head collars

lab yell08 · 01-16-2008, 10:57 AM

head collars...pros and cons

lovemygreys · 01-16-2008, 11:06 AM

The Problem with Head Halters

I don't like them or use them. I think too many people rely on them as a crutch instead of a training tool.

lab yell08 · 01-16-2008, 11:32 AM

thanks, neighbor

lovemygreys · 01-16-2008, 11:54 AM

No problem, neighbor

Kari's Mom · 01-16-2008, 04:24 PM

Personally I think they're a great option, depending on your dog and the situation. I have seen many many dogs choking themselves with a buckle collar and the person who has no idea what to do. Ideally you should get training and train your dog to properly walk but a good choice for a 'quick fix' is a head collar. Personally I like the gentle leader, I have YET to see a dog that gets a head halter and doesn't improve instantly. Dogs tend to fight it at first but then calm right down. If you have a dog that is much bigger than you, stronger than you a head halter can help you get control of it. I always tell people its like a horse, I personally wouldn't have a 1200 lbs animal with just a collar and leash, animals are unperdictable. However, walking everyday, working on simple commands than a dog can easily be walked at a heel on a regular collar.

lab yell08 · 01-16-2008, 05:10 PM

thanks Kari's Mom...good insight

lovemygreys · 01-16-2008, 05:19 PM

Quote:

I always tell people its like a horse, I personally wouldn't have a 1200 lbs animal with just a collar and leash, animals are unperdictable.

That's actually specifically addressed in the article I referenced above...but it's not a valid comparison according to the author, who I tend to agree with on most things...including this one.

Every training tool can have a valid purpose. Most people I know use a head halter to band aid a dog's behavior that they otherwise don't want to deal with. If a dog jumps up on me and I whack a bat over it's head, it probably won't do that too many more times. My "method" is effective in stopping the behavior...but it doesn't mean it's in any way right or appropriate or humane.

TooneyDogs · 01-16-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lab yell08

head collars...pros and cons

All of the headcollars are bandaids for solving a problem. What it really comes down to is what kind of a trainer do you want to be?
Ted Turner, the head trainer of SeaWorld, once challenged a roomful of dog trainers with the following question..."If I can train killer whales and birds without a collar and leash...why can't you train your dogs without them?...your dogs are certainly smarter."

lovemygreys · 01-16-2008, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

Ted Turner, the head trainer of SeaWorld, once challenged a roomful of dog trainers with the following question..."If I can train killer whales and birds without a collar and leash...why can't you train your dogs without them?...your dogs are certainly smarter."

That's really interesting. When I started working w/Marco I was using a leash. UGH. It was always in the way and distracting but I thought that was the only way I could keep him close to me (which would make him focus on me). One day I had no leashes down in the kennel so I just didn't use one. We've been leash free ever since and I think our training has progressed faster and faster. His connection is to me is voluntary - not forced or artificial. I'm slowly introducing distractions and he's doing marvelously. I was really surprised at how well his "heel" has come along. His leash walking has improved markedly as well...he was never that really bad.

eta: I just want to say that when we aren't in a secure area I *always* have my dogs on a collar and leash. I don't believe in gambling my dog's life on their obedience skills.

wvasko · 01-17-2008, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

That's really interesting. When I started working w/Marco I was using a leash. UGH. It was always in the way and distracting but I thought that was the only way I could keep him close to me (which would make him focus on me). One day I had no leashes down in the kennel so I just didn't use one. We've been leash free ever since and I think our training has progressed faster and faster. His connection is to me is voluntary - not forced or artificial. I'm slowly introducing distractions and he's doing marvelously. I was really surprised at how well his "heel" has come along. His leash walking has improved markedly as well...he was never that really bad.

eta: I just want to say that when we aren't in a secure area I *always* have my dogs on a collar and leash. I don't believe in gambling my dog's life on their obedience skills.

I think obviously that Ted Turner to do the work he does is mind boggling. That said I always tell my customers when they pick up their dogs or even when they 1st call to ask about training their dog that there is one thing I can't do. I cannot drive to their house and beat them up to make them work their dog when my training is finished. Everybody laughs, but it's my experience the people work their dogs 2 or 3 weeks after training is done and thats it. I even explain that they will have wasted their money and I will have spent the money. The point is I train dog for 30 days then customers train maybe 2 or 3 weeks etc (not all) Even Ted could not get his killer whales trained in that time span. Lots of people just don't follow up on the work. whether your training whales or dogs it takes work and time.

TooneyDogs · 01-17-2008, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

eta: I just want to say that when we aren't in a secure area I *always* have my dogs on a collar and leash. I don't believe in gambling my dog's life on their obedience skills.

Absolutely! If we would think of the leash and collar as safety lines instead of training tools (no leash pops/collar corrections) we, and our dogs, would be alot better off.

Kari's Mom · 01-17-2008, 08:59 AM

heres the problem with non leash training, no everyone has a safe environment to train their dog, not everyone has a 6 foot (or 8 to 12 depending on your breed of dog) stockade fence or a house free of distractions. Most of people wait until their dog is out of control to start training, if life was rainbows and sunshine everyone would start from week #8 and train their dogs perfectly, know all of the positive reheinforcement techniques, feed the right food, etc. But take off the rose colored glasses, most training 'aids' are band aids, the article seemed to be one persons opinion which I don't totally agree with. I have seen more progress with a head collar than a prong collar or choke chain, and thats my opinion which I am allowed to have. I wish everyone had the knowledge to not use quick fixes but most people just don't. I always try to tell people to take a class, but if they don't I think giving them a 10 minute tutorial on a head collar vs nothing can help them walk their out of control dog, (instead of pulling arm out of socket) to calm him down. A tired dog is a good dog and some breeds once you get the edge off they can be trained, otherwise they cannot.

wvasko · 01-17-2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kari's Mom

heres the problem with non leash training, no everyone has a safe environment to train their dog, not everyone has a 6 foot (or 8 to 12 depending on your breed of dog) stockade fence or a house free of distractions. Most of people wait until their dog is out of control to start training, if life was rainbows and sunshine everyone would start from week #8 and train their dogs perfectly, know all of the positive reheinforcement techniques, feed the right food, etc. But take off the rose colored glasses, most training 'aids' are band aids, the article seemed to be one persons opinion which I don't totally agree with. I have seen more progress with a head collar than a prong collar or choke chain, and thats my opinion which I am allowed to have. I wish everyone had the knowledge to not use quick fixes but most people just don't. I always try to tell people to take a class, but if they don't I think giving them a 10 minute tutorial on a head collar vs nothing can help them walk their out of control dog, (instead of pulling arm out of socket) to calm him down. A tired dog is a good dog and some breeds once you get the edge off they can be trained, otherwise they cannot.

but if they don't I think giving them a 10 minute tutorial on a head collar vs nothing can help them walk their out of control dog, (instead of pulling arm out of socket) to calm him down. A tired dog is a good dog and some breeds once you get the edge off they can be trained, otherwise they cannot.

Well put.
I wonder how many dogs get dumped for lack of a little control that the head halter would a godsend. I agree with the statements about the band aid approach.

if life was rainbows and sunshine everyone would start from week #8 and train their dogs perfectly, know all of the positive reheinforcement techniques, feed the right food, etc.

As we all know the above is nowhere near the real world that we all live in. People and dogs got to get through it the best way they can.

lovemygreys · 01-17-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

heres the problem with non leash training, no everyone has a safe environment to train their dog, not everyone has a 6 foot (or 8 to 12 depending on your breed of dog) stockade fence or a house free of distractions.

I think that's a cop out. Everyone has a room in their house where they can close the door and do some training. And behavior modification doesn't even need a "formal training" environment. Our dogs are *always* learning- 24/7. That's not to say that leashed training is worthless...it absolutely does work. I think the bigger point is that leashes, head halters, prong collars, <insert training aid> are just tools and that an important part of training for long term behavior modification is the relationship between handler and dog.

Quote:

But take off the rose colored glasses, most training 'aids' are band aids, the article seemed to be one persons opinion which I don't totally agree with.

Of course the article is person's opinion! Granted, Suzanne Clothier is considered to be an expert in her field...but at the end of the day her articles are her opinion. I posted it because I think it has valuable information. People can take whatever they want from it.

Quote:

I have seen more progress with a head collar than a prong collar or choke chain, and thats my opinion which I am allowed to have. I wish everyone had the knowledge to not use quick fixes but most people just don't. I always try to tell people to take a class, but if they don't I think giving them a 10 minute tutorial on a head collar vs nothing can help them walk their out of control dog, (instead of pulling arm out of socket) to calm him down. A tired dog is a good dog and some breeds once you get the edge off they can be trained, otherwise they cannot.

I think people who have out of control dogs have dogs that are out of control in more areas of life than just leash walking. People want a quick fix to everything. Put a head halter to "fix" pulling on a leash. Use an e-collar to "fix" barking. People who rely on these tools without behavior mod to back them up and eventually wean off of them don't have a "fixed" dog. They've got a dog who's behavior is masked and is still probably under exercised and under trained. A frustrated dog is going to find a way to vent that frustration one way or the other. For those owners, the head halter may be a short term solution.

I've seen too many trainers very quick to recommend a head halter - even for breeds for which it is *entirely* inappropriate to the point of being unsafe (greyhounds specifically.)

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions

That's what makes the world go round.

SMoore · 01-17-2008, 10:36 AM

I use one when I take my collie/pyrenese mix to any pet store where other dogs may be around. She walks lovely on a regular collar/leash but she does have some fear aggression issues with other dogs. She's A LOT better than when I first adopted her but just to be safe I use one with a martingale just in case. For regular walks I just use a martingale just because i've had dogs slip collars before and i feel safe using one.

wvasko · 01-17-2008, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMoore

I use one when I take my collie/pyrenese mix to any pet store where other dogs may be around. She walks lovely on a regular collar/leash but she does have some fear aggression issues with other dogs. She's A LOT better than when I first adopted her but just to be safe I use one with a martingale just in case. For regular walks I just use a martingale just because i've had dogs slip collars before and i feel safe using one.

Don't you just love the martingale, absolutely safe and humane.

SMoore · 01-17-2008, 11:43 AM

I had never even heard of a martingale until a few years ago. I used to foster animals from a humane society and when I fostered Naomi (my collie mix with aggression issues) they gave me a regular leash and a pinch collar with her. I didn't think much of it at the time I figured if it came with her she needed it. I only had her a week or two before she slipped the pinch collar. It was pretty crazy she jumped up on me and then backed out of it. Luckily she didn't go anywhere. She just rolled over on her back like she had done something wrong.

After that I bought a gentle leader and a martingale and haven't looked back. She doesn't pull so it doesn't choke her and the only time it tightens is if she does start to go after another dog or for some reason pull at the leash and she hasn't been able to slip it yet. I work at a pet store and anytime I see someone buying a choke chain or pinch collar I talk to them about the martingale. Quite a few people end up changing their mind and trying it out.

TooneyDogs · 01-17-2008, 11:45 AM

Somewhere, somehow dog training got twisted. People seem to be in such a hurry today and want to skip all the training exercises leading up to walking nicely. Part of the twisted training logic is, "first put on a device to get control of the dog".
Well, that's step twenty or thirty after building trust, confidence, attention and communication skills. We're not doing any favors for either the owner or the dog by skipping that critical life skills training. IMO, if someone wants to skip all that and just take their dog for walk, they shouldn't have a dog ...if those are rose colored glasses, I'd rather wear them then see the dogs ending up in shelters or watch the dogs walking down the street wearing a head halter at the end of a flexi....which I see everyday on the trail in front of my house and it makes me want to cry.

wvasko · 01-17-2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TooneyDogs

Somewhere, somehow dog training got twisted. People seem to be in such a hurry today and want to skip all the training exercises leading up to walking nicely. Part of the twisted training logic is, "first put on a device to get control of the dog".
Well, that's step twenty or thirty after building trust, confidence, attention and communication skills. We're not doing any favors for either the owner or the dog by skipping that critical life skills training. IMO, if someone wants to skip all that and just take their dog for walk, they shouldn't have a dog ...if those are rose colored glasses, I'd rather wear them then see the dogs ending up in shelters or watch the dogs walking down the street wearing a head halter at the end of a flexi....which I see everyday on the trail in front of my house and it makes me want to cry.

I understand what your saying but if there is absolutely no control of the dog, they will not keep dog long enough to get training of any kind. This is the PC age and the I want it now age, and the me age. How bout the Paris Hilton carry dog around in purse age. It doesn't appear that we will ever have a common sense age. Don't cry, teach and make it better.

gonewalking · 01-17-2008, 08:57 PM

I used one on a 1 1/2 yr old Brittany mix we adopted,it was a good way to start the training but we have since stopped using it and gone to the loose leash type of walking.It has been challenging but it will be worth it in the end.I felt it was becoming a crutch,but now we are kind of learning together.I was also tired of the odd looks from people who thought my dog needed a muzzle.