[LMH]

I was on another forum and this girl told a story about her cousins dogs. She has 4. Two pits,father and daughter,a lab and another dog, i forgot what kind. She has always trained her dogs. the male pit has training certificates and she takes them places and they are just very well mannered. She let all the dogs out in the yard like she always does. They get along great. She went in the house for something , when she came out all but one ran to the door. The two pits were covered in blood. She went in the backyard and found one of her dogs dead. They think the female pit did the attacking. So her questions was how can these dogs turn on their own pack. Oh and the female was in heat but the father was neutered. Why do you think they turned on a pack member? So is it just not safe to have that many dogs even if they were raised together?

[4dogs3cats]

It all depends. I like to think mine would never turn on each other, but Moose bit Chances face one night over a bone. It didnt escalate thankfully, but you NEVER know what it was over... Thats so sad though.

[LMH]

It was very sad. Do you think the same result would happen if they were not pits? If a lab had been through tons of training and well socialized would they turn like this? I honestly just want to understand the breed more because I hear so many attack stories about them.I love all breeds and the pits that i have encountered have beed so so sweet, except for the one that tried to attack us on the street-haha. But I always blame the owner, well in this case it sounds like the owner was responsible in raising her dogs. My sister wants one and I thought if she raises it properly then it should be okay but reading this story scares me about it.

[Dakota Spirit]

Any good APBT enthusiast will be the first to tell you that they are a breed prone to dog-aggression. It's just a fact of life that many APBT owners know and accept.**

Another rule of thumb (in my house, anyhow) is NOT to ever allow a pack of dogs out playing unsupervised. Anything can happen, as you've seen.

The lastly, how do you know these dogs 'just turned'? They could have been fighting over a toy or something similar. I don't know if you've ever seen a dog fight but they can easy get carried away, pack members or not. So to answer your last question, you bet this can happen with other breeds.



**...and yeah, I'm a big time APBT lover so I'm not trying to contribute to their bad rap. As a good bully person though, you need to know these dog's personalties and what kind of traits are common in the breed.

[dayton&davan07]

I have a girlfriend who breeds pitts, she always says when the female is in heat she has to be seperated just cause she gets adjatated easily. It could have been that. I like pitts, but honestly I think any dog given enough teasing so to speak, from another, child, dog, owner, they will snap. That is really really sad. I feel bad for the owner. Sounds like she had most all her eggs in her basket. Things just happen though.

[4dogs3cats]

I do not know much about pitts. I try to educate myself. But I am still weary around them after one was at the dog park when me and my neighbor collectivelly had 5 dogs with us and it tried to kill a sheltie. I was so scared, didnt know where my dogs were. It was horrifying experience. The dog was wearing a thick chain with a big huge lock hanging off it. Its owner was clearly in it for the tough look.


I love pitbulls. I think they are the most adorable puppies and gorgeous dogs. I do not have the training needed to own one. I would have that thought in the back of my mind "What could happen if I take him outside?" And that energy would be put into the dog and we would be unstable. I praise responsble pitt owners out there, and I hope we can change the worlds view on them. unfortunately, people like Michael Vick arent helping.. Hey lets start a toy poodle fight ring and see if everyone get scared of them.(JUST KIDDING)

Back in the 70's everyone used to be scared of GSD's. Glad that that's changed!

[LMH]

Originally Posted by Dakota Spirit

Any good APBT enthusiast will be the first to tell you that they are a breed prone to dog-aggression. It's just a fact of life that many APBT owners know and accept.**

See-that's what I am looking for. I think some people are afraid to just say that. They are not always going to be great with other dogs. I can respect that and work with that. I hear one extreme that they are monsters(which I don't believe) and the other extreme that they are just like any other dog and it's all about the raising. It makes more sense that they are prone to be dog-aggressive and therefore need a very expererienced owner. Cuz they are wonderful dogs.

Originally Posted by Dakota Spirit

Another rule of thumb (in my house, anyhow) is NOT to ever allow a pack of dogs out playing unsupervised. Anything can happen, as you've seen..

That is something I will keep in mind when I eventually own more than one dog.

Originally Posted by Dakota Spirit

The lastly, how do you know these dogs 'just turned'? They could have been fighting over a toy or something similar. I don't know if you've ever seen a dog fight but they can easy get carried away, pack members or not. So to answer your last question, you bet this can happen with other breeds.

I know other breeds get in hightened level of fights, it just never seems to get that out of hand but I know with bigger dogs there is always bigger damage. That story just made me so sad, also sad for the breed because it already has such a bad rap.



**...and yeah, I'm a big time APBT lover so I'm not trying to contribute to their bad rap. As a good bully person though, you need to know these dog's personalties and what kind of traits are common in the breed. [/quote]

[lovemygreys]

I have always thought it is so very critical for owners to understand the purpose for which their dog was bred. My breed of choice is greyhounds - bred to chase first and ask questions later. That is THE reason I never risk my dog's lives by having them off leash in an unfenced area. I understand and respect what thousands of years of careful breeding has created in them.

I think the same is true of pits and beagles and border collies...every pure bred that was designed for a job. Respect their instincts because you NEVER know when their genes are going to override training. Our modern day pits have been bred for dog aggression. Every pit owner needs to remember that EVERY SINGLE day and EVERY SINGLE time their dog is with other dogs.

That said, ANY pack of dogs of ANY breed can and will fight if the stakes are high enough.

What a tragedy for those dogs

We've had a couple fights in our pack..always when we have just stepped away for a moment while they're in the yard. We don't know exactly what caused them because we didn't see them start, but we have some educated guesses. Unfortunately, greyhounds have ultra thin skin that doesn't take a lot of abuse, so a minor scuffle can end up in serious injury. For the most part, a healthy pack won't fight "to the death"....but they have personalities just like people and can get ticked off or annoyed or possessive of some special treat.

eta: Just had another thought. It's also important to remember that our pet dogs, even those that live in "packs" are not wolves or wild dogs. They live in a pack because humans put them in that situation. They don't rely on each other for survival like a wolf pack or other wild canids. We provide them everything they need - shelter, food, attention, medical care....There is, essentially, no function or purpose for the pack. In a survival situation that wild animals are in, cooperation is much more important...as is fighting to a draw, not to draw blood. An injured or dead pack mate isn't going to help bring home the next meal. Things our pet dogs never have to worry about.

[4dogs3cats]

I used to watch champion hunting GSP's when the owner went out of town. He had me let all 8 of the out at the same time. They ran around in their area and 4 of them attacked one and it was a bloody mess. We called the owner who said, "Oh that happened sometimes, just get the hose." Even champion bred dogs that were not bred for aggression can have these issues.

Thats so true about beagles too. No matter how much Kody loves me, if he sees something he wants to hunt, or smells a trail, he is gone and I'd better keep up. I cannot possibly scold him for this as this is what he was BRED for. Its in his BLOOD.

[sillylilykitty]

The female was in heat. IMO, that is a very good guess at why it happened. Just because the father was neutered doesnt mean he didnt try to get her. As a person who worked for a Chinese Shar Pei breeder, I know that female dogs in heat can get really angry and aggressive if a male pays her too much unwanted attention. And if the male doesnt become submissive enough, things can sometimes get real bad.

No fights ever happened when I was working but my boss (the breeder) did tell me about one of the newer females (more old style personality, more dog aggressive then her other Shar Peis) who was in heat and got irritated with the 13 year old male that was in the same yard. Wokman (the male) went to the vet ASAP with both ears almost ripped off and was beaten up pretty bad.

Female dogs in heat should be separated from everyone else!!!

[Dakota Spirit]

Originally Posted by LMH

I know other breeds get in hightened level of fights, it just never seems to get that out of hand but I know with bigger dogs there is always bigger damage. That story just made me so sad, also sad for the breed because it already has such a bad rap.

Makes me sad too, but I'm glad you sought answers rather then being scared off. That makes hope for the breed .

And I agree with lovemygreys 100%. You absolutely must understand the origins of your breed. Makes for fewer misunderstandings in the future - both for humans and dogs.

I missed the part in which there was a female dog in heat out there...but yeah that would be a big factor. No one acts themselves when in the presence of the scents and hormones put off by a female ready for breeding.

[wvasko]

People have to understand one very simple basic rule of thumb, serious breeders pick studs etc that will improve the breed. They breed for a purpose. I am not a Pit Bull expert, I don't know how old the breed is but I would guess at least 100 yrs. I'm going to assume that in the 100 or so years of continually breeding these dogs to fight. They have produced dogs that will fight at the drop of a hat. Think about it if all dogs have the ability to get in a fight, how about dogs that are bred for it. People are so surprised when this happens and I can't understand why. Now the best idea is to learn from this and take the proper precautions so it does not happen again. I am not trying to offend anybody and this is my opinion only.

[Dakota Spirit]

Originally Posted by wvasko

I'm going to assume that in the 100 or so years of continually breeding these dogs to fight. They have produced dogs that will fight at the drop of a hat.

Don't assume, because this isn't correct information. A sound APBT does not fight at the drop of a hat. Just like any other dog, they respond to some sort of stimulus. Whether or not a certain trait is more predominate (ie: Dog aggression, resource guarding) varies from dog to dog and should be handled accordingly by the owner.

Sorry, but that's the kind of statement that is getting so many innocent dogs in trouble.

[Shalva]

I find that with my seven retrievers, even a dog that is not bred to fight needs to be managed when the girls are in season.....

the girls are bitchy and the boys are bugging them (even a neutered male will bug them) and my boys are tense..... and we do alot of management when the girls come into season and I have retrievers not a breed that was bred to fight....

as always, it is the dogs that suffer when people don't know what they are doing.... all of those dogs should never have been let loose outside without supervision when the girl was in season.....

s

[4dogs3cats]

My brother is one of those "pitts are and always will be dangerous." What he doesnt realize it the dog has to be PROVOKED to fight. There is always an explination as to why dogs do things, we just may not be able to see it. Dogs look at us and wonder why we do the things we do. But they cant comprehend why because they are dogs, just like we cant comprehend why they do what they do.

My brother went on youtube and typed in pitbull attack child. He said hey Jenn come look at this. What I saw was video after video of him trying to find pitts attacking kids to show me how "dangerous" they are. Instead what I saw was videos of full grown fierce looking pittys loving children, licking them, sleeping next to them. Like Mr Poochs dogs. Your pitt must be pretty sound for you to allow it to sleep that close to your little girl.

Not all pitts were bred to fight. My beagle chases birds and ducks, not rabbits. He may be having an idenity crisis and think he is a plott or something. (haha RonE) but not all dogs do what you think they will do. Kody is registered in the national rabbit hound association. Yet he chases birds.

Im getting off point here. Not all pitts were bred to fight, a female in heat is probably the reason that what happened did.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Dakota Spirit

Don't assume, because this isn't correct information. A sound APBT does not fight at the drop of a hat. Just like any other dog, they respond to some sort of stimulus. Whether or not a certain trait is more predominate (ie: Dog aggression, resource guarding) varies from dog to dog and should be handled accordingly by the owner.

Sorry, but that's the kind of statement that is getting so many innocent dogs in trouble.

Dakota
Not trying to get dogs in trouble. There are thousands of Pit Bulls out there that would not bite a flea and are marvelous pets. I was making a statement that there are Pit Bulls that are bred strictly for their fighting ability. Just as there are Retrievers bred for their soft mouths and marking abilities, Pointers that are bred for their style on point. It's a fact, not a pleasant fact but there it is. I will in the future keep unpleasant truths out of my replies.

[Dakota Spirit]

I'm not saying to keep the truth out of your posts. I want people to understand APBTs before getting them - that's why I mentioned the dog aggression first off in my post.

My point was, your statement was not a truth. The fact that back in the breed heritage there is pit fighting does not mean the breed will fight at the drop of a hat. As I said, a sound APBT would need to be provoked just like any other dog. Sometimes the actual 'provoking' is something little that people either don't notice or fail to recognize. Or with a dog aggressive animal, putting it out with other animals would qualify as provoking - at least in my mind.

In this case given that there was a bitch in heat out playing with the pack, I'd wager to say breed had nothing to do with the resulting incidents.

Anyway, this is OT...so I'll leave it alone now.

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Dakota Spirit

I'm not saying to keep the truth out of your posts. I want people to understand APBTs before getting them - that's why I mentioned the dog aggression first off in my post.

My point was, your statement was not a truth. The fact that back in the breed heritage there is pit fighting does not mean the breed will fight at the drop of a hat. As I said, a sound APBT would need to be provoked just like any other dog. Sometimes the actual 'provoking' is something little that people either don't notice or fail to recognize. Or with a dog aggressive animal, putting it out with other animals would qualify as provoking - at least in my mind.

In this case given that there was a bitch in heat out playing with the pack, I'd wager to say breed had nothing to do with the resulting incidents.

Anyway, this is OT...so I'll leave it alone now.

I was making a statement that there are Pit Bulls that are bred strictly for their fighting ability.

I thought the above statement was self explanatory, I did not mention the whole breed. Just that there are Pit Bulls bred just for fighting that would fight at the drop of a hat. So I did not think I was stating an untruth as stated below. I also was not attempting to solve original poster's problem with a reply. Just trying to give be informative.

My point was, your statement was not a truth. The fact that back in the breed heritage there is pit fighting does not mean the breed will fight at the drop of a hat. As I said, a sound APBT would need to be provoked

You are correct in stating a SOUND ABPT would not fight and need to be provoked. Trust me, I'm not going anywhere near the breeding practises of ABPTs ethical or garbage breeder practises. I have already bitten off more than I can chew with this thread.