matter how far away.

I need her to not take a dip in every muddy bog when the wind chill is around zero and we're miles from the car.

I need her to not play the "catch me if you can" when it comes time put the leash back on.

I have worked for months on the recall and other obedience commands. The problem is I'm simply not a very good trainer. Recall is great on a long lead with treat, but it sure doesn't translate to the situations I really need it.

Right now we take our hikes on a lead with a no-pull halter in areas where we meet many well behaved dogs off-leash.

I have now doubt with the help a trainer and remote collar I could have a bullet proof recall with the collar on.

The question is will the recall be retained when the collar is off?
tcasby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2008, 11:27 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Lonewolfblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Posts: 2,175
Lonewolfblue is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to Lonewolfblue
Re: Remote collar training question

It all depends on how you train for the recall. If you aren't sure on how to train with the E-Collar, I wouldn't even try. There's a pretty good DVD called Really Reliable Recall. Might check into that.
Lonewolfblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2008, 01:28 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northeastern US
Posts: 3,586
Elana55 will become famous soon enough
Re: Remote collar training question

You need to train, not punish, this dog. All those behaviors are outshoots of a lack of REALLY GOOD reward EVERY time the dog comes NO MATTER HOW MAD YOU ARE at him.

The Reall Reliable Recall book or video is EXCELLENT. Atka comes running for "come here" and comes flying for her Really Reliable Recall word, which is NOW.

So, going back to square one you can use a clicker of the word YES. Start by clicking or saying YES and then giving the dog a bit of food. for food use a hot dog.. cut it in quarters long way and then cross ways and you get about 40 treats. With the dog on a leash at home, say "YES" give a treat. do it 20 times.

Move away from the dog about 3 feet (at home where you are in a fenced yard or indoors) and if the dog looks at you, say "YES" and give a treat. Don't go to the dog.. dog had to come to you for a treat. If the dog does not move towards you, move in closer. If you have to go back next to her and do the "yes" and treat (yes or click will work) and do the 20 more yes's and treats, do it.

Eventually, as the dog comes to you for a tteat start to add the word you want to use for come here. I say just that... "come here." Keep the dog on a line or a leash everywhere she might disobey. Do not give the dog the opprtunity to fail or to make you angry.

With a few weeks of work, and NEVER doing something with the dog she won't like, she will start to come to you reliably.

The Really Reliable Recall is a different word and is used on those rare occaisions when you need to dog to come NO MATTER WHAT (like if she is headed for the busy hiway).

I posted this on two other threads on creating a really reliable recall for a poster who had a dog that took off whenever off leash. You may find this helpful.

Really Reliable Recall
I posted this in response to someone having difficulty getting their dog to come when called. You teach "come here" just like you teach a really reliable recall. I use a clicker and I recommend you give that a try (www.clickertraining.com). In the response belooe the dog had learned to ignore the command "come here."

I would suggest first and foremost to get this dog charged on a clicker. Use a food that he really cannot get enough of (tho as, mentioned before me, he may be more toy oriented so you can use a toy and a very short game of tug and the clicker instead).

Teach him something NOT "come here." (Fact is, I would not even use that word when you get to 'come here' since he has learned not to pay any attention to it when he is distracted). Teach him to look at your face.. and pay attention.. but do not start with a command. Instead, while in the house, every time he looks at you clcik and treat with various treats. Click and treat for just hanging out with you.

YOU have to be ther "best game in town" and that is easy at home or in the house where you are the ONLY game in town. Next, on leash, start adding distractions. If he starts to pay attention to other things and not want to hang out with you, go back the the earlier threshold and stay there for awhile before upping the distractions again.

The trick here is to BECOME the best game in Town no matter WHAT the distraction is. Would I use the snap or tug on his collar? I think, for this dog, it might prove to be counterproductive. Fact is, I am learning (and have learned) that aversives don't generally work. He understand that coming when called is what to do when he cannot get away but the minute he no longer HAS to come when called, he simply does NOT, which is often one of the signs that aversives have been used in training...

The dog thinks, "well, I will do it because I have no other choice and so I HAVE to" when he is in an place where he cannot run off. However, the minute he CAN run off he does because he no longer HAS to come when called and running off is self rewarding to the dog.. and a lot more fun than coming back on a recall.

The better way to get the dog to think is , "I am going to come to this person no matter what because I WANT to.." Getting him to WANT to be with you is the trick. You need to make coming to you the best thing he can do.. way better than running off.

I think that you need to teach this dog to respond to the clicker and then you need to try to put a Really Reliable Recall on him. I will tell you how I did that with my dog and you can try it with yours.

First of all, I used the clicker and my dog knew that EVERY time I clicked she would get a reward. Getting 'em clicker charged is essential. the reward was high end treats.. cooked liver and cut up hot dogs do it for my dog..

When I was out in the yard, if the dog looked at me I would click and she would come to me for the reward (no command is in this yet). It did not matter if she was 3 feet away or 30 feet away and she had no leash on her. I used a High End Treat (not a biscuit, but small, the half of a dime size, bits of cooked liver or hot dog or tiny pieces of cheese.. you know.. the stuff they would kill to get to eat!). I did not go to the dog. She was charged and she knew that the click meant I had a reward and it was really good. Only click once and timing is critical. If you clcik when she is looking away or moving away you have just indicated that is the desired behavior.

When, no matter where you are in a safe, fenced, place (b4 adding distractions), when that dog looks at you and reliably comes for the treat, add a word. I use the word "NOW!" but you can use anything.. "SOCKS!" will work too. Use the word after you click and before you treat. Pretty soon.. and it may take awhile, your dog will come for the word.. what ever it is. Don't forget to reward every time. NEVER ask the dog to come and then do anything but reward and praise. Never follow coming when called by anything unpleasant to the dog.

Next, choose another word and three times a day, at random intervals, using the clicker and reward method, use THAT word instead. It can be any word but I recommend it NOT be the word you are using right now.. you know.. the one that doesn't work. I would use the word "HEY!" or something that is used for no other behavior the dog does.

When the dog looks at you , click and say the NEW word as she is coming to you. When she gets to you, no matter what the circumstances, spend at least 30 seconds praising her and feeding her little pieces of the very highest end food you have.. I mean.. really praise her and pet her and tell her what a wonderful dog she is no matter how silly it makes YOU look. This is your really reliable recall word.

Three times a day you replace the standard come here command of NOW! with the other word HEY! and give her this really super dooper special reward. The clicker folks call it a "jack pot." I call it a gold mine for dogs. LOL The dog ought to eventually come running at your when you say this word (mine does.. I think she would go thru a wall of fire when I say her RRR word!).

Do this for three weeks.. again.. three times a day randomly every day for three weeks. This is a special word and is different than the standard come here word (NOW!) and you should see a different response. the Really Realiable Recall (RRR) should be really fast by this time and should get her attention NO MATTER WHAT.

All you are going to work on is the dog coming to you, and wanting to hang out with you. You are going to become the BEST GAME IN TOWN. Your dog ought to be looking at you and HOPING you will click that thing and/or say one of those words by the end of this time.

NOW add distractions (still in a safe enviromnment) and see what happens. If the dog still runs off, then go back and continue the work. Do the work on a long line where the distractions exist. Do not reel the dog in.. let coming to you be the dog's idea and then click, feed and praise. Clcik and feed and praise any time the dog looks at you.. and every time when in a distracting environment. Stick with the jack pots for the "Hey!" word and stick with the three times randomly (not all of those times need be at the distracting place). Also use the other word for recall that is still rewarded but not with a jack pot.

Eventually, you should be able to cut the Really Reliable Recall word down to three times a week (and you do it three times a week with a jack pot EVERY TIME for the rest of the dog's life). You may have to intermittently food or toy reward this dog for coming when called for the other word the rest of his life as well, since he has learned a behavior that is undesirable. Behavior is not static. Once learned it still need occaisional reinforcement.

Come back here and let us know how it goes with you.

If you need better instructions than the ones I have offered, put Karen Pryor or Clicker training or Really Reliabel Recall for dogs in a search engine and read about it there. Jean Donaldson has books that are excellent as well, and I would look at her book "Dogs are from Neptune" or her newer book, "The Culture Clash."

BTW, if your dog is smart enough to play catch me if you can. your dog is smart enough to know when she has the E collar on or not.. so it won't help long term IMO

Last edited by Elana55; 02-11-2008 at 01:30 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Elana55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2008, 01:51 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Shreveport, LA
Posts: 808
SMoore is on a distinguished road
Re: Remote collar training question

I think an e-collar can be useful in some situations and essential in other situations where it's impossible to train your dog with other means (hunting, police work, etc....)

I have a 7 month old GSD pup and her recall is pretty solid. I don't believe in a 100% recall but I would say hers is at least 90-95%. I did all my training with a 50ft line from Petco and raw venison treats that I made.

However, I do have friends that have used e-collars for your problem exactly and whenever they grab the e-collar to put it on their dogs the dogs run up to them all excited almost the same reaction I get from my dogs when I go to grab their leash or collars.

So, I think it is all in how the collar is used. I have an e-collar but I've honestly never had to use it.

I would suggest before even going outside to use it just practice putting on and off the collar and switching putting on and off their regular buckle collar. Basically to not make any one collar seem scary to the dog.

I would also suggest that if your dog just simple isn't coming to you when distracted by other dogs maybe make yourself more interesting. Make sure you have treats, watch your body language and act like you are the most interesting thing in the world, the center of your dogs universe.

I usually sound really excited and happy whenever i'm calling my dog to me like there isn't anything else in the world that is as interesting as coming to me that second.
SMoore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2008, 02:47 PM   #5
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 340
tcasby is on a distinguished road
Re: Remote collar training question

One of my problems is my dog considers me a complete and total bore. Couldn't care less when I come and go. Doesn't even look up when I come home. She is only interested in treats from me if she's hungry and nothing more interesting is around.

To her, everything is more interesting than me, even me with treats. She goes into paroxysms of joy when she sees one of my neighbors or any of the local kids. I'm talking off the wall bouncing, jumping, quaking with happiness.

My biggest problem with traditional training methods is I have zero confidence in my ability to be successful. I can't imagine he choosing to come to me over 2 kids and the dog 1/4 mile away.

What I can imagine is the annoying tickle (and that's what it is, I've felt it) of the e-collar snapping her attention away from the kids and the dog and her understanding that turning around and coming towards me will make it go away.
tcasby is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement
 
Advertisement
Sponsored links


To avoid seeing this ad in our forum please register at DogForums.com

By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features.
Old 02-11-2008, 03:10 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Lonewolfblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Posts: 2,175
Lonewolfblue is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Yahoo to Lonewolfblue
Re: Remote collar training question

That's the key to everything. You HAVE to make yourself MORE INTERESTING. If you don't, it leads to failure. And it doesn't mean it will lead to a bad dog either, she just won't look up to you as the leader, someone she can trust and depend on.

And if you don't have that interest, then the E-collar will also fail. You can't force a dog to listen to you if she's not interested in you. It will just backfire.

Question, what kind of dog is she? This will greatly help those people in here that may have more knowlege of the particular breed or mix. Some breeds are more stubborn than others, and may have different ways to gain their particular interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcasby View Post
My biggest problem with traditional training methods is I have zero confidence in my ability to be successful. I can't imagine he choosing to come to me over 2 kids and the dog 1/4 mile away.
But you do have confidence, just not the know-how. You should never think of yourself as not having any confidence in yourself. Think Positive. That may be another reason she's not interested, as you aren't showing a Positive outlook. Remember, your dog feels what you feel. I felt similar to what you are when my Betty would keep lunging and lunging at other dogs, and not coming when called. The more down I felt, the more she was interested in OTHER THINGS. Now that I have more confidence in myself, it really shows in Betty. It's still an uphill battle, but it's one that is rewarding, watching her progress. Yes, you may have Low Confidence, but you do not have NO Confidence.... Keep Positive, and work towards being More Confident, and it WILL show in your dog.

Last edited by Lonewolfblue; 02-11-2008 at 03:21 PM.
Lonewolfblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2008, 03:32 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Northeastern US
Posts: 3,586
Elana55 will become famous soon enough
Re: Remote collar training question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcasby View Post
One of my problems is my dog considers me a complete and total bore. Couldn't care less when I come and go. Doesn't even look up when I come home. She is only interested in treats from me if she's hungry and nothing more interesting is around.

To her, everything is more interesting than me, even me with treats. She goes into paroxysms of joy when she sees one of my neighbors or any of the local kids. I'm talking off the wall bouncing, jumping, quaking with happiness..
If you punsih a dog this is EXACTLY the response you get. The dog won't be interested 9in you or happy to be with you because he has been punished by you.

Now that may not be what you have done, but when a dog is NOT ahppy to see you, that is usually the root cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcasby View Post
My biggest problem with traditional training methods is I have zero confidence in my ability to be successful. I can't imagine he choosing to come to me over 2 kids and the dog 1/4 mile away..
This sounds like issues you have that are removed from dog training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcasby View Post
What I can imagine is the annoying tickle (and that's what it is, I've felt it) of the e-collar snapping her attention away from the kids and the dog and her understanding that turning around and coming towards me will make it go away.
try not using aversive methods (punishment) for awhile. Try to get the dog interested in you by being happy and silly and playing. Try it. Try it with treats and with toys.

You need to work with your dog, not agains him.
Elana55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2008, 09:16 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
TooneyDogs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,972
TooneyDogs is on a distinguished road
Re: Remote collar training question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tcasby View Post
One of my problems is my dog considers me a complete and total bore. Couldn't care less when I come and go. Doesn't even look up when I come home. She is only interested in treats from me if she's hungry and nothing more interesting is around.

To her, everything is more interesting than me, even me with treats. She goes into paroxysms of joy when she sees one of my neighbors or any of the local kids. I'm talking off the wall bouncing, jumping, quaking with happiness.

My biggest problem with traditional training methods is I have zero confidence in my ability to be successful. I can't imagine he choosing to come to me over 2 kids and the dog 1/4 mile away.
This sounds like your instructors fault, not yours. That isn't motivation (bouncing around and acting foolish) and the (real) attention training seems to be non-existent.
What motivates your dog? Make a list and rank it.

Food (have at least 3 or 4 that she will definately work for and rank them)
Game of Fetch/Frisbee
Ride in the car
Walk
Swim
Play with another dog
Play with another person
Tug of War
Running/Jumping
Access to water (drinking)
Access to the couch
Squeaky toy
Petting/massage/Grooming

Every dog is different...add the things that excite her/things that you know she will work at to have and add them to your list.

Attention training takes many forms but, usually starts with food/eye contact, then static exercises, then moving exercises, introduction of distractions/proofing (sight, sound and smell) and finally introduction to new environments/new distractors.
And, here's the cardinal rule regarding attention....It is the dogs responsibilty to always pay attention to you. It is not your job to remind her of that. If you have to constantly ask her to watch you, you're on the wrong path to attention training. This doesn't mean that she cannot quickly glance around...she should, however, promptly look back to you. Some top obedience competitors will immediately correct any glance as a fault but, I feel that is a little overbearing.
TooneyDogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement
 
Advertisement
Sponsored links


To avoid seeing this ad in our forum please register at DogForums.com

By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features.
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


Dog Forums

dog sponsors









All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:05 PM.

dog forum - dog grooming forum - dog health forum - dog training forum - dog food forum

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.1.0
All Dog Forum Content © 2006 DogForums.comAd Management by RedTyger