Clients and Cesar Milan >.<

Kari's Mom · 01-16-2008, 09:59 AM

Just a little rant, not sure if it belongs in the training section, feel free to move it if not.

So anyway, I work for a retail company doing dog training, and lately we were selling Cesar Milan's Dog Whisperer season one and two on dvd. I enjoy watching the show but some of his stuff is downright dangerous (for your average person to perform) yet I keep hearing people who tell me they try what Cesar is doing. A young-er girl who has a private class with her dog (boxer) is driving me crazy. Every minute its 'well Cesar says I should do this' or 'well I saw Cesar do this last night'. I was like for the love of god, that 'shh!' noise and touching your dogs neck and (wrongly!) choking your dog with a choke chain or prong collar is not going to fix your problem. Why do people not seem to get what Cesar is doing, its not an instructional video! They never take the parts that they SHOULD get out of it. (Like if your dog is out of control maybe you should think about WALKING HIM! Or your dog is a dog) I continue to explain I teach mostly positive reinforcement and do not allow chain collars or pinch collars in class. I do not allow leash pops in class. Fixing problems and training need to be separated in peoples mind yet ultimately have the same goal. Egh. Sorry for the rant but if I have one more client who tells me Cesar blah blah blah and does exactly what he is preaching not to do, I will have to beat them over the head with his dvd.

harrise · 01-16-2008, 10:05 AM

Heh. "But he has the whole backyard to himself..."
Luckily my everyday walking has gotten some of the neighbors to walk theirs too. One group of ten pound yappers at the end of the block have almost completely stopped charging the fence when I go by. All from walking, who'd a thunk it.

lovemygreys · 01-16-2008, 10:11 AM

I'm sorry...but I have to admit to chuckling at the mental image of you banging some idiot owner over the head with a Cesar DVD LOL.

It is frightening sometimes how clueless some owners are.

Curbside Prophet · 01-16-2008, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Why do people not seem to get what Cesar is doing, its not an instructional video! They never take the parts that they SHOULD get out of it. (Like if your dog is out of control maybe you should think about WALKING HIM! Or your dog is a dog) I continue to explain I teach mostly positive reinforcement and do not allow chain collars or pinch collars in class. I do not allow leash pops in class. Fixing problems and training need to be separated in peoples mind yet ultimately have the same goal.

Why? People want a quick fix, and they are okay with justifying punishment with belief. Why? Marketing… Each scenario starts with a highlight of how ‘out of control’ a dog is, and the owners complaining about the dog’s behaviors. The scenario ends with these same owners claiming Cesar should be adopted for sainthood. This creates a mystery, a mystery all dog owners want with their own dog(s). So, by emulating Cesar, they are trying to attain that mystery. Why? The show is not exclusively about dogs that need “rehabilitation”…most of the dogs have common problems that the common dog owner can identify with. Why? Dog owners, and even some dog trainers, don’t know what punishment is, when it’s appropriate, or how to use them effectively.

wvasko · 01-16-2008, 12:05 PM

Egh. Sorry for the rant but if I have one more client who tells me Cesar blah blah blah and does exactly what he is preaching not to do, I will have to beat them over the head with his dvd.

Boy that beating over the head is definitely not positive motivation. You got to practice what you preach.

Devi · 01-16-2008, 12:48 PM

I've definitely heard that rant from my family members who are basically clueless when it comes to dogs. I'll admit, I agree with a lot of what Cesar does, but it has to be done CORRECTLY, meaning your average Joe shouldn't go around trying to rehabilitate dogs. That's why they say not to attempt the techniques yourself at the beginning of each show! I use a lot of his techniques, combined with NILF training, but I also have experience working with professional trainers that use those techniques on a regular basis.

I definitely agree that it's annoying when people will read his book or watch his show and think that they're an expert. I honestly think the hype gives him a really bad name, since people are going out trying out his techniques incorrectly.

Amberjam · 01-16-2008, 01:26 PM

you mean that because i watch the dog whisperer almost every week i shouldnt try to rehabilitate that nasty junkyard dog that tries to rip my head off when i walk past it. you mean i shouldnt go right up to it and give him a "shh" poke in the neck lol...

i do like his show though. it is interesting, but i completely get it that tv teaching does not make us all professionals... but what a wonderful thing if it could lol!!

Kari's Mom · 01-16-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvasko

Egh. Sorry for the rant but if I have one more client who tells me Cesar blah blah blah and does exactly what he is preaching not to do, I will have to beat them over the head with his dvd.

Boy that beating over the head is definitely not positive motivation. You got to practice what you preach.

lmao, but the satisfaction would be worth it!!

Most people do want a quick fix, thats why there's prong collars, chain collars, remote collars, bark collars, etc. People don't want to see the root of their dogs problem is mostly themselves, I personally think thats what Cesar says most of the time. HE TRAINS PEOPLE! I think more and more I need to use remote training and clicker training with the owners, see which one they like more

Elana55 · 01-16-2008, 01:43 PM

Oh yeah.. E-collars for them all. LOL

(owners that is, not the dogs)

GreatDaneMom · 01-16-2008, 02:07 PM

Ugh, theres a woman at the dog park whos all about cesar. ive seen her pin her dog on its back more than once, and constantly does the "shh" and leash pop. what peeves me off the most is the one day theres was an "incident". a guy who owns a beautiful germ. shep. whos a little timid (not his fault, he just got the dog and is trying to fix that) came to the park. now the park is an island, and there is an arched bridge to get to it, on the other side of the bridge.... the parking lot *dunn dunn dunnnnnnn* yes, you all know what that means. (i cant tell you how many times ive almost seen dogs get hit because owners think its ok that they are offleash in the parking lot...hello!) anywho! the guy let his dog off the leash too close to the bridge (yes, thats his fault, but everyone makes mistakes) well the womans two dogs ran up to him and he got terrified and booked it over the bridge....of course, theyre dogs, they followed. (one is a pup mind you, maybe 8 months) so there she is, with her BABY STROLLER standing there yelling for him... meanwhile im getting my two on leashes so i can help out. (mine never chased, i said no, they didnt go..simple as that) finally the dogs all come back in and what does she do? pin the PUP on his back and yells "no!".... ok lady, A. hes a DOG he did what he thought was fun. B. hes already forgotten what happened and doesnt know why youre mad! and she turns to me with the "well cesar says to do this" and i just kept my mouth shut. but oh did i want to give her a mouthfull.

but as far as choke and prong collars go. choke i dont agree with AT ALL. but i do use prongs on my girls right now. but they only wear them on walks, and out in public where there are other dogs (petsmart, etc.) and walking over the bridge into the park (or else when its snowy like it is now....i turn into a sled) but its not a quick fix and i understand that. they dont wear them all the time (especially not to play, which i have seen at the dog park and it KILLS me... that and leaving the leash on dragging around, why dont they understand thats dangerous!!) and i work with them with walking without them on at home. i just need some extra control to help them when things get a little crazy. and theyre great on them, of course i never snap them or anything, and the only pressure they get is when they try to pull, and they dont. but no, i know its not a quick fix, and if it hurt them i wouldnt use it. i made sure it wouldnt either (i used it on myself)..... no, not like that...lol

Curbside Prophet · 01-16-2008, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elana55

Oh yeah.. E-collars for them all. LOL

May I have the remote?

RBark · 01-16-2008, 03:05 PM

My father used one of those uncontrollable e-collars on one of his labs.

I was curious so I decided to put it on my younger brother (I was about 10, he was 9) and I shocked him.

I think I shortened his lifespan 10 years.

That said, my dad stopped using it after one rainy day, the lab was outside crying constantly so he used it to shut him up. The next thing they see is a bright blue flash like a thunder, and a dog that never whined again.

He got rid of the collar and decided to never use it again.

Devi · 01-16-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreatDaneMom

Ugh, theres a woman at the dog park whos all about cesar. ive seen her pin her dog on its back more than once, and constantly does the "shh" and leash pop. what peeves me off the most is the one day theres was an "incident". a guy who owns a beautiful germ. shep. whos a little timid (not his fault, he just got the dog and is trying to fix that) came to the park. now the park is an island, and there is an arched bridge to get to it, on the other side of the bridge.... the parking lot *dunn dunn dunnnnnnn* yes, you all know what that means. (i cant tell you how many times ive almost seen dogs get hit because owners think its ok that they are offleash in the parking lot...hello!) anywho! the guy let his dog off the leash too close to the bridge (yes, thats his fault, but everyone makes mistakes) well the womans two dogs ran up to him and he got terrified and booked it over the bridge....of course, theyre dogs, they followed. (one is a pup mind you, maybe 8 months) so there she is, with her BABY STROLLER standing there yelling for him... meanwhile im getting my two on leashes so i can help out. (mine never chased, i said no, they didnt go..simple as that) finally the dogs all come back in and what does she do? pin the PUP on his back and yells "no!".... ok lady, A. hes a DOG he did what he thought was fun. B. hes already forgotten what happened and doesnt know why youre mad! and she turns to me with the "well cesar says to do this" and i just kept my mouth shut. but oh did i want to give her a mouthfull.

but as far as choke and prong collars go. choke i dont agree with AT ALL. but i do use prongs on my girls right now. but they only wear them on walks, and out in public where there are other dogs (petsmart, etc.) and walking over the bridge into the park (or else when its snowy like it is now....i turn into a sled) but its not a quick fix and i understand that. they dont wear them all the time (especially not to play, which i have seen at the dog park and it KILLS me... that and leaving the leash on dragging around, why dont they understand thats dangerous!!) and i work with them with walking without them on at home. i just need some extra control to help them when things get a little crazy. and theyre great on them, of course i never snap them or anything, and the only pressure they get is when they try to pull, and they dont. but no, i know its not a quick fix, and if it hurt them i wouldnt use it. i made sure it wouldnt either (i used it on myself)..... no, not like that...lol

I use a prong collar on my dog too, but only for walks. It works like a "mouth" to grab his attention and seems to be the only collar that works for him when he's on leash. It gets taken off in the house and at the park though.

Forcing a dog to submit is a LAST RESORT option! Too many people do this right off the bat and it is completely unnecessary. My dog is a very dominant male and I've only had to do this maybe 3 times in his lifetime and it's from him being aggressive towards another dog enough that a quick touch correction and a sharp, NO, wouldn't snap him out of it. But, like I said before, you have to know how to do it correctly and use it in the right situation.

Dog parks can either be fun or a horrible place to go. I love going when the owners have control over their dogs and everyone plays nice. I completely hate having to "babysit" other people's dogs because they rather stand and talk to the other owners and let their dogs run a muck.

GreatDaneMom · 01-16-2008, 03:43 PM

its great when the 4:00 "regulars" are there. there are some regulars that come at all different times of day, but some... i just cant stand. theres a dobie that goes and he has on more than one occation pinned my older dane down with his mouth around her neck and she screams! and they just tell him "easy", while im trying to get my girl away from him. my gosh, i want to slap them. they just dont get that letting him go after other dogs (he will go at them barking and bearing his teeth and try to pin them down on their backs like he did to mine) isnt allowed! telling him "easy" doesnt work! hello!!!!??? anyone ever heard of "control"? those are the people that make me mad. and the ones that their dog runs into the muddy nasty creek and then they jump all over people. eew. like i want to smell like that! i dont know, maybe im just missing something because my girls wont go in the nasty water? or maybe i should pin them down and yell "YOU WILL SWIMMMM!!!" and then throw them in....

Kari's Mom · 01-16-2008, 03:54 PM

I have no issue with prong/pinch or remote trainers if used by a PROFESSIONAL, properly and as a last resort. I personally feel that if they're coming to my store to train I want to see if we can start the right way. I have suggest a prong to a woman (maybe 115lbs?) for her 175 lbs mastiff that had already pulled her arm out of socket! However, so many people dont know what they're doing. I can't count how many times I've seen someone bring there dog in on a prong/choke chain WITH a flexi lead. I try to tell me they just need to be educated but some how I don't see how someone can really do that. Tools used right can speed up training or aid to a dog that is totally out of control but still. >.<

GreatDaneMom · 01-16-2008, 04:24 PM

ugh, i hate flexi's theyre nothing but trouble. no actually i have for my one, a regular leash with the extra loop by the bottom and when she wears the prong, we use that loop. and the other i have her regular leash, but then i have a leash thats just a loop with a snap for when she has her prong on. my girls are too big that i cant do the "if they pull you stop walking" without a prong because if i do....well.... just picture that....

Elana55 · 01-16-2008, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBark

My father used one of those uncontrollable e-collars on one of his labs.

I was curious so I decided to put it on my younger brother (I was about 10, he was 9) and I shocked him.

I think I shortened his lifespan 10 years.

Now THAT is funny.
I can think of a few dates I could have used that baby on...... ya know.. the ones you want to shorten all the way back to when you said "yes" when they asked you out....

doghollerer · 01-16-2008, 09:10 PM

Devi is dead on. I ignored the warnings and tried the "pit maneuver" (thats what I call it when he pins the dogs down) a few times on my puppy. It scared the crap out of my young son who thought I was choking her. I also tried the shh and the poke on the neck. None of this did anything but confuse the heck out of my puppy. I hope I didn't do irreparable damage to her. I have sense stopped and started following the adivce on this site. Cesar's methods apparently work for him and the dogs that need rehabiliation. I am going to use other methods.

sillylilykitty · 01-17-2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RBark

That said, my dad stopped using it after one rainy day, the lab was outside crying constantly so he used it to shut him up. The next thing they see is a bright blue flash like a thunder, and a dog that never whined again.

He got rid of the collar and decided to never use it again.

Did the dog die?

RBark · 01-18-2008, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sillylilykitty

Did the dog die?

Er, I can see how it may seem like I said that. No, he did not die. But he never whined about being outside by himself again. He decided to use less extreme methods (which isn't saying much - all of his dog training knowledge came from the people he hunted with, which are all manly men who think of dogs only as tools.)

Said dog lived to about 12, when climbed over a 8' tall fence and got hit by a car. We were all very sad.